Suspension dive under braking

Recon pop lock isn’t like this. Revelation/Reba is?

Recon threshold is preset

Recon pop lock isn’t like this. Revelation/Reba is?

AFAIK each fork comes in several different versions.

Personally I like a really supple active fork so put up with excessive dive occasionally

That’s why I like my poploc/floodgate setup.

I’ve got it pretty plush and open in normal riding, but for severly steep difficult steps/rocks etc (of which there are maybe two or three bits on my local trails) I flick the switch. It feels locked out if you are just riding with it, but it will give slowly on a big hit. It’s over-the-bars insurance on the nadgery bits basically. And it also effectively locks it out on roads, which is where it gets more use tbh.

Nice system though – configurable. I didn’t realise that the floodgate still worked when the lever is not locked out though, but it is obvious thinking about it. The manual section dealing with this is terribly badly written.

I don’t think the floodgate does work when not locked out. I think the person writing that has misunderstood.

I think that if you have low compression damping it’d never activate anyway.

However if you rode with high compression with the lever not flicked, it’ll open if you hit it on something, kind of like a Specialized Brain, but cruder. No idea how this would work. Remind me to try it out when I get back to my Orange 5 in August 🙂

transapp – Member
It appears that the result is ‘deal with it’ and ‘whats the problem’ surrounded by some willy waving and you know nothing posts.
Typical STW then!

transapp, it must have escaped your notice that a number of people, and not just me, took the trouble to post perfectly reasonable comments and experiences. It’s irrelevant whether you agree with them, or that they don’t apply to you. People took time and trouble to reply. If that’s your attitude to them trying to be helpful I hope that nobody pays any attention to anything you post in future

transapp, it must have escaped your notice that a number of people, and not just me, took the trouble to post perfectly reasonable comments and experiences. It’s irrelevant whether you agree with them, or that they don’t apply to you. People took time and trouble to reply.

+1

and as for agreeing with TJ, personally I find almost all his advice on suspension set-up notoriously poor.

Interesting GW as we are often close in what we say as we are on this thread.

Yeah he tried to tell me once that roadgoing motorbike suspension had the same performance requirements as MTB suspension 🙂

TandemJeremy – Member

Interesting GW as we are often close in what we say as we are on this thread. a ha ha.. No TJ, we honestly aren’t very often 😉

Ps. did you type that (almost impossible to interpret) reply from a phone?

Na – just didn’t punctuate.

Molgrips – I never did say that.

Molgrips – I never did say that.

You bloody well did. You might not’ve meant to, which is another issue.

TandemJeremy – Member

I don’t think the floodgate does work when not locked out. I think the person writing that has misunderstood.

The short version is yes it does.
The longer version i’ve posted previously here:
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/fork-setup

retro – just ‘cos you keep posting it does not mean its right. The ones I own certainly do not have any effect at all when not on – they can’t possibly – you can see this when you dismantle them

Yup, I think the floodgate works when not locked out too. I believe it works independently of the compression setting as per my previous post on this thread. Compression lever sets the compression damping you want. Floodgate determines the point at which the compression setting is bypassed. The floodgate should always be set to maximum, or at least as high as the compression setting

Edit – at least that’s what I reckon on my new 2011 Revs. Not sure about earlier models

TandemJeremy – Member

retro – just ‘cos you keep posting it does not mean its right. The ones I own certainly do not have any effect at all when not on – they can’t possibly – you can see this when you dismantle them

Well CaptainMainwaring is totally correct too, as are several others on here. Kapusta, BadMechanic, Doug, RobotChicken and some others on MTBR have explained how it works too.

In fact here’s RobotChicken’s explanation – as he does a better job than I can:

Robot Chicken @ MTBR
Here’s a breakdown of how motion control works:

You have a plastic spring tube that compresses from the oil pressure. It can compress up to around a quarter inch.

At the bottom of the spring tube is a hole. This is the compression hole. The compression knob turns a rod that adjusts how much of the hole is showing.

The bottom of the plastic spring tube is sealed off from the inside of the tube to force oil through the compression hole. Locking the compression closes this hole.

The bottom of the spring tube is a sleeve that covers the compression hole. As oil pressure rises the spring tube gets pushed back. The floodgate setting is nothing more than a metal rod that screws in and out and adjusts the distance from it and the bottom of the spring tube where the compression hole is. Under full open loose floodgate, the rod is all the way down and nearly touching the compression damper.

When the compression is locked out, it will not open again until it has been pushed upwards by the oil pressure and is touching the floodgate rod. The floodgate rod opens the compression hole upon contact and opens it more and more depending on how high the oil pressure is.

Backing the floodgate all the way up to full firm will cause the comrpression unit to travel a longer distance before being opened and letting oil through and leveling the oil pressure. The spring tube is something like 5000 lbs/in so moving it becomes very hard the longer it has to move before opening. This is why the fork can literally become totaly locked out with full FG. It’s because the spring tube needs to compress more than the rider’s weight can fullfill before openeing the compression hole.

