[Closed] talk to me about the attack position in relaction to arm position/ bar height

How long is the reach on your bike, how long is your stem, how wide are your bars and how long are your back and arms? I'd have thought you'd want the lowest possible bars on an Enduro 29 unless you're really tall.

If your back is parallel to top tube, as it should be , your arms will be at correct angle surely

If your back is parallel to top tube

Attack position on a TT bike ? 😆

😉

For me it is more about feet-bar 'shape' and distance, when stood in attack position. My back is low, but not parallel to top tube...I dont think...

talk to me about the attack position in relaction to arm position/ bar height

[img] [/img]
?

Matt - probably but the parallel thing was in a skills course I did with Dirtschool so it has to be right 😛

its not attack. its passive and centered

its not attack. its passive and centered

[img] [/img]

????????

Pictures please

@ Jedi...whatever it's called..my passive centered position for when I'm in a position to attack the trail...

I've a medium Enduro 29, 60mm stem 6 deg. rise, 750mm bars 10deg back 10mm rise

I'm 178cm so 5' 10, my knuckles don't drag on the ground when I walk nor am I built like a Tyrannisaur rex.

you should be evenly distributed through the middle of your bike.

We can't really guess how you look and fit your bike!

So,

Find a wall, lean your bike against it, set up a camera parallel to the wall, get into your fav position (attack, defense, ying yang, ting tong, the choice is yours 😉 take picture and then see what it shows.

jedi
you should be evenly distributed through the middle of your bike.

Something Ratty seemed to be on Sunday arvo:

[img] [/img]

Any harder and he might actually have become part of his V10 😉

You need to be able to move your body in all directions and react to the terrain. So if your arms are too stretched so you are unable to react to the front wheel dropping into dips then something is not correct. You either need to shift your body forwards so the arms are less stretched or reduce the reach either with a smaller stem or bars with more backsweep. I guess photos of you on the bike might help.

Also arms being stretched doesn't necessarily mean you have too much weight over the front. You can have a long and high front end which means your arms are extended but your weighted isn't over front.

I'll try and get a pic or two sorted tomorrow.

We also need to know if you have long hair and/or a pony tail cos that was clearly what unbalanced Ratboy

I went to wider bars, 780mm from 720 about 6 years ago. Completely whacked my handling, persevered and found that I was running my bars to low for that width. The wider you go, the taller you have to run the bars to keep your back in a similar position.

Beyond a certain point lower bars don't help you weight up the front wheel more, it's just a lazy way of forcing yourself to all the bloody time.

I'll going to go to wider bars as I had wider (780mm) on my previous bike but I need to get the rise right. Previous bike was a Bfe running 160mm travel with quite a few spacers under a 50mm stem and a 25mm rise.

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Someone has emptied their moon cup all over your bike.

Elbows out, not back. They should be fairly close to 90 degrees when looked at from the front which probably brings your chest closer to the bars than you usually ride. That means you can move the bike left and right with minimal movement and you are ready fr the bike to move both up and down. You should still be able to 'float' your hands and maintain the position.

This is why every child should be given a bmx! Shirley you quickly learn this after you hurtle yourself down a few hills as a 7 year old? 😆

Fwiw, stand up, arse back a bit, heels dipped, arms and legs slightly bent ready to absord the bumps!

You must have a short torso to be so stretched. I would go with a 30 or 40mm stem.

Blue frame with red anodized bits? I would be riding that with my eyes shut.

How tall is the front of that BFE?....the height at the front of my hardtail bothers me and i 'only' have a 150mm fork in it!....so much so that i dont have a spacer under the stem and use a fairly flat 10mm rise bar to get me a bit lower.

Looking at the BFE i guess its a completely personal thing, as others have said; if you can move around freely then you're probably not far off.
If you feel that your weight is pitched forward onto your wrists then raise the bars, shorten the stem etc to move you back on the bike....if you feel like a sack of spuds on the saddle then move forward by dropping the bars, longer stem etc.
Your weight should be evenly spread through the pedals, saddle and bars.

What Jedi says reflects what I do - yet was told was 'wrong' on a L2 coaching course last week.
I suggested that centred, moving lower and back what I did / saw many do - but the suggestion was it was weight back. Going lower = more bend at joints = able to move around more and absorb Bumps more.
But moving lower or back is not the "attack" position - moving around means you are responding to something on the trail ahead or below.

Matt - I've just been through IMBA training here in the US and it's basically 'heavy pedals, light hands' for the 'ready' position (we call it neutral and ready). If your weight is mostly on the 9flat, horizontal) pedals then you are centered on the bike. Weight would go back or forward if the terrain (or braking) required it.

I'm fairly sure the generally erroneous "get your weight back" std advice comes from very basic level coaching to "nervy" beginners. Afterall, i'd say most people who are new and uncomfortable on a bike are more worried about not going OTB and much less worried about proper cornering or "carrying speed". For these people, "getting back" on the bike would seem like a sensible, easy, and "correct" thing to do.

