Sunday Trading Laws – What does STW think?

Reading about the latest raft of Lockdown changes had a possibility that Sunday Trading Laws might have been changed, but it looks like Boris is likely to drop these plans based upon another likely backlash from various MPS.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52954739
I’ll be honest, I don’t get it. Surely this whole experience has shown that the modern world is one that should embrace flexibility, working from home, flexible working times etc.

to legislate to limit trading on a Sunday from religious grounds seems anachronistic to me. I get that it might not be the saviour of the economy, but just seems a sensible thing to tod to allow shops to decide what is appropriate and profitable to do and not have their hands tied by some weird legislation.
how can we deregaulte the financial markets but still stop shops from opening after 4pm because its a weekend?

But maybe I’m missing something much deeper or more sinister about wanting to relax them. after all, even David Cameron wanted to change them.

So what am I missing?
Why is Labour and the backbench Tory MPs so against relaxing the limitations?
Does STWers believe sunday trading should stay as it is or be relaxed?

backbench Tory MPs so against relaxing the limitations?

Who knows. Perhaps they think their voters have some old school ideas about Sunday being a day for relaxing and all that.

Anyway.

The whole thing sounds like a squirrel. Don’t look at covid, look at this.

You are missing something.

Sunday trading has got nothing or very little to do with religion and more to do with giving protection to shop workers.

i.e there is one day that shops are not open full gas and so can do with slightly less staff giving the chance for some staff to have one day off with their family.

Personally I would go further with sunday trading and reduce it even more.

It can have unintended economic consequences perhaps. The more days and hours shops open the more it costs them. You can’t ask anyone to work 8-8 seven days a week so it’s more staff to manage not just more hours to pay for

But the money shoppers have to spend is finite. The general public isn’t sitting on giant unspent mounds of cash because the shops close an hour before they managed to finish spending  it all at on a Sunday so while shoppers might appreciate more choices of time to shop they won’t actually spend and more money.

i.e there is one day that shops are not open full gas and so can do with slightly less staff giving the chance for some staff to have one day off with their family.

Except it doesn’t do that at all. They still open 10-5. How “full gas” that is is just a function of how many people go shopping on a Sunday.

When I worked in a shop it wasn’t like you could do anything <10am anyway other than have an hour extra in bed, and a 4pm finish just meant that your days work ended up paying almost 3 hours less.

Having spent years working in a shop affected by Sunday trading laws, it doesn’t protect staff at all – if you are scheduled to work on a Sunday you are either paid less because you work less hours, or make up the hours on a different day.

Sunday trading should be scrapped permanently.

Bring back half day wednesday.

to legislate to limit trading on a Sunday from religious grounds seems anachronistic to me. I get that it might not be the saviour of the economy, but just seems a sensible thing to tod to allow shops to decide what is appropriate and profitable to do and not have their hands tied by some weird legislation.
how can we deregaulte the financial markets but still stop shops from opening after 4pm because its a weekend?

It’s not being limited on religious grounds- among other reasons, schools work on a Monday-Friday basis- this limitation gives another group a fighting chance of a bit of family time.

While we may have de-regulated the financial markets (whatever you think that means), you may also have noticed that they haven’t really taken it upon themselves to staff offices on Saturday and Sundays.

We’ve largely deregulated the retail industry too, btw. Opening hours is a different issue.

From a health of staff point of view the shops should be shut all day on Sunday. If that’s a problem for some shoppers maybe they need to have a look at their lives and make some changes. At some point one of the big chains will crunch the numbers and realise that some of the longer hours stuff is of marginal benefit to their bottom line. At the moment it’s a death march to see who breaks first.

I think a lot of people would benefit from having Sunday as a guaranteed day off and not being dragged to retail parks. For those who work in cafes or pubs and alike, if we really want them to work on Sunday and not be able to spend it relaxing with family and/or friends, they should get get a premium pay rate or extra annual leave.

Far too many live life permanently in the fast lane and society in general and some individuals are suffering for it.

Always amazes me, and catches me out that England still has this! Scotland has never had any Sunday trading laws, albeit in some island communities you are very restricted on Sundays.

