STW 2014/15 Rugby Thread

And he gets to play with Gav!! Worth more than money.

impressive, must have done some “conditioning” during his time off!!

Thanks BM, I didn’t really see it first time round. Sneaky French snuch that in.
Will Monsieur Pape get a few weeks rest for that? He’ll be cited surely?

I’m not really seeing a great deal wrong with that knee. Not saying it wasnt a foul but its not the worst thing I have seen and there is smidgen of play acting by the Irish player. A bit of amateur dramatics by players on both sides in the Wales V Scotland game as well.

smidgen of play acting by the Irish player

If he has indeed fractured 3 vertibrae, I’d say he underplayed it if anything!

The French clubs are not subject to a salary cap.

And neither are the English championship clubs believe it or not!

If he has indeed fractured 3 vertibrae, I’d say he underplayed it if anything!

If thats the case then I take it back. I watched it from all the angles it just seemed cynical in my opinion and I wasnt getting the impression there was a huge amount of force. It wasnt my back however…

I would expect Pape to be cited and banned for the rest of the 6N

And neither are the English championship clubs believe it or not!

Is that right, I thought they where or at least the owners had a voluntary agreement ?

I’m not really seeing a great deal wrong with that knee. Not saying it wasnt a foul but its not the worst thing I have seen and there is smidgen of play acting by the Irish player.

That was my reaction too. I still think it was one of those things that happens every ruck or maul although the outcome for Heaslip is clearly awful. I don’t think things like this should ever be judged on the effect, but the cause, as the injury is a bit of a freak thing (clearly horrible for Heaslip!).

The citing process does annoy me when you have 4 people looking at the video during the game and come to a decision yet you can guarantee the offence will get upgraded following a review then most of the extra ban time knocked off for taking the review panel a bouquet of flowers.

The problem with the foul isn’t necessarily the relative tameness of it; it’s the possible outcome. In my view, a knee to the head or back is far worse than a knee to the leg for example. Backs are very fragile and whoever designed them needs shooting!

Is that right, I thought they where or at least the owners had a voluntary agreement ?

Getting the champ clubs to agree on something? 😆
Their agendas are so different, it would never happen. Aparently Bris and Wuss have similar operational spends.

I’m not sure I could see massively obvious intent from Pape in that. Just entering the ruck at full chat, perhaps recklessly when an opposition player is turned and in a very vulnerable position.

I can’t see the kind of aiming you’d expect from a deliberate hit, he seems to be looking past Heaslip into the ruck. So he’s either very good at disguising a cynical knee-plant, or is more concerned with hitting the back of the ruck hard.

Obviously the potential for the kind of injuries that Heaslip has suffered is the reason that refs have to take it seriously, but yellow seems about right.

Barnes and Heaslip have seen more blatant knees…

Red at the time and 5 weeks off

The problem with the foul isn’t necessarily the relative tameness of it; it’s the possible outcome.

I kind of agree but on that basis would you send off and ban Attwood (?) for kicking North in the head? Reckless, against the laws and an awful outcome. It is a bit of a slippery slope. The citation process is a joke though so our views are irrelevant either way

I don’t think Attwoods kick was reckless. It certainly wasn’t a foul and that’s the main point.

Any time a lock tries to kick anything it is reckless 😆 Not the best comparison granted but I hate seeing someone get punished for something innocuous based on a freak outcome.

I don’t see Pape’s thing as any different to every lock ever running in to a tackle with high knees if the tackler goes low or a “handing off” elbow to the face of the tackler if they go high or the dozens of other bits of niggle they get involved in. Locks are horrible things!

I think it was both. Accidental but a pen nonetheless. Cant go round kicking out and catching peoples heads. Like Fin Russels hit on an airborne Bigger. Its reckless

Like Fin Russels hit on an airborne Bigger.

?
I disagree, Attwood was legally competing for a 50/50 ball. Russell ran into a bloke who was 4ft in the air for a ball which was loooong gone.

Attwood kicked North in the head knocking him out if that isnt reckless nothing is.

Attwood kicked North in the head knocking him out if that isnt reckless nothing is.

Reckless is headbutting a locks foot.