Of course, the more, er enlightened Mountain biker quickly realises that this approach is not the universal panacea it might seem to be!

Slate away...

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tymbian - Member
Slate away...

1. X-type 🙄

2. First photo shows nothing, sitting doesn't come into it.

3. Second photo..... if you actually ride like that you'll have problems any time your front wheel drops into anything as your arms are already full extended. tbh I find that the position you use when static doesn't actually equate to what you do when riding.

S-type...

Difficult to model when not out on a trail..

Difficult to model when not out on a trail..

I think you may have hit on an answer. Get a riding buddy to video/photo you on a proper trail to see where you really are on the bike. Maybe a skills course with similar analysis.

I guess the bigger question is whether this is affecting your enjoyment of riding(?)

If not, and you don't keep ending up in A&E, then maybe chill out a bit and enjoy just being out.

Drop your heels more, bend more at the knees and hips, which will lower your shoulders, allowing your arms to be more bent at the elbow. Elbows up and out. All your weight on your feet not on your hands.
I reckon you are just stood up too much.

When riding I feel I'm pitched forward and get sore hands due to too much weight on my bars. Somethings not right or I wouldn't of started the thread.

Drop your heels. Hips back more. If the static picture is actually your moving position you are much too upright and your arms are too straight. You need to get more weight on the pedals while at the same time relaxing your elbows.
[img] [/img]

^^^ Elbows are too far back. Get them forward and get a bit lower as well.

Elbows out, not back. They should be fairly close to 90 degrees when looked at from the front which probably brings your chest closer to the bars than you usually ride. That means you can move the bike left and right with minimal movement and you are ready fr the bike to move both up and down. You should still be able to 'float' your hands and maintain the position.

That's the position im in when im taking the piss out of doddy/that mbuk style of mtber. 😆

[img] http://sebrogers.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341cc2d753ef0148c6cd6b2c970c-350wi [/img]

doesnt look the best position to me.

[img] [/img]

looks more like it, more like jedi's calm and centred too.

I don't think one photo of a DHer is the best guidance for body position. Stick "Jared Graves" into google image search - he's raced everything (DH, 4X, BMX, Enduro) and is bloody good at riding a bike. His body position changes constantly but the fundamental thing is that his shoulders are low enough to give him enough arm range and his hips hinge to get his shoulders into the right place and to let his body move forwards and back as required.

The better you are at riding, the less exaggerated your default position tends to be but the better your timing and power is so what look subtle movements have far more effect on the bike than with an average rider like me who has to move more. You might want to try some hip stretches so you can get down and back and low - I haven't done any stretching in a while and have noticed that getting tight is a v bad thing which stops me riding as well as I can.

^ hamming it up lets you look better on the bike in pictures while rolling along at 10mph for a picture )
The best riders I know look very relaxed, smooth and as if they're putting in little effort. They don't look like they're 'aggressive' or 'attacking' anything. Words like that sound like advice that will make you tense or try too hard. Jedi's description is much better. When things flow well and you're going quick it all feels very smooth.

That's the position im in when im taking the piss out of doddy/that mbuk style of mtber.

Funnily enough, it works. What I described comes straight from this fella:
[url= http://www.usacycling.org/where-are-they-now-chasing-down-shaums-march.htm ]Shaums March[/url]

He's coached quite a few successful World Cup riders in his time.

It's worth noting that a "Photo" can be deceiving!

How "stuck out your elbows are" depends rather on the angle from which you take the photo. The classic "close to the ground" pic in MBUK is always going to make your elbows look more sticky-outy!

Also, a photo is a single instant in time. It tells you nothing about where the riders body mass sits on AVERAGE, only where it was at the moment the photo was taken. Hence, you will see someone with their chin on the stem at the apex of a corner, but 0.5s later, stood up tall, straight armed, when pumping out away from the same berm!

[b]tymbian[/b] from the second photo you posted it looks like you are standing a bit too much upright. Some of that might down you being stationary?

As others have said, try dipping your heels a little that should bring your hips backwards a bit. Bending the knees a little bit and possibly also have your back a bit lower too but that might automatically happen by bending the knees.

As said before you need to be able to react in all directions. It looks like your arms and legs are a little bit too extended so while you will be able absorb bumps you don't look like you will be able to extend into dips very well. Which it what you ere complaining about in the first place?

Is it just your hands that are hurting or your arms and shoulders too? If just your hands then I'd look at your grips or bar placement. Usually for me anyway if I've got too much weight over the front my whole upper body starts to hurt as its not just the hands that are taking the strain.

Also, try raising the front of your brake levers / shifters a bit to rotate your hands backwards, which will both help you stay "behind the bike" and naturally bring your torso downwards a bit.

Also, try raising the front of your brake levers / shifters a bit to rotate your hands backwards, which will both help you stay "behind the bike" and naturally bring your torso downwards a bit.

Not unless he is planning to ride full time downhill on his back wheel.

Can't see the bars, but rotating them back a little in the stem (you'll need to reposition brake levers & shifters) make a subtle but significant adjustment to weighting and position.