I get that it might not be the saviour of the economy, but just seems a sensible thing to tod to allow shops to decide what is appropriate and profitable to do and not have their hands tied by some weird legislation.

Shops don’t really get to decide though. If their competitors are open then they don’t really have much choice.

Sunday trading has got nothing or very little to do with religion and more to do with giving protection to shop workers

What about loads of other workers that have to work Sunday? The shop workers still have to go in. A better solution imo is minimum wage on a Sunday should be double time normal minimum wage and if you work one Sunday the next Sunday is optional. I.e can’t be forced to do two Sundays in a row. The double bubble helps all low paid workers on a Sunday and the non sequential shift helps people have at least one proper day off.

I’d happily go back to stricter Sunday trading laws where shops are shut and that’s it. Modern life is fast-paced and having just one day a week where the world slows down is surely a benefit to everybody.

The roots of the Sunday trading laws may be connected with religious beliefs but those beliefs were a means of addressing a healthy balance in our daily lives. Take the religious aspect out of it and there’s nothing anachronistic about it at all, it’s a way of life still practiced all over the world. We’re obsessed with convenience, all too often at the expense of our own well-being.

Next Sunday, instead of going for a nice ride, then spending time with the family, go and spend 12 hours in Tesco’s getting verbally abused.

I think a lot of people would benefit from having Sunday as a guaranteed day off and not being dragged to retail parks

I have shopping but for me I am at work during the week so if I have to go to the shops Sunday is one of the only two days or sometimes one day I can go. It’s not the case that people shopping on a Sunday are all mad consumer shopaholics.

I see no reason to relax the regs and would have no complaints if sunday trading was banned other than for corner/convenience stores.

how many shops rely on weekend trade when there are more people with ‘free’ time to go shopping?

There will also be groups of people to whom shopping is a pastime in itself, spent with the family (not everyone goes out in the fresh air mountain biking!).

IMO shops who can afford/choose to stay closed on a Sunday then good on them, but give THEM the choice.

Nobody is forced to go shopping 7 days a week. I would hope that no retail employee is forced to work 7 days a week every week.

There is no hectic pace of life except what you make of your own life. If you work mon to fri and want to sit at home on a sunday and not go to a shop or pub or cafe you are perfectly free to do so. Saturday might be busier and less pleasant though, as people cram two days worth of shopping into one.

Out of interest do any of the people above saying life is too hectic, and/or Sunday should be relaxing with the family, have a stay at home or part time working spouse by any chance?

Out of interest do any of the people above saying life is too hectic, and/or Sunday should be relaxing with the family, have a stay at home or part time working spouse by any chance?

What is “part time”? 40 hrs?

IMO shops who can afford/choose to stay closed on a Sunday then good on them, but give THEM the choice.

But then you just end up back in the race to the bottom where everyone is open because they feel that all their competitors are open. Or the big retail chains who can afford to pay staff take trade away from the high street (even more than they already do).

Why draw the line at shops? Plenty of manufacturing facilities will be operating.

Like TheBrick above, I work a forty hour Mon-Fri week, so anything I need to buy can only be done at weekends. Or evenings, I suppose.

I do the weekly supermarket run on Saturday, which when you combine the fact that I usually go to at least three different supermarkets, some of them a good 10-15 minute drive from the next one, and the added time spent queuing to get into each of them, means that Sunday is the only day I have left For everything else.

So for me, the sooner they relax Sunday trading rules, the better.

Why draw the line at shops? Plenty of manufacturing facilities will be operating.

Not to mention the tourism and hospitality industries.

From a health of staff point of view the shops should be shut all day on Sunday. If that’s a problem for some shoppers maybe they need to have a look at their lives and make some changes. At some point one of the big chains will crunch the numbers and realise that some of the longer hours stuff is of marginal benefit to their bottom line. At the moment it’s a death march to see who breaks first.

Why not give up one day a week of your work instead?

This falls into those “wouldn’t it be nice if everyone else did something” arguments. There should be more tax, at a threshold just above what I earn. People should be banned from working on days I don’t work anyway.