Oh and the Pape one is pure cheapshot and he should get a few weeks rest.

Did anyone see what the scrap at the end was about? Quite funny seeing Biggar march Baldwin off giving him a proper telling off!

Did anyone see what the scrap at the end was about?

Jim Hamilton doesn’t need a reason to start a fight. He just fights.

Dumb play though just wasted more time. Then Russell took an age over the kick. He should have drop kicked it or had it teed up ready and waiting.

Looking at the Pape yellow,I think there is little in it.Bit like both yellows on Sat. Just watched the game and just because “One rule for Wales and another for whoever they are playing” Jonathan thinks one could be red and the other was just a penalty,doesn’t make him right,neither of those was ever a red,but both were def yellow. Oh and Jackson was crap,but he was consistently crap,that is the single most important thing to have as a ref.

Ducks – what, if any, discretion is given to refs re “intent”. Question relates directly to the yellow cards on the high balls. I see the technical offence in both and hence obvious penalty, but no intent in either especially Finn’s yellow. So you decide not to challenge in the end, see a welsh player at pace with knees coming at you head and you turn away. Ok looked nasty, especially in slow mo, but can’t see any intent to harm the other player. Clumsy at worst.

Does this matter? Or is it an automatic yellow?

Ditto hard line on this but rarely does blocking a kicker or late tackle get pinged?

Taking the player out in the air is dangerous. Russell was nowhere near the ball and made no attempt to get it, then shit out when he thought he might get hurt. Certain yellow and if Biggar had stayed down it could have been a red. Davies was at least near the ball and making an attempt I thought the yellow harsh.

Agree and agreed (he basically decided to look after #1 as most would do at that point since impossible to do anything else) hence the question, is INTENT relevant at all. Purely technical question – as the coverage showed everyone will have “their” view (red or blue) but that is different. I just would like to know the specific ruling.

Agreed ^3 but arguably, the welsh player knew more about what he was doing. But can’t see a yellow in either personally. But then again I am wearing a white shirt!!! 😉

Talking of staying down the Scottish player (Lamont?) was never going to get up in a hurry was he!!! 😉

Was Beattie I think. The point about intent is what I was getting at earlier with Attwood booting North, no intent but reckless as with Warburtons tip tackle at the world cup. Players should have a duty of care over each other.

Perhaps, hence the question to our resident ref!

Ditto Rhys high tackle, again clumsy and the guy ducks so looks even worse. Should that have been a yellow? Duty of care to avoid high tackle? Not sure….but they have been given even when players duck into the tackle.

The head on heads are getting scary these days as is the clearing out. If you are defender and on your feet with hands over the ball and you get cleared out – your neck and spine seem just as vulnerable as when in the air. I am glad that my boots are firmly hung up these days. Different game, different game…..

Yes and no to A_A

I partly agree but does that mean that North became “untouchable” because he was diving for the ball? If that had been Atwood’s shoulder (similar to Brown on Saturday) would you still be as bothered? Is it the stray boot that bothers you or the resultant injury? A “duty of care” is a tough one. Was Masi in the wrong against Brown? No it was 50/50 and he came out better.

Finn Russell deserved a yellow but what is he meant to do, teleport out if the way? How does a guy stop or prevent it in that situation? According to the law you can’t ‘tap’ the guy in the air…

(i) Tackling the jumper in the air.
A player must not tackle nor tap, push or pull the foot or feet of an opponent jumping for the ball in a lineout or in open play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

What about this…this is extremely dangerous too…

https://vine.co/v/OPVVH5Hd3g3

Indeed, the rules seem to indicate penalty. But does a yellow require intent?

In real time, it seemed like a bad clash – but as you say there was nothing he could do. Ok, perhaps with greater timing he could have ducked, but not sure!!!

Didnt see the england game this weekend. If someone kicks a player in the head at a ruck its a pen dont see why it should be different in open play.

Is that Gethin. Dangerous play, off feet no arms but happens all the time in all pro games. The ruck needs sorting out. Should have been a pen against Hogg for not supporting his weight 😉

Finn Russell deserved a yellow but what is he meant to do, 

Go for the ball or wait for the player to land.

