STW 2014/15 Rugby Thread

The Welsh teams are competitive in the pro12

Not really 4th, 8,9,10th of 12. Onlyvthe italians are below scarlets, blues and dragons.

galaticos of the Ospreys, throwing millions at southern hemi mercenaries wont do the game in Wales any good.

Doesnt have to be one or the other. But when the O’s had Holah, Filo, Marshall et al it didnt stop them producing loads of Wales players.

Those players are better than Arhip, Ardron, Bernado, Cuvibati, Dirkson, Hassler, Matevasi, Natoga and Steenkamp…dross.

Yes it is, the owners are the Fremch eq of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Rupert Murdoch. Even allowing for the huge wages, they have prob lost more down their sofa.

What happens when they get bored, lose their money, get locked up or die?
Toulons budget this year was reported to be 35 million euros!!!! Shit the ****ing bed!!!!

Listening to it on the radio sounded like the dream Ba Ba’s side 😆

I’m sceptical of that number @wrecker. I think some of the other French sides are spending more. Dan Carter doesnt come cheap and if Toulon had that sort of budget they would have a better 10 than Michelak

Exactly wrecker.

Listening to it on the radio sounded like the dream Ba Ba’s side

I doubt that Toulon have ever heard of Baabaas style throwabout rugby. They are THE trundle-orcs, if ever a team could be described as such. Such a waste of talent.

I’m sceptical of that number @wrecker. I think some of the other French sides are spending more. Dan Carter doesnt come cheap and if Toulon had that sort of budget they would have a better 10 than Michelak

It might be bollocks.
Was reading about glaws. For sale for £25m-odd. They aren’t going to win the euro cup, or even the AP any time soon but they play decent rugby, have a fair sized following, some good players and they turn a 1/2M profit every year. There’s a lot to be said for that. Sure there are better investment opportunities around, but for a wealthy fan its a goer surely?

if Toulon had that sort of budget they would have a better 10 than Michelak

They do.

Sanchez, Hernandez and Giteau.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/67679725/former-all-blacks-prop-ben-afeaki-forced-to-retire-with-concussion-problems

Burgess to start as flanker, will be interesting.

Interesting stuff a_a. It’s a shame for the bloke but he seems to be a sensible chap who recognises that there’s more to life than Rugby. Good luck to him.

“Once I got all the information from the medical staff the actual decision was quite easy,”

I wonder how a boxer or MMA fighter would get on?

@wrecker – 10x earnings puts Gloucester at £5m. Clearly I have no idea how valuing sports franchises really works but there is nothing like the money in rugby that there is in football which just keeps going up and up. From what I know owning Rugby clubs has been a rich mans hobby, the Toulon owner has put in a big amount over the last 5+ years.

@Pigface, yes interesting indeed, its been discussed since he came over as to whether he’d play flanker or centre. I’d say flanker is more technical and harder to pick up quickly if you’ve not been playing there for years. I wonder if the emergence of all the centre talent for England has promoted this. We shall see.

@wrecker – 10x earnings puts Gloucester at £5m.

That valuation doesn’t include any assets though does it?

From what I know owning Rugby clubs has been a rich mans hobby, the Toulon owner has put in a big amount over the last 5+ years.

Kind of the point, Glaws is sustainable in that it turns a profit. Whilst there are better investments out there, at least this won’t be a complete money pit like many clubs would. Bath lost £2.9m this year and £3.5-odd last year.

Gloucester is probably as good a bet as you’d get for an investment in the AP. Turns a profit, owns its own ground, plus if rumour has it, a fair amount around the immediate vicinity. I bet if you remove the `home’ matches at Twickenham, Wembley etc, only Tigers attract a bigger crowd. Average AP gate this season is over 14k so with a capacity of 16.5k, there is room for improvement.

I dunno scamper;
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/stats/attendance.php#koP2isMuKlWo02m4.97

But broadly agreed that Glaws isn’t a bad business. I have no idea if it’s worth anywhere near £25M though.