And where’s the line? Can’t take the kids swimming because the lifeguards are off, can’t go to the football club because the Ref’s aren’t working, can’t go out for lunch as the cafe’s are shut, can’t do any gardening as the tips are shut, etc. Hospitals? Police? Do they get a day off?

given the way retail is generally going, surely enforcing harsher opening hours would just be another nail in their coffin (especially as online is moving to same-day delivery in well populated areas)?

I don’t really care, I buy almost nothing in physical shops these days (probably spend less than £30 a month – just do it all online) – but it seems that some people think the death of the high street is a bad thing

Bring back half day wednesday.

We never lost it here.

Like TheBrick above, I work a forty hour Mon-Fri week, so anything I need to buy can only be done at weekends. Or evenings, I suppose.

Why not just order it for delivery, get hours of your weekend back?

“I would hope that no retail employee is forced to work 7 days a week every week.”

No, but many are forced to work all weekend. This means they have no time to spend with the family who may only be off school/work on the weekend. In addition many of these people will probably be from low income households which means that “have a stay at home or part time working spouse by any chance” is less likely to be the situation.

I work in a small independant chain of 7 shops, none of whom open on a Sunday, though we could if we wanted to. The married staff and even many of the younnger ones all appreciate this.

Its just part of making life a bit nicer for everyone. Less traffic as well which means safer family cycling.

Both I and my wife are working (or have worked in my case) in high pressure long hours jobs and we rarely need to shop for anything on a Sunday.

No, but many are forced to work all weekend. This means they have no time to spend with the family who may only be off school/work on the weekend

What’s so special about shop workers in this respect?

I fully get that working Sunday can be crap. I’ve done it loads but in retail and other jobs. Good for you if you managed to always get stuff done on Saturday but your experience is not universal. I hate shopping but sometimes you need to go physically to the store. UK retail is already quite strange in that it is mainly open when most people are at work.

I’d like to see them scrapped. Nothing quite as annoying as finishing my own work on a Sunday only to discover that every shop bar the local Tesco Express closed at 4pm. Pay people more for working on a Sunday if you must, but early closing is just annoying.

I’d happily go back to stricter Sunday trading laws where shops are shut and that’s it.

Spot the 9-5, Monday to Friday worker.

taken from Twitter

AND ON EASTER SUNDAY JESUS DID RISE DECREEING THAT THE BIG TESCO MUST CLOSE IN HIS HONOUR BUT THE EXPRESS STORE CAN STAY OPEN FOR ESSENTIALS

— Dan (@ThatConnArtist) April 16, 2017

“AND ON EASTER SUNDAY JESUS DID RISE DECREEING THAT THE BIG TESCO MUST CLOSE IN HIS HONOUR BUT THE EXPRESS STORE CAN STAY OPEN FOR ESSENTIALS”

Two versions of my thoughts: the short version and the long.

Short version:

Why do we need MORE time to shop when we have online 24/7 and lots of places are open 8am to 8pm or 24hr for large supermarkets. The staff deserve a break so they can see family and friends and relax. The only reason to extend trading hours is so that the big companies can hoover up more of our money, it’s not for our benefit.

Long version:

If this pandemic situation has taught us anything is it’s that we need to slow the pace of life down so that we can start enjoying it rather than just living it. How many stories have you heard of people getting to know their neighbours for the first time, neighbourhoods coming together to look after each other, the vulnerable of society suddenly being visible and acknowledged? Having the time to pause and reassess things has made this world a much better place. having one day a week off from rampant consumerism so that we can all relax and wind down is one way of keeping this alive.
One company that never opens on a Sunday is The Entertainer. The owner does this for religious reasons, even on christmas eve, but also as he cares for the well-being of his staff. This means they have a very high staff retention rate and always come out very highly in staff satisfaction surveys. It’s not uncommon for people to cite having every Sunday off is part of the reason they work there despite being able to earn more elsewhere.
If somehow your life means you have to go shopping on a Sunday as the rest of your life is so full that you can’t shop any other time of the week despite lots of shops being open until 8 or 9pm most nights and large supermarkets being open 24/7 then either you have issues or could really do with looking at your life choices in detail.
What about the staff? They have to work most of the week on shifts that can be all over the place in terms of time. Surely they deserve, as key workers, to have one day a week guaranteed that they can have off when their friends and family are also off? Or are they just worker drones that have to service our every need?
As has been said above, if shops are allowed to open all day Sunday they will all be open. Once one is open longer their competitors won’t stay shut as they will lose market share in that area, something they hate doing.

