Taking the kids out of school to going skiing. Opinions?

1. Graham’s kid is four, so they haven’t changed for her.
2. Compulsory attendance was expected prior to the introduction of fines.
3. My pension and working conditions have been changed more than once.

My kids are older so its relevant for me and the rules where changed to take the autonomy away from the school head who was able to take a more grown up and broader view.
My working conditions have also been changed several times.

I think I can condense DazH’s bullet points a bit, good as they are:

1. She’s 4. It really doesn’t matter.

But I think the thread wasn’t actually supposed to be an opportunity to put Graham in the stocks (correct me if I’m wrong, got a pile of mouldy veg here I need rid of), more the general principal of the current legislation, which is utter bobbins. I can’t see how it helps anyone. The ones who are going to kept out from school by their parents will be anyway, and fining them won’t help.

the thread wasn’t actually supposed to be an opportunity to put Graham in the stocks

He knew what he was doing… 🙂

I think I can condense DazH’s bullet points a bit, good as they are:

1. She’s 4. It really doesn’t matter.

But I think the thread wasn’t actually supposed to be an opportunity to put Graham in the stocks (correct me if I’m wrong, got a pile of mouldy veg here I need rid of), more the general principal of the current legislation, which is utter bobbins. I can’t see how it helps anyone. The ones who are going to kept out from school by their parents will be anyway, and fining them won’t help.

Whole thread nicely condensed!

Just out of curiosity – how often do schools fine parents, and what are the sanctions for not paying ?

It seems like the last stop on a long train ride. First, the school has to be able to prove that the kids weren’t all off with a stomach bug. Then they have to invoice the parents, and establish for certain that they have no intention to pay. I guess then they take the parents to court for non-payment ? Does the local authority do that ? Can they ban kids from school if the parents don’t pay ? I thought there is a statutory obligation to provide education.

Oh yeah and home-school the kids for the bits they missed – I see the point about the teachers having to catch them up, but surely that would happen if the kid was off sick anyway – so why not ask for the material and do it yourself at the airport ?

If it was me, I would keep very quiet about what was happening, make sure there is no internet trail and the kids don’t post tons of pics on FB about their holiday. In the whole benefits v consequences equation I would think the benefits win.

The only justification for taking your kids on holiday in term time is cost.

And availability.

Cultural development etc are also available during school holiday times.

Of course. That wasn’t offered as a reason to go away during term time. It is just part of the equation when balancing out the cost/benefit to the child.

So admit you do it to get a cheap holiday you otherwise couldn’t afford

I thought I’d already been pretty clear about that.
We did it because otherwise we couldn’t have gone on that holiday. Cost was a major factor in that. As was availability.

(“cheap” is a pretty relative term as it still cost over three and half grand 😯 )

I think we’ve covered the dishonesty bit already 😉

it still cost over three and half grand

Ooooh, get you and all your money sticking out of your arse. 😛

Every other argument is spurious.

So admit you do it to get a cheap holiday you otherwise couldn’t afford, and then people can agree or disagree with your point of view depending on their own.

Yes but the cost is the point. If some people couldn’t afford a holiday in school holidays they may not go at all.

The nub of the argument is can that holiday be of equal value to a family (I don’t even think it has to be particularly educational if it has other benefits) as that time spent in school. I would argue the time in school is sometimes over valued versus other life experiences, particularly in the early years. My own experience is that nothing fires a childs mind like being there, seeing & doing things for themselves.

Some friends of mine are off to Australia with the kids during term time to see relatives for 4 weeks. Knowing them, they will make efforts to ensure they keep up with dat book lurnin’ whilst they are away, but I suspect the other aspects of the trip will be of greater long term value, and seriously doubt it will have any long term detrimental effect.

FWIW I wouldn’t take my kids out for that long. But the point is they shouldn’t give a rats ass what I think as it’s their responsibility as parents to do what they think is best.

Tell you what, lets stop calling it a holiday and say gap week 🙂

Schools don’t fine parents, iirc, they report it and the education authority decide whether to fine?

Pretty pointless unless the fine is big enough to actually make holidays in term time uneconomic. Usual standard of poorly thought through legislation.

Just out of curiosity – how often do schools fine parents, and what are the sanctions for not paying ?