I can’t believe Irish, Sarries, Quins etc get those totals from your day in, day out Premiership matches outside Twickers

I call bobbins on those figures Exeter get really good crowds, What is the capacity at Bath it used to be tiny.

Here’s last years from another source;
http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=436

I think the wreck used to hold 12k, now 14k. According to my ST holding colleague, most home games are a sell out. Sandy Park holds 12.5K. Exeter don’t have as many fans as barf.

I think Exeter is about 10k? Barth can’t be more than about 12k surely? EDIT, there you go.

Funny thing is, I’m pretty sure Glaws attendance figures this year are back up to where they were when they were regularly challenging for the title 6 years or so ago. So they must be doing something right off the pitch along with evidently more use of the Facilities outside rugby.

Glaws are lucky IMHO. A fairly sizable city with a monopoly on live sport (at a decent level), no soccer or whatever to try and compete with. It’s brilliant! I wish we in brizzle could sack both of our shit soccer teams and just be a rugby city!

those figures are massively skewed by the “super Saturday” games at borrowed stadiums these show averages and (freak) highest

http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=469

edit

wrecker found it too 🙂

I wonder if the emergence of all the centre talent for England has promoted this. We shall see.

….we’re hardly short on Flankers though either are we? Certainly not 6’s anyway….there’s no way that he’s going to play 7 is there?!

Tend to agree that they’d be a great investment for someone who wanted to buy a rugby team.
The fans are there, their own grounds there, lack of debt, bring through their own players too – with a decent catchment area.

And they’ve got David Humphrey’s running the show – if you look at what he did with Ulster in recent history you’ll see that success on the pitch shouldn’t be a complete pipe-dream too.
Was a good interview with him on Irish news , but talking about Glaws now. His philosophy’s the same at Glaws now as it was at Ulster – and IMO it’s the same at the other provinces and is the fundamental driving force behind Irish rugby success at club level.

“I have always maintained that on-pitch success drives everything,” Humphreys said.
“The better you do on the pitch, the more people will come and watch you. The more people who come and watch you, the more sponsors you can attract. The more sponsors you can attract, the more money you have for recruitment, facilities and the academy.
“This league is so tough that you need to build a squad that can sustain a challenge for the entire season.”

http://www.the42.ie/david-humphreys-ulster-2027944-Apr2015/

Also, meant to pick up on this earlier

The competition in the European cup is essentially the IRU and unrestrained spending.

IRFU involvement is a massive red herring when talking about Irish success. Leinster would carry on as they are as a sustainable club without the IRFU. They generate their own income, through gates, prize money and merchandise , not from central funds. Think only a couple of clubs in Europe have higher average attendances – Bordeaux and Leicester spring to mind. It’s that sort of philosophy above, with cooperation and people pulling in the same direction that drives the success.
Ulster and Munster are similar – self suficient- and have less outgoings as they both own their own grounds. Don’t think Connacht are quite there, but they’re a vital part of the overall success as they complete the set up as 4 provinces – which is what the fans want, it the “goldilocks” set up for this situation and the fans and player numbers involved.
Otherwise the regions might as well be franchises.

But would the Irish players still want to stay there if they had to pay all their tax?

You’ve still got almost the entire Ireland national side spread around 2 teams, and the support should be good; there aren’t many clubs competing for fans! IRFU involvement in the success is anything but a red herring!

Duckman,
Do players play rugby for success on the pitch or for a tax status?

wrecker,
The spread of fans support is split between a similar number of teams as Wales and more than in Scotland, the two most comparable others, so number of teams is hardly a factor in determining club rugby success.
And how is the “almost the entire national side spread around 2 teams” any different from Scotland? Apart from the fact it’s actually 4.

The support is spread of fans is split between a similar number of teams as Wales and more than in Scotland, the two most comparable others, so it’s hardly a factor in determining club rugby success.

