Talk to me about Archery.

On the draw technique – what cougar is calling the V-draw seems to be the trad way of drawing a warbow. The bows were that powerful that i doubt many people could hold the bow at full draw for any meaningful length of time.

I once had a bloke tell me that no-one could pull a 100lb bow unless they were using their feet on the shaft of the bow – all whilst a 5’2″ 9.5 stone dwarf was happily drawing a 70lb bow in front of him!

I seem to remember Brian Blessed was a useful archer years ago and was one of the few people in the UK who got close to drawing a medieval warbow. (I may be wrong – it was a long time ago…)

Sure it wasn’t Robert Hardy? He was a recognised expert in the field of medieval archery and could draw a full strength bow i believe.

It is strange why no other Nation produced such men, but it required a huge investment in time to produce an army based around the archer.

The Mongols?

Supposedly the mongol bows had a higher draw weight and better range/penetration than an English longbow, despite being much shorter (and hence usable from horseback) and coming significantly earlier.

Their bows were heavily laminated with horn on the inside and tendons on the outside.

As with the medieval archers, they trained pretty much from birth.

There’s a lot of information in this book about the mounted armies of Attila the Hun, including (if I remember correctly) a Hungarian guy who’s spent 20+ years practicing to shoot 6 shots into the same target at a full gallop. It also has plenty of interesting accounts of how they were used to great effect in battle.

I would dispute that the Mongol bows were of a far heavier draw weight – i’ve read Conn Iggulden make that claim but TBH i haven’t seen it backed up anywhere else as yet.
The Mongol bow – being a laminated recurve was capable of high power and would penetrate the armour of the enemy. However, that armour was often either maille or laminate sections. Put a Mongol or English warbow against steel plate and the results are very different.

The mechanics of drawing a heavyweight bow from a seated position would make a 150lb+ bow very difficult to draw – reduce the actual draw weight to 70lb and multiply it by the mechanical properties of the bow and you have a winner.

In fact, having just googled the subject, i came across a proponent of the Mongol recurve claiming that the average English warbow draw weight was around 60-70lbs. Complete rubbish so i didn’t read any further!

It might be that a Mongol bow achieves a higher arrow velocity than a longbow, as a result of a composite construction and recurve, which is more efficient for a given draw weight. I agree that it seems unlikely that they would be a heavier draw overall.

This has all been incredibly helpful and simplified what I was initially concerned would become complex. 😕

Cougar – from the various C15th sources i’ve seen it would appear that bows were drawn to the nose for a snap shot and to the ear (full draw) for the distance/power shot.
…etc

Didn’t know that. Interesting reading, thanks. Outside of Agincourt, my knowledge of archery history is pretty thin TBH.

This has all been incredibly helpful and simplified what I was initially concerned would become complex.

I think your query was addressed by Cougar’s first post 🙂

It might be that a Mongol bow achieves a higher arrow velocity than a longbow, as a result of a composite construction and recurve, which is more efficient for a given draw weight. I agree that it seems unlikely that they would be a heavier draw overall.

Interesting, I hadn’t appreciated that the bow could give a mechanical advantage that way.

in which case check this out
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=283955

interesting the discussion that the longbow as found in the british isles seems to have proliferated more to do with environmental factors

Just had a look at that Physics thread. hmmm.

I don’t know enough about the laminated Mongol bow to say whether the weapon was unstrung when not in use as a warbow is (longbow is a Victorian term).
If that weapon was not unstrung then yes, the predominantly wet weather would have been a factor as at the Battle of Crecy when the French advanced their crossbowmen during a rain squall, the crossbows got wet and the strings stretched causing a massive loss of range/power. The English archers kept their bows unstrung and their strings dry (which is where you get the term ‘keep it under your hat) until they needed them and shot the Genoese crossbowmen down by running forward, loosing a short series of shots then legging it back before the Genoese could reload. The French command thought the Genoese had been paid off by the English and charged over the top of their own crossbowmen, killing those that had survived the failed attack.

The two types of bow evolved (in my view) not because of the weather, but because of the type of warfare being utilised. In England the concept of heavy cavalry had been somewhat nullified by the use of massed archery added to the fact that England is a place not given to huge grassy plains beloved of cavalry. Add to that the increase in armour technology and you have a style of warfare more suited to massed foot troops with large missile units and a relatively small core of heavily armoured professional fighters wearing high cost but very effective armour that rendered the wearer near invincible to projectile and thrusting weapons – whish is why weapons like the bill/halberd/warhammer/poll-axe were developed.