Not great I’d say.

Don’t know of any stats on the actual fines being applied, but it generally seems to make local news (or maybe thats just the ones who don’t jsut see it as a fair cop).

Pretty pointless unless the fine is big enough to actually make holidays in term time uneconomic. Usual standard of poorly thought through legislation.

I think that also points to the intention of the original legislation.
i.e. if the parents are feckless and don’t care if their kids are habitually truant then perhaps some fines will make them care.

Of course if the parents are that feckless then I doubt they’d have any qualms about lying to the relevant authority anyway – so it still doesn’t really work.

Wow – somebody managed to find something useful on the gov.uk website. Do you have the word “Digital” in your job title ?

P.S and thanks !

ROFL as it happens I do.. I have a feeling the design principle for that site was ‘awwwww screw it, Google’ll find it for them sooner or later. Let’s get tacos’.

I die a little bit inside everytime I end up there.

He knew what he was doing…

Good point, well made 🙂

1. Graham’s kid is four, so they haven’t changed for her.

How old are your other kids Graham?

Yes but the cost is the point. If some people couldn’t afford a holiday in school holidays they may not go at all.

Well, there’s no legislation to say holidays are a human right.

I would argue the time in school is sometimes over valued versus other life experiences, particularly in the early years

I think there’s something to that, but the problem for schools is they are not measured on the quality of life experience their pupils have attained on leaving the school – they as an organisation and the teachers as individuals are professionally measured on the results the pupils get.

Of course if the parents are that feckless then I doubt they’d have any qualms about lying to the relevant authority anyway – so it still doesn’t really work.

It’s got to be said, from reading this thread it certainly doesn’t seem to be an overwhelmingly successful policy… 🙂 But you know, what else do they do?

FWIW Graham, I can totally understand the bemusement about fining over your four year old missing a week, but in the broader context of your original post, I stand by my earlier replies (albeit in a slightly less belligerent way 🙂 ).

How old are your other kids Graham?

We’ve got two kids. Daughter at school (reception year) is four and her little sister is one and a half. So only the eldest was an issue.

I don’t get this need for taking kids to far-flung expensive places for holidays. I didn’t go abroad for a holiday ever with my parents and not myself until I was 36. I’m no different to anyone else because of it.

Making the excuse that it’s good for their cultural development (or whatever) and experience of the world is just a cover for the fact that the parent can’t ever imagine not having their fancy holiday. Makes no difference to a primary school age child where you go.

Well, there’s no legislation to say holidays are a human right.

Indeed, but I think most people would agree that quality time with family and a broad range of positive experiences are generally a good thing for child development.

So disrupting that with legislation that aims to protect and improve child development is a bit odd.

But as you say, the problem for schools facing targets and league tables is that life experience is hard to measure.

I stand by my earlier replies (albeit in a slightly less belligerent way ).

That’s fine. As DD said I knew what I was doing when I started the thread 😀 I always find other people’s viewpoints interesting, even if I don’t share them.

And I can see us doing the same thing next year and probably several more years after that, so you can be more belligerent then 😀

dazh –
2. Parents being trusted to make their own decisions on whether their childs education and development will be negatively impacted is also a pretty good justification.

With respect, how are parents qualified to make that decision? It’s like – if your child had dental problems, would you presume to instruct their dentist on how you’d like it treated, even if that’s contrary to what the dentist advises?

And I can see us doing the same thing next year and probably several more years after that, so you can be more belligerent then 😀

Heh! Deal. 😀

I think there’s something to that, but the problem for schools is they are not measured on the quality of life experience their pupils have attained on leaving the school – they as an organisation and the teachers as individuals are professionally measured on the results the pupils get.

I understand the schools problem. But it’s as imposed on them as it is on the parents. I think given a straight choice, most schools would have preferred to leave it to a heads discretion, but as you say they are measured on this so they can’t turn a blind eye. No one benefits from legislating that I can see.

With respect, how are parents qualified to make that decision? It’s like – if your child had dental problems, would you presume to instruct their dentist on how you’d like it treated, even if that’s contrary to what the dentist advises?

Who says you have to be qualified? You don’t to home school for example, just be able to demonstrate progress. In your dental example, the dentist can advise but the parent decides (even if if its a bad decision. Thats part of the deal for better or worse – see MMR vaccination).