From the sound of things, you might do a lot worse than switching to a shorter stem - 60mm isn't, well, enduro really.

Someone has emptied their moon cup all over your bike.

i didn't NEED to Google what a moon cup is at work 😯

i just could help myself!

http://www.pinkbike.com/u/mtbstrengthcoach/blog/Shoe-Pedal-and-Foot-Placement-Tips-for-Flat-Pedals.html

@ jairaj. .standing a bit tall as leaning on my elbow, when needed I can go lower and I move about on the bike adjusting to the trail. I do feel I'm pitched forward to reach the bars hence the hand pain ( I think )

Maybe I should try a shorter stem. Say 40 mm and go from their 're bar height.

I really think people are over thinking this. Seriously.

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/dh-riding-style-moto-vs-mtb.html

Theres a few different ways to ride a mountain bike "correctly", ride whichever way suits you and set your bike up accordingly. I ride more of a moto style, with flats and so tend to run my rear shock firmer, my font fork a bit softer and my bars a little taller than some.

Is it just me or does that bike look waay to small for that bloke?

Funnily enough, it works. What I described comes straight from this fella:
Shaums March

He's coached quite a few successful World Cup riders in his time.

In the Alps this year, it was "Moto" style all the way. Leg out, let rip, with your knackers touching the stem!! 😉

It could be that you may need to improve your flexibility and core strength. Your back is very straight, far from the bars and that's why your arms are fully stretched. If you bend your back forwards you'll be closer to the bars and your arms slightly bent, more in an attack position. You need your core muscles to support this posture and avoid fatiguing your arms too much.

Maybe someone else can correct me

Hand pain will be down to poor core strength, maybe a bit tense too.

I thought that when I saw the photo but it doesn't ride like it.

@ jairaj. .standing a bit tall as leaning on my elbow, when needed I can go lower and I move about on the bike adjusting to the trail. I do feel I'm pitched forward to reach the bars hence the hand pain ( I think )

Maybe I should try a shorter stem. Say 40 mm and go from their 're bar height.

My personal hunch is that the bike length is about right for you, judging by those photos. The bars really do look way to low, try an inch or inch and a half more rise.

Whats your inseam length vs your height? I have very long legs in comparison to my total height so I find medium frames tend to be about the right in terms of length but not in terms of seat tube length.

@ Tom_w1987
Build wise I'd say normal length arms n legs. If buying trousers I'd buy a R regular or a 32inch leg.

At a glance I think your legs are way too straight and your back is way too upright. If I sit up like that the handlebar is literally at my fingertips.

You've already said you are more upright in the photos than you are when riding, but to my eyes that is nowhere near an 'attack' position.

I would be looking at that before changing stems etc.

Tom_W1987 - Member
> http://www.leelikesbikes.com/dh-riding-style-moto-vs-mtb.html

Theres a few different ways to ride a mountain bike "correctly", ride whichever way suits you and set your bike up accordingly. I ride more of a moto style, with flats and so tend to run my rear shock firmer, my font fork a bit softer and my bars a little taller than some.

For me it's this. ^

Many years of racing motocross has my natural position being the motocross attack position. (Arms at approx 45 degrees above horizontal and elbows slightly bent to allow the bike to move with the terrain)
I also get some lower back pain so I really don't like being. stretched out on a bike.

It appears curent mtb geometry for 'enduro' style bikes is forcing you to be more stretched out again.

I'd suggest locking your forks out. This will effectively raise your bars, since you won't lose 'x' mm due to the suspension sag. Obviously it's not a long term solution, but it'll give you a good idea as to whether you'd want higher bars or not.

Ingesting thread. It's very hard to know what your body is doing on the heart of the moment.

Any way I'm adding to thread to book Mark it

In general I think my own position falls down on two fronts.

Firstly amazingly unsupportive forks that seem to collapse when I stand up. But still not reach any where near full travel on bumps.

The May bars are also a disaster. I'm sure they put your arms in the wrong positron stood up.

Luckily I live in the flat south

For me it's this. ^

Many years of racing motocross has my natural position being the motocross attack position. (Arms at approx 45 degrees above horizontal and elbows slightly bent to allow the bike to move with the terrain)
I also get some lower back pain so I really don't like being. stretched out on a bike.

It appears curent mtb geometry for 'enduro' style bikes is forcing you to be more stretched out again.

Looking forward to Brants 650b codeine because of this, his bikes are shorter and more suited to this style. You could always run a 10-30mm stem though and bring the reach down to an acceptable length. You'll know that moto riders uses exceptionally short stems and I reckon long top tubes mated to very very short stems will suit moto style riders more than people with an mtb style.

It might seem a bit "Slow and Steady" but the video in this link is quite useful and the key word is "Stability":

[url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/how-to-ride-better-zep-mountain-bike-camps-2010.html ]http://www.pinkbike.com/news/how-to-ride-better-zep-mountain-bike-camps-2010.html[/url]

To the extent I've thought about it, I always imagined this position:

[img] [/img]

But adapted to the relevant contact points.

Just avoid the poo stance.