Quite frankly, it’s the most effective and simple system you can make. The floodgate setting is pretty much like having an adjustable shim stack without having to change shims.

Floodgate also works as a high speed valving:

It requires over twice as much fork speed and pressure to get the compression unit to compress when it isn’t fully closed. This is because the oil is allowed to flow through and doesn’t create enough pressure and normal speeds to compress the spring tube enough to bring the compression unit in contact with the floodgate rod. Thus you must loosen the floodgate which lowers the floodgate rod closer to the compression unit. That way the floodgate rod is doing something on faster hits and is helping to level off oil pressures.

In full open compression mode, the floodgate is useless no matter what setting it is in. There is just too much oil being let through the compression hole to generate enough pressure to push the spring tube back enough.

You must close the compression hole half or all the way in order to effectively use floodgate as a high speed valving.

Ideally you want to have the compression hole set fairly tight in order to control fork movement on slow speeds. Stuff like pedal bobing and fork dive are slow speed events. You want to close the compression so as to limit the fork’s ability to move at slow speeds. You then want to loosen the floodgate so that the rod is all the way down to the compression damper. That way ANY movement faster than pedal bobing or fork dive will cause the compression unit to hit the floodgate rod and open the compression hole, thus letting oil through and letting the fork move like normal.

The reason myself and Kapusta like that setting is because it provides the most consistant damping, very linear in respect to oil blowoff.

Running the compression halfway open and closing floodgate all the way tight so the rod is way up will result in a super progressive damping, which is not what you want for most riding. It won’t control ANY low speed movements and use too much travel at higher speeds. Running full floodgate with open compression is asking for a horrible ride no different than an SSV fork.

Running full locked compression and using a light floodgate is the best you can get to a platform feel, but with better bump ability and consistant damping through the whole stroke. This setting doesn’t degrade bump smoothness much and makes the fork ride higher and more controlled. IMO this system is incredibly more usefull and versatile than any SPV fork. I can’t stand riding any SPV fork after having Motion Control.

On the other hand though leaving compression full open is nice for maximizing wet traction, when traction is more important than eliminating fork dive or pedal bob.

Well, there’s the short explanation of it all…

edit: one great thing about the Motion control damping system is that it provides a seamless movement when pushing open the compression hole with the floodgate rod. Instead of a system that has an on/off switch where it goes from locked to loose in 2 mm of fork compression, motion control has a bit of give before hitting the floodgate rod and letting oil through.

The spring damper tube can compress roughly a quarter inch. Due to the fluid dynamics of the oil push rod, it takes more fork movement than 1mm to get the oil level to move up 1mm, thus there is a leverage ratio acting on the spring tube. This allows the fork to still compress even when the compression hole is still locked and hasn’t hit the floodgate rod yet. Try locking compression and then running floodgate full tight, you will notice this compression in the spring tube adds up to around 20mm.

That all provides for one hell of a seamless system.

Good explanation here too
http://mtbpuertorico.blogspot.com/2010/08/tech-article-how-rockshox-motion.html

As usual with suspension huge misunderstandings abound. I have 3 rockshox fork with varients of poplocks and none of them do or can possibly have any effect when the poplock is open. I have dismantled them and know how they work.

Infact that explanation agrees with me

In full open compression mode, the floodgate is useless no matter what setting it is in. There is just too much oil being let through the compression hole to generate enough pressure to push the spring tube back enough.You must close the compression hole half or all the way in order to effectively use floodgate as a high speed valving.

TJ – you know those times when you “think” I’m agreeing with you in a suspension discussion? well.. I’d just like to let you know that this is def not one of them.
What others have said here is correct, I don’t even know who you think you’re argueing with on this one but no matter how many times you’ve dismantled your “poploc”, looked at it and not understood how it works (or indeed what a “poploc” is in the first place) you’ll be missing the point entirely until you stop being a stuborn old goat and take the time to read and comprehend some of the replies and links others have posted.
Clue: they’re talking about how the mo-co damper actually works, the “poploc” you keep harping on about is (to me, anyway) just one varient of remote lever to control said damper.

<EDIT> if by “open” you actually meant “Full open” all along, then fair enough, it’s just your poor comunication skills at fault (again)
or was your last post actually a U-turn after re-reading the thread? 😕

TandemJeremy – Member

As usual with suspension huge misunderstandings abound. I have 3 rockshox fork with varients of poplocks and none of them do or can possibly have any effect when the poplock is open. I have dismantled them and know how they work.

Well you keep asserting that you know how they work but have given no actual details as to why you think this is the case.

Seems pointless continuing anyway, so I’m out. I suggest you might like to take 5 mins to read RobotChicken’s post which I quoted above and gives the real explanation of how it works in detail.

TandemJeremy – Member

Infact that explanation agrees with me

No, you said:

TandemJeremy – Member

I don’t think the floodgate does work when not locked out. I think the person writing that has misunderstood.