The point about it being a skiing holiday isn’t inverse snobbery. The fact is that if you want to talk about experiencing different cultures etc there are far cheaper ways of going abroad and gaining a more rounded experience of life abroad than going skiing. Ski resorts have very little to do with the culture of the country in which they are based. The truth of the matter is the OP wants to go skiing himself & is just trying to save money to do it. Everything else is just an attempt to justify why he should be able to do this. It has nothing to do with his kids.

[ not read thread] Speaking to teacher friends the problem is not that one parent does it but half the class do it at different times and this creates the problem

I don’t get this need for taking kids to far-flung expensive places for holidays. I didn’t go abroad for a holiday ever with my parents

I didn’t go abroad much as a kid either. The odd 30-hour coach trip to Spain, but mostly we went to UK caravan and camp sites. It was great and we do the same with our kids in the summer.

Having said that, we took my mum with us on this holiday (hence the cost) and after a few glasses of bordeaux one night she rather sadly confided how she wished she’d been able to give my sister and I holidays like this when we were young and what a great experience it was for the girls.

The truth of the matter is the OP wants to go skiing himself & is just trying to save money to do it. Everything else is just an attempt to justify why he should be able to do this. It has nothing to do with his kids.

Nope. I’m off for two weeks in Whistler in ten days time with two mates. My quality skiing time was already booked. This holiday was about the kids and having fun as a family.

(Third time our four year old has been skiing and she had been talking about going again ever since last season).

after a few glasses of bordeaux one night she rather sadly confided how she wished she’d been able to give my sister and I holidays like this when we were young and what a great experience it was for the girls.

*wipes a tear from my eye*

That’s all the justification you need. Thread should be closed on that bombshell.

Indeed, but I think most people would agree that quality time with family and a broad range of positive experiences are generally a good thing for child development.

Don’t the rather long school holidays afford the opportunity to do these things? Granted things are a bit more expensive but then there are plenty of things that I’d like to do with my holidays but can’t because I can’t afford to.

Edit

Nope. I’m off for two weeks in Whistler in ten days time with two mates. My quality skiing time was already booked.

And you’re worried about the cost of a familty trip. Nice to see you’ve got your priorities straight.

we took my mum with us on this holiday (hence the cost)

Could you have gone during the school holidays if you weren’t paying for a babysitter an extra adult to come with you?

Nope. I’m off for two weeks in Whistler in ten days time with two mates. My quality skiing time was already booked. This holiday was about the kids and having fun as a family.

It must be awful living in such poverty. How much family time with the kids are you missing in those two weeks?

Thread should be closed on that bombshell.

Is this Top gear now? 😉

And you’re worried about the cost of a familty trip. Nice to see you’ve got your priorities straight.

I usually just do a cheapo trip to Slovakia, but I’m turning forty in April so Whistler is a birthday treat. Quite happy with my priorities thanks 😀

It must be awful living in such poverty.

Don’t think I ever claimed to be poor. We both work part time in above-average pay jobs and we budget well.

we were charged £60 per responsible parent or guardian. so £120?

**This is not an argument for or against taking kids out of school, and I haven’t read the whole thread**

I’ve just got back from a ski trip with the kids, my kids missed the last day of term and the first day back after the half term break. We don’t want to pay the inflated flight costs over the school holiday so chose to drive to the Pyrenees. This takes longer but is very much the cheaper option, as we already have our car there so no hire car needed. We go to the Pyrenees because my sister lives out there with their kids so it’s nice for all the kids to meet up for holidays.

I don’t mind taking the kids out of school for a few days but don’t want them to miss too much of it, summer holidays will again be down to my sisters/the spanish/french coast, but again in the school holidays. We work hard to make the trips as cheap as possible by driving down and not booking packages. Trips abroad in the school holidays don’t have to be super expensive if you do the donkey work yourself.

In Leeds they usually give you 5 days grace before they start fining parents, I think this system is pretty good as it stings the constant offenders but doesn’t cost me any more!! 😉

There are some proper miserable judgemental sods on this thread. Yes, skiing is not a human right, it’s not culturally enlightening, and it’s not cheap. It is however bloody good fun and myself and my kids love it, and I’d like to make it cheaper so I can take them every year instead of every other year. That’s all the justification I need to be honest.