What we should do after this pandemic is passed is enable more workers to work from home, encourage people to drop down to 4 days and encourage people to make time for exercise, relaxed socialising and looking out for others. Lots of us cry out that the world has become too busy, insular and nasty, this is our chance to change things for the better. Sadly it won’t happen as the issue of encouraging endless increases in consumerism is gain being hailed as the magic pill to make everything better.

For the record I would ban all Sunday trading, make alcohol only available in either pubs, restaurants or dedicated off-licenses and stop supermarkets selling it stupidly cheap as a loss-leader. Cigarettes would only be available from a tobacconist. At the moment we don’t really have freedom as a lot of people are slaves to the consumerism of working all week so that they can buy the lastest car/sofa/TV/gadget on credit then working more as they’ve overstretched themselves and so on.

We’re moving towards a new normal, let’s make it a better one.

Spot the 9-5, Monday to Friday worker.

As above, I agree with butcher. I’m not a 9-5 worker and don’t want to be.

Always caught me out when I was in England, and still catches me out when I’m in Germany at the weekend. The one thing that bothered me more than anything was restricted hours for buying alcohol, though. Here in the Netherlands I’ll do my shopping after I’ve dropped the kids off at school. Sometimes there’s nice beer on offer, and sometimes I buy it. At half past eight in the morning. Nobody bats an eyelid. Compare that to trying to buy a bottle of wine in Scotland at one minute to ten in the morning and the shame klaxon goes off. Ridiculous.

Why not give up one day a week of your work instead?

Currently no need as supermarkets are open early morning before work to the evening at around 8pm usually. One needs to be organised and plan the week. Failure to plan on my part does not make it a shop-staff problem.

Of your other examples only the lifeguard one gets close if the schools are open, everything else is usually down to operator choice or the staff work minimal hours. (There are cafés here that are shut Saturday afternoon and all day Sunday, their choice).

Surely it should be down to the shop and customers to decide what is best for them rather than someone in government saying when they should be allowed to go shopping?

I agree that people shouldn’t need to go shopping all the time and need to have dedicated family time, but why should it be government mandated when this is? Should this be expanded back to 9-5 working hours?

I’ve enjoyed the flexible working arrangements in the last few months the various companies have been tolerant to and I’d like to have it extended to other areas too.
obviously the workers rights and pressure to work every hour under the sun should be stamped on immediatel, but being limited on a sunday of opening times seems a limited too to achieve that. Sportsdirect and others are testament that regardless of opening hours, employers can be nasty

The bonfire of the regulations is on the way. This is just easing you in gently.

FWIW, I’m sure shop staff are forced to work more Sundays than they want to.
I wouldn’t have a problem with them having to do a full day IF the shop are not able (by law) to force staff to work more than 1 in 4. By that I mean 3 consecutive non working Sundays between working Sundays rather than some sort of hard to work out rolling 13 week average…

If that’s a problem for some shoppers maybe they need to have a look at their lives and make some changes.

Currently no need as supermarkets are open early morning before work to the evening at around 8pm usually. One needs to be organised and plan the week.

So if someone works 9-5 with an hour and a half commute each way that’s their problem so **** them? Spot the person who lives near their work with plenty of amenities nearby.

As for key worker shite, how does everyone feel about the key workers running the power stations and hospitals clocking out for the day? Do we not need family time as well? Or are retail workers somehow above that?

All that aside, I’m in Scotland anyway so only have to put up with our stupid alcohol laws to bask in the glory of not seeing jakeys out before 1000 (midday on a Sunday) or in shops after 2200.

If you want to protect workers Sunday trading is nowhere near where we should be starting. Regular, contracted hours and decent pay and benefits would go a lot further.