Russell was so late to that ball (it had been caught and the catcher was on the way down) that he was to blame. He wasn’t a passenger to his legs, he should have timed his run to hit matey when his feet hit the floor, just like the vast majority of other players manage to.

The only way to stop the Atwood/North instance reoccurring is to ban kicking the ball on the floor because once it’s there, someone will be trying to dive on it and/or kick it.

Broadly in agreement with a_a on the various yellows. The results of a challenge (EDIT: a foul) will always affect the punishment. See Hogg’s sending off last year. Payne’s sending off against Saracens in the Heiney. There’s no point in talking about intent anymore. They’re professionals – they can’t go wildly into challenges without a thought to consequences anymore. The Welsh yellow seemed harsh – penalty yes, but yellow…

The ref was consistently poor yesterday and tbh, after the first twenty, seemed to have lost confidence in his own decision making.

As for the Pape knee to Heaslip’s back, rather than giving my view through green tinged spectacles, to counter the view through blue, navy, red or white tinged specs here, I’d go with the professionals’ (neither of them Keith Wood) views given in the segment shown before the game yesterday. Williams and Nicol both said they thought it was deliberate, Nicol believing it will be upgraded to a red retrospectively. Only Guscott remained on the fence by saying that if Saint Andre has been told by his player that it was accidental, that that’s the information he has to convey when asked. I’m drawing my own conclusions from that one. 🙂

[green tinge]I don’t believe for a second it was accidental. I’m sure he didn’t mean to fracture a vertebra(e) when doing it, but if he did and it were to end Heaslip’s season (which from reading various press reports, seems likely), then he should be punished severely – certainly shouldn’t play for the rest of the 6N. It probably lost France the game as they were gaining a foothold at that point but that isn’t punishment enough IMO. He’s not an inexperienced player – a 50+ internationally capped professional has no place going into an exposed player’s back like that.[/green tinge]

Anyway, he has now been cited for it, so we’ll wait and see what happens to him.

AA was the Gethin question for me? If so, no, it was a general comment. The body is so vulnerable in that defensive position. I shudder when I see unprotected necks being smashed by 19st at full pelt.

The ref was consistently poor yesterday and tbh, after the first twenty, seemed to have lost confidence in his own decision making.

Did help by having that **** Clancy whispering in his ear all **** game. He is a good ref usually needs a bit more experience of big games. Should have binned Cowan first half and any welshman near the end.

Glad you dont listen to Wood, makes Jiffy seem balanced.

The ref was consistently poor yesterday and tbh, after the first twenty, seemed to have lost confidence in his own decision making.

Did help by having that **** Clancy whispering in his ear all **** game. He is a good ref usually needs a bit more experience of big games. Should have binned Cowan first half and any welshman near the end.

Glad you dont listen to Wood, makes Jiffy seem balanced.

Edit no thm was for whoever posted the vid, could see who it was

Glad you dont listen to Wood, makes Jiffy seem balanced.

Of course I listen to him, he’s great, but I’m more swayed by the neutrals’ views from before the game yesterday. I’d disagree that anyone else could make Jiffy seem balanced though. 😀

Didnt see the england game this weekend. If someone kicks a player in the head at a ruck its a pen dont see why it should be different in open play.

You were talking about a “duty of care” not just kicking in the head, but still…

If you are in a ruck the head is generally static so a kick is more avoidable and probably more deliberate.
In open play are you saying you should be able to predict where someone’s head might be and then not put your foot there or kick in that general direction? As a player North went for the ball knowing that someone might throw a boot at it, both brave but also somewhat foolish and he was hurt in the process.

First time I’ve seen that Pape knee vid and to me that’s a red card then and there. Hopefully be banned for a while as it’s dangerous and cynical.

I’d probably have red carded Russell for that ‘challenge’ on Biggar, dreadful effort.

The Welsh yellow card probably was about right. The ‘high tackle’ on the Scottish scrum half wasn’t though, as the boy ducks/slips into is arm and all at pace.

The Welsh prop is guilty as per the below IRB law

(h)
A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without use of the arms, or without grasping a player.