With respect, how are parents qualified to make that decision?

Because they have brains and the ability to use them?

Unfortunately your decision and a similar decisions by lots of other parents harms the education of most kids in that class. Catching up takes time and someone misses out most weeks.
So you [ and the OP] can either do what is your interest [ and quite probably/possibly your kids] or what is in the collective interest of everyone kids.

Being a parent does not make you able to asses your kids educational needs any more than having a car makes me qualified to decide when to change the cam belt

We spoke to her teacher beforehand to make sure she wouldn’t miss anything.
If he had told us that he thought it was a bad idea or that it might harm the education of her or others then we would have considered that and probably wouldn’t have done it.

Being a parent does not make you able to asses your kids educational needs any more than having a car makes me qualified to decide when to change the cam belt

Indeed, but you can ask the teacher/mechanic that is qualified and listen to what they say.

Unfortunately your decision and a similar decisions by lots of other parents harms the education of most kids in that class

how does removing a child from class affect the other children’s education? Utter bobbins that is. If Children miss class for whatever reason, they play catchup at home or after school, it’s been like that for…. well ever! If you missed it, your teacher is supposed to document what is taught everyday as standard, so all that is needed is those notes yourself – not hard really.

Its been stated many times already, but this thread has turned into a Class War about certain peoples choices on holiday type, money and the incessant need for unworkable and unneeded “catch all rule” designed around the feckless of society. It seems odd, but those arguing around this on the forum, i’ll take a shot at saying are all responsible adults pushing their kids to succeed in what unique way they choose, so hardly the target audience for what the rules are designed around.

As a kid i went on a grand total of 2 holidays with family, 1 to Littlehampton in a Caravan (i was about 3 or 4 then) and 1 to Comb Martin in a Caravan. My parents couldn’t afford it, i didn’t mind this as i was a kid, but i know that I’ve missed out, it wasn;t my parents fault, its just the way it was.

Now as a parent of a 3 and almost 5 year old and with a lot more funds than my parents had, i choose to take my family abroad. I like travelling, i do it with work, and i see the benefit it can have on your life, i want this for my kids! The only way, as it “legally” stands my kids will go away skiing or such like, is with the school and i will have to pay the school and the teachers for the privilege – well above what i would if we went as a family.

The Ski magazine is correct, and you’ll find that the editor is a local surrey MTB’er too, so oddly enough fits in with everyone here on the “responsible adult theme”, i’m with him on this one and all those other responsible adults that are encouraging their childrens education.

just a quick edit, i’m also fairly certain, that those doing this kinds of holidays will understand how well their child’s academic education is going, if they were failing bad i’m sure the decision would be not to go..

Plenty of obnoxious responses on this thread!

There is another good reason for skiing outside school holidays – less crowded slopes are much safer and pleasant (we really want our kids to be able to ski and enjoy it as safely as possible).

When the kids start school, we won’t take them out during term time purely to save some money (even though that does matter) so we’ll take the pain for summer holidays as there are lots of options and alternatives if required… skiing is different though. I am hoping that we can find some smaller quieter resorts that offer enough variety for all of us to be happy though, even during school holidays.

We’ve been going through the school application/visits things for our eldest and a major objective of the primary schools seems to be to produce well rounded confident kids – how on earth is a family ski holiday not consistent with that?!

how does removing a child from class affect the other children’s education?

Well the cumulative effect of many children (not just yours) taking time off during term time would certainly impact the effectivness of the teaching not to mention the impact of having to re teach the topics again.

We’ve been going through the school application/visits things for our eldest and a major objective of the primary schools seems to be to produce well rounded confident kids – how on earth is a family ski holiday not consistent with that?!

No one has said that family ski holidays aren’t a good thing, but it’s hardly a requirement for bringing up well rounded children is it.

Well the cumulative effect of many children (not just yours) taking time off during term time would certainly impact the effectivness of the teaching not to mention the impact of having to re teach the topics again.

i get this, but i already stated that catchup can be done quite quickly by parents simply by understanding what the weeks topics were which should be readily available. Therefore, there should never be a requirement for a topic to be taught twice in a class.