‘Not locked out’ does not equal 0%. It equals anything less than 100%.

And referencing Kapusta’s post, it says ‘a mid compression setting’. At no point have I talked about having the dial fully open (0%).

This is the relevant bit from Robot Chicken’s post:

In full open compression mode, the floodgate is useless no matter what setting it is in. There is just too much oil being let through the compression hole to generate enough pressure to push the spring tube back enough.

You must close the compression hole half or all the way in order to effectively use floodgate as a high speed valving.

Now I really am out!

Thats right – open the poplock it has no effect! Exactly waht I said all along.

I knew what names would be e-pwning on this thread before I opened it 😮

Did you ****. Your first post was this:

TandemJeremy – Member

The RS forks I have with poplock don’t work anything like that.

Which is in response to this:

1) With the compression all the way open (lowest or counterclockwise setting) the floodgate setting makes little difference because the fluid (and therefore the fork shaft) have to move incredibly fast to build up enough pressure to open the floodgate. The floodgate must be set to full soft (counter clockwise, lowering the pressure needed to override the compression damper) in order to have any effect. So what you have is very little compression dampening until you have a big, fast hit, and then you have even less. Personally, I don’t see why anyone would want this (compression and floodgate both at min). You’d may as well just loose the compression damper and the floodgate altogether, and save some weight and money. Plus, as I will explain below, the lockout feature is also now totally useless.

2) With a more moderate compression setting, with the Floodgate set to open at higher fork (an fluid) speed you have something like Marzocchi’s HSCV that overrides the damper just as it reaches the fluid speed that causes spiking. I used this setting for a while and it felt a lot like my `03 Z1 FR.

3) With a high compression setting (small damper hole), pressure builds up very easily at lower fluid speeds. The floodgate is set up to open at pretty low fuid speeds. This gives you a fork that resists bobbing and diving fairly well, but opens seamlessly up for any bumps. This is my favorite setup.

And as I posted earlier in the thread

As I think molgrips refers to above, there is a version of the poploc with a blue dial which adjusts how much compression damping is set without affecting the locked position. Essentially giving you the same amount of control as with the fork-top controls but a bit more convenience.

Closing browser now. Back to work.

TJ in this thread = hilarious 😀

I bow to the true master.

I have a set of Magura Durins with what sounds like a similar system. I can lock them out completely or using a dial on the lock out I can set the lockout to varying degrees of compression damping from very very stiff right the way down to not that stiff at all but stiffer than fully open. I used it a few times on steep, fast decents but in order to keep the fork active I decided it was best to switch off the lockout and just run a little less sag. I thought this lock out was for climbing not desending. Was I wrong?

And there’s me thinking it was all ‘magic’.

My first post

air or coil?

This i an area I can predict a row

The poplock will prevent this happening but at the expense of bump absorption Basically it locks the fork out. braking always gives some dive. IMO live with it or increase the spring rate ( add air / harder spring).

People will tell you to use the poplock for this I bet.

Ok, for fear of re-starting the argument…

Sorry for upseting the people who did try try to help, Some of the replies were indeed useful, although I will admit to still being more than a tad confused. I think I need dual air setup for dummies. That’s sort me out.
It’s just the normal fight about whos’s right that gets my goat. Can’t we all just have a group hug?

Sorry for the arguement as well

Try more air. set the fork up harder.

If thats not enough you can try using the poplock / lockout

depends exactly what type of lockout / poplock you have but you can use this but you will lose all small bump sensitivity. The poplock / lockout comes in a bunch of different varieties but set it so the fork is stiffer but the blowoff blows off easily. So the fork will not dive so much but a big hit will force it to travel

let air out of both chambers, set positive first then the negative to the same pressure, check sag,re adjusting pressures agin if necessary, put a little compression on the adjuster.
Refer to my setup guide for fault diagnosis and give me a call or mail if your stuck 😀

http://locotuning.co.uk/tech-info.html

Hope that helps!

haven’t read the rest of the thread as, well, it’s two pages and it’s midnight

Or go and buy some 2001 marz comp forks, take them for a ride, realise you initially never had it so good, and not worry too much?
Sometimes you need to accept, when riding all mountain, that forks are great for 90% of what you ride, and ok for 10%, regardless of how they are set up…

DrP

Interesting to note that most motorcycle manufacturers tried Anti-Dive forks in the 1970s (usually some sort of valve in the suspension which closed under braking) and subsequently abandoned it in favour of more complex fork valving.

Well, I started to skip through this after a while, but of course the Floodgate works when the fork isn’t locked out. That is the whole point of it. Ride up a road out of the saddle with the fork open and it won’t move if it is adjusted correctly. But start bouncing up and down on it and it moves (fairly…) freely.

As for me, I just removed the Floodgate on my Lyrik 2Step and the fork feels much better without it. Just add some low speed compression if you don’t want the fork to dive under braking, hitting berms, jumps etc.

unless you have mission control that is not an option though