Tax returns – should they all be public?

Folk who are PAYE seem to think that anyone self-employed/contractor pays no tax at all.

I should probably add, as it was me what started all this and thinks it’s a good idea, that I’m a Ltd-Co, self employed contractor.

Don’t really see the point, nor do I really see the scandal in this. rich people hide their money, well I never.

Public tax returns wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference.

Joe – it would keep accountants even busier!!!

haha, aye fair point! 😆

B r I’m looking at this as an employee.

The concern is that self assessment requires everyone to play fair. You might but the fact is some do not.

I’m all for tax returns being public.

However, the reason for collective anger is undeclared income, or wealth that has been moved overseas and as such is not included in tax return calculations.

Publishing tax return information changes nothing, however punitive legislation to close loopholes and ensure that the filthy rich can’t move money around to avoid paying tax will change behaviour.

What question is publishing your tax return actually answering? It’s not clear to me.

This argument to me is very similar to the athletes publishing power data, it makes people look clean but in reality is no such thing, as you’d have to be a dumbass to publish anything dodgy.

matydubz – Member
B r I’m looking at this as an employee.

The concern is that self assessment requires everyone to play fair. You might but the fact is some do not.

So how do public tax records stop joe blogs from not registering that cash in hand job with his accountant?

It’s just the usually reactionary nonsense.

It wouldn’t necessarily stop but it would make people think about what they declare.

What question is publishing your tax return actually answering? It’s not clear to me.

Well we know now that the guy who “runs” the country needs some help. Keeps large sums of money in the bank (a bank?) earning a negative real return (muppet), has no direct investments in any UK companies (how unpatriotic) etc – and he makes important decisions that affect the rest of us. Seems very out-of-touch to me….

Ecky-Thump – Member

Nope. That’s HMRC’s job, not Joe Public’s

The chief executive officer of HMRC considers tax to be legalised extortion, has previously campaigned against tax avoidance legislation, and made his career in helping companies reduce tax payments…

In answer to the original Q, No.

I’m not sure what publishing would help with anyway. Where people are using methods to avoid tax (publicly acceptable or not) these don’t show up. So you would have no idea what people were up to.

Well we know now that the guy who “runs” the country needs some help. Keeps large sums of money in the bank (a bank?) earning a negative real return (muppet), has no direct investments in any UK companies (how unpatriotic) etc – and he makes important decisions that affect the rest of us. Seems very out-of-touch to me….

To be fair, I think it’s pretty admirable that he sold all his investments, so as not to have any conflicts of interest, prior to becoming PM.

What question is publishing your tax return actually answering? It’s not clear to me

Surely fiscal transparency is a good thing in a democracy?

I don’t see any real arguments for privacy other than ‘it’s none of your business’, which is pretty weak as we’re all part of the same society which is held together by mutual help (no matter how much some might protest).

I know FF, it was a joke. Keeping in the spirit of the current debate.

But it really is bllx – as always laws and reform drawn to react to events are rarely sensible.

There is some wonderful emphasis and excitement on the news reports now. F me the desperation is palpable – and he latest on BBC is that Jezza has lost his returns – WGAF?

To be fair, I think it’s pretty admirable that he sold all his investments, so as not to have any conflicts of interest, prior to becoming PM.

+1

It is right that Norway publish all their tax returns, it is also right that people continually shop their neighbours for tax avoidance and that they have a small minded and provincial approach to life.

I prefer living in an open and liberal country.

EDIT:

I don’t see any real arguments for privacy other than ‘it’s none of your business’

Tell me about your sex life.

No. If they had to be published it would be a major disincentive for me to work in the UK. FWIW I’ve worked under PAYE for vast majority of my career and I hold this view. Nobodies business except hmrc what individuals earn. Summary info is published now for banks and imo it adds zero other than clickbait headlines

OP good idea to start a seperate thread on a specific question, the Panama thread has decended as is often the case on STW into personal insults.

@tmh so jezza didn’t do them online ? If done online they hold all the records available immediately

And it would appear that the BBC pension fund uses a fund manager based in the Bahamas !

Can you get iPlayer out there ?

@allthepies – via vpn yes 🙂

As per Sky News commentary no government of any colour is going to introduce this as its a guaranteed massive vote loser

Publishing Tax returns may make it easy to see whose house is worth burgling or whose child to kidnap but i can’t see how it will expose any dodgy dealing Tax Returns are designed and intended to either be legit or look legit.

What would be far more effective would be to recruit and unleash some aggressive tax inspectors, put as much vigour and resources into investigating tax avoidance as we put into benefit fraud.