Eh? Concentrating your best players into a few teams at the expense of a national league is going to be an advantage to the national side. And I don’t think the welsh regions get the kind of numbers that Munster and Leinster do.

And how is the “almost the entire national side spread around 2 teams” any different from Scotland?

Because the Irish are actually quite good. They have plenty of support, ample money and a very good grassroots structure.

Apart from the fact it’s actually 4.

How many players from Ulster and Connaught were in the Irish 1st XV this 6N?

Do players play rugby for success on the pitch or for a tax status?

I think most pro players play for money if they eanted on field sucess they would go to Toulon. To suggest that the Irish Rugby Union dont contribute to success by paying anything is odd.

There are hundreds of thousands of people who pay (a little) to play the game for the love of it, our subs were £4 per game. I like to think most professional players play because they love the game, it just happens that they get paid to do it.

I like to think most professional players play because they love the game, it just happens that they get paid to do it.

I think they do at the start, and consider themselves very lucky. Our coach played for Bath and Wasps. He suffered injury after injury, and now says that if he had his time again he doubts he’d choose to have gone pro. Others have become a bit jaded, having had time in AP and champ clubs (some still playing). A few years in, it is a job and one they can’t afford to quit.

I’m sure they do love the game but they also wamted good money. Irish teams in combination with central contracts and a favourable tax situation means they pay well. I’m sure those two new kiwi lads havent moved to ireland for the standard of rugby or the guiness.

Concentrating your best players into a few teams at the expense of a national league is going to be an advantage to the national side.

We were talking about club success and what gives Irish the advantage there, not about International success – which until very recently has been a whole lot rarer. The concentration in fewer clubs actually means they take a much bigger hit at 6N and autumn international time with players away. Hardly a club advantage for the games that carry on, apart from the fact it’s made them invest in their youth and development set-ups to try to maintain and build on what they’ve achieved.
Anyway, it’s not a case of the Irish clubs bringing players in and concentrating them in a few teams. It’s actually the teams investing in youth and development , bringing their own players through and building sucessful teams based on them, and then them players going on to represent their country at International level. Successfully.

And I don’t think the welsh regions get the kind of numbers that Munster and Leinster do.

Not at present. But they did 10-15 years ago, even more tbh. Leinster were struggling to sell out Donnybrook with 6000 capacity. Now they’ve had to move to keep up with fan interest, based on performances on the pitch. It comes back to club success driving supporter interest driving income and re-investment. What the IRFU do deserve credit for is prioritizing investment coaching, training and development of young players.
As I mentioned before, the initial set up is “goldilocks” IMO because 4 teams as 4 provinces just fits so well with what’s there already. You couldn’t choose a better way to have if you had 1000 years. It’s taken advantage of a natural fan loyalty underlying the situation. And player and supporter numbers just happen to workout so well with 4. You could say The IRFU got lucky in this regard, but it’s not so different from what the WRU and SRU have tried to do.

Because the Irish are actually quite good. They have plenty of support, ample money and a very good grassroots structure.

Based on good home grown player coming through a good youth development structure and achieving good club success

Here’s a very accurate picture of Irish rugby club finances;
http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

Regardless of tax, the players are well paid.

Pah, to you and your facts. The irish stay in ireland because they love their mams and country. Not like those welsh who would sell their nans for a contract in France.

So, I see Future World Cup Winner Sam is playing in the back row today.

On another note, the Ospreylian front row are playing beautiful rugby on the wings tonight! Soft hands, bach!

They’re getting mullered in the scrum, mind you!

Glasgow are giving Cardiff a bit of a lesson tonight.

Is it me, or is Burgess not quite all that?

For all the hype, Burgess seems to be quite a decent, honest chap. I wish him all the best (which is saying something; I’m a bristol fan) and to be fair, he hasn’t looked out of place so far at all.