In Asia, less metal available meant less plate harness and more maille, which is incredibly vunlerable to arrows and slim thrusting weapons as well as being bloody heavy for its protection value. On the steppes there aren’t that many trees so laminated construction bows made of bone etc developed. The difference is, the English archer often made his own weapon, i don’t know if the Mongol warriors all made theirs.
Because of the vastness of the terrain, warfare developed into primarily cavalry use so a bow that could be drawn and shot from horseback was essential.
The Mongols defeated European heavy cavaly in Eastern Europe, but that was the old style of European warfare, a war of massed lances against massed archery will only end one way.
It never happened, but it would have been interesting to see how a Mongol Tuman or two would fare against an English army that was pre-disposed (because of limited numbers) to fight a defensive battle that forced the enemy to advance on a defended position. It is interesting to note that during the Wars of the Roses – the only conflict were both sides had access to massed archery – that the bow as a decisive battle winner became nullified and the battles were decided when the troops came to close quarters and hand strokes.

Ooops, sorry got a bit carried away there… 😳

Didn’t know that. Interesting reading, thanks. Outside of Agincourt, my knowledge of archery history is pretty thin TBH.

From my experience, that final six inches from nose to ear is the most difficult part of the draw. Before that you can put your hips/ back and shoulders into the draw (as you stated about the low/horizontal style of draw). When it gets to the nose it’s just your arm and shoulder muscles which makes it a lot harder plus the bow is under it’s maximum tension at that point.

Also, noted in that physics thread someone claimed a warbow wasn’t under tension when at rest, bolloxs to that, a warbow has to be tensioned to be strung – watching me dance around the field with my legs wrapped around the bow as i attempt to string it is apparently hilarious!

that final six inches from nose to ear is the most difficult part of the draw.

The rule of thumb I was always taught is two pounds per inch of draw. So that last six inches is another twelve pounds of draw weight to hold.

That’s why a bow weight is always expressed as (weight) at (inches). My recurve is 36@28″, so if I were to have a draw length of 30″ then I’d be pulling 40lbs rather than the indicated 36.

(Obviously, this doesn’t apply to compounds)

Does anyone know what sort of bow the average English forester (or hunter) would have used if what we now call the ‘longbow’ was limited to military use?

@saxonrider
a shorter one.

I’ve just moved over to wooded arrows after another club memeber gave me a stack of arrows. Anything was better than my Armex Ali’s…but they served well 🙂

Gave me an excuse to make a new arrow rack from a old standard lamp.

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Arrow rack[/url] by SGMTB[/url], on Flickr

PS White will be rounded off or find a nice piece of oak.

@40 yards.

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Nailed![/url] by SGMTB[/url], on Flickr

@saxonrider…. There is a short section in bikerstaffes book about the history of longbows. Dosnt go into much detail but it seems that there have been flat bows and s few D shaped bows. Flat bows are by their nature shorter and therefore easier to use in woodland, look for the meare heath bow. There was one found that dated to around 6000 years old that is a classic D shaped(rotten bottom bow) .Hunting bows would have been around 60lb. I reckon that the length wouldnt have been much different to modern self (non laminated wood) bows.
Plus a decent 60lb bow capable of bringing down a deer wouldnt be much of a leap to use it in battle…..
Cheers

An English warbow of the later medieval period was a pretty tough proposition – the bows found on the Mary Rose have been rated to around 160lb draw-weight although that is reckoned to be on the somewhat extreme side.
Most warbows were reckoned to be over 100lbs, i’ve drawn an 80lb bow and it hurt. I doubt there is more than a handful of archers in England that could draw a full strength bow.

I remember going to a display by the Marcher Lords re-enactment group at one of the border castles years ago, and there was a stocky little bloke there wearing a steel skull-cap and using a D-section warbow taller than me, and I’m six foot. It was apparently about 150lb draw, and he could draw it to his ear! I tried a smaller bow of about 80lb, and could only get it back about half draw. 😳
I used to do archery at school with a little Slazenger flat bow, and really enjoyed it, maybe after forty-odd years I ought to see about getting back into it again.
Brilliant thread, though, thanks to everyone who’s contributed, it’s threads like this that keep me coming back here.

We like to think that we are the best examples of modern humans that have ever lived in these isles, the reality is somewhat different!
The medieval archer was a specialist soldier hired for his strength and skills. An archer bringing his own weapon could command a higher wage than the ordinary billman (usually semi-armoured heavy foot soldier armed with a 7ft pole weapon).
Those men practised regularly and developed the stature required to operate those weapons. Drawing a bow isn’t ‘just’ about brute strength although it certainly helps, but also about the technique of using your whole body as the ‘cocking lever’. I never spent enough time practising the bow as i preferred the using the bill and sword ‘cos i liked hitting people! 😳

You defo need at 100lb bow to kill a bit of hessian 😉

I wonder what happened the original OP ?

this thread has certainly given me the information i need if i do so wish to take this pastime up.

thankyou