The chief executive officer of HMRC considers tax to be legalised extortion, has previously campaigned against tax avoidance legislation, and made his career in helping companies reduce tax payments…

This is again completely unfair as he was arguing the case for simplification as the best way to reduce avoidance and was just explaining the legal framework which allows governments to tax. Likewise, his GAAR point was simply that a GAAR completely in the power of HMRC was unfair. At the time most professionals were in favour of a pre-clearance system, but HMRC have always resisted this because of its cost. Now the concern is met by requiring HMRC to go to an independent panel before trying to apply it.

He was a tax partner at a medium sized City firm though, but everyone is entitled to advice, his reputation was a very straight adviser.

Tell me about your sex life.

Hardly a comparable subject.

Tax revenue pays for all the services we all use everyday and without it we’d have no society. So, in the interests of open democracy, being able to see that everyone else pays their dues could be argued to be beneficial.

Can we have a thread on Greybull Capital – saviours of Tata Scunthorpe?

How transparent is the holier than thou Newpaper that is making the most of all this!?!

Here’s a thought reduce the likes of income and corporation tax and wack up VAT. Far harder to avoid unless you are a regular at your local under the counter booze and fags shop.

In the spirit of transparency can we also have go pro cameras on everyone to make sure that they are working and not skiving and a block on fora use during work hours? Surfing the net instead of working is essentially theft too…..

I think anyone believing that publishing tax returns – anyones tax returns – is a way to stop people avoiding taxes is being very, very naïve.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Tory backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg, said: “The mood has become very clear that all MPs within a year or two will be publishing their returns and I’m not going to be the one to hold out against that.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/11/osborne-likely-to-publish-tax-returns-as-pm-prepares-to-face-mps

Interesting this could, over time change public opinion towards tax transparency.

After all drink driving was considered socially acceptable only 20 years ago….

Here’s a thought reduce the likes of income and corporation tax and wack up VAT. Far harder to avoid unless you are a regular at your local under the counter booze and fags shop.

It disproportionately affects the poor though.

And has no affect on say millions held in investments and trusts, or rental income etc.

I think anyone believing that publishing tax returns – anyones tax returns – is a way to stop people avoiding taxes is being very, very naïve.

It’s not a miracle cure, but it’s a step in the right direction.

From another thread that has just been closed 🙁

Why are tax avoidance and tax evasion 2 distinct things? why aren’t they one and the same?

One is legal, one isn’t.

And most people do tax avoidance. Cycle to work, Childcare vouchers, etc etc

It’s not a miracle cure, but it’s a step in the right direction.

It will make evasion more attractive because not only will you not pay tax you will keep that source of money private.

The most common sense I’ve seen on the whole subject came from Martin “moneysavingexpert” Lewis yesterday, and I **** hate him generally for some of the shit storm he has thrown in my line of work in the past.

It will make evasion more attractive because not only will you not pay tax you will keep that source of money private.

Only if people are more concerned about hiding the source than they are about avoiding tax, which is debatable.

The current system, which is completely untransparent, is conducive to tax evasion as visibility is non existent. Open up the Kimono, so to speak, will only make it harder to hide things.

It is transparent to the authorities, they can ask pretty much anything they like HMRC used to have more powers that the police – not sure of present position.

I know alot of wealthy people who if you met them you would have no idea of the extent of their wealth – they live like that because they want to be judged on their own merits, not based on their wealth. I want to live in the society that gives people the freedom to do that.

I don’t see any real arguments for privacy other than ‘it’s none of your business’, which is pretty weak

It’s not weak though is it.

My tax situation isn’t any of your business, and there is absolutely no good reason why you need to know about it either.

Which explains very simply, why you don’t know, and why there is no way for you to find out.

I’d say that’s a pretty strong argument.

I have nothing to hide but I don’t want anyone to find out my income details, what’s the point? We need to trust our MPs, so maybe there’s a point there, but for the rest of us? Tax inspectors are there to ensure we are declaring what we should.

What are we expecting to see on returns that’s of any use to finding out dodgy people? We can do something tax inspectors can’t?

After all drink driving was considered socially acceptable only 20 years ago….

I’ve been driving nearly 35 years, and it wasn’t socially acceptable when I started – at least it wasn’t in the society I kept…

What are we expecting to see on returns that’s of any use to finding out dodgy people? We can do something tax inspectors can’t?

HMRC is pretty non joined up so it’s quite easy to avoid tax on income, by just not declaring it. The argument for transparency is that if you’re declaring, say £15k a year income, but living in a £1m house with two RRs on the drive, odds are you’re probably not declaring everything and might be less inclined to lie on your tax return if it’s public info.