Starting running – to barefoot or not?

Well hopefully this has put the OP off going for a run. It’s serious business.

Like has been said above…

Just go and run

Find out for yourself, before spending on something that may not be right for you.

Once you know what’s right for you – and whether you want to continue running, that’s the time to seriously think about your ‘style’ of running.

I think its all a fad, as your legs strengthen you need less stability and cushioning meaning you can graduate from your big foam trainers that look like a melted coolbox, to a racing flat.

Well possibly, but one of the principles of minimal shoes is that you start off strengthening your feet and tendons in a way that’s supposedly more suited to our evolution. When I started running, I couldn’t run very far anyway so my feet were indeed tired, but so were the rest of my legs so it all worked out.

Re sprinting – I’ve always been a good sprinter but a bad distance runner. The reason I ended up thinking about gait had nothing to do with marketing – I was on a treadmill once, and I wondered what would happen if I started to run my 8m30 pace as if I were sprinting. It was instantly far easier – I believe I posted on here about it I was so excited to have discovered this.

So the point is what ‘comes naturally’ isn’t necessarily what’s best for you.

Get the shoe that suits you and the type of running you do. Its personal and takes time to find the correct one.

Mix some barefoot (on grass) with running in shoes. Be careful, listen to your body and if you calfs, achilles feet ache stop.

IMO the heel strike argument is a red herring. More important is where your foot lands in relation to your body. Watch top runners and some do heel strike/mid-foot but not with their legs extended.

FWIW, i run up to HM distance in flats. I like to have some protection but still be able to feel my feet in contact with the ground. I hate any excess cushioning – it feels weird to me. But marathon and above, there is no way I can cope without some more cushioning.

ASICS DS racer/trainer – for most running
ASICSs 2130 – or whatever latest number is for longer stuff
Slippy Salomons for trails

When I run a long way, it’s my groin and outside of thigh that get tired and sore eventually. My achilles and feet never give any trouble…

KINGTUT’s original post had nothing on topic and was a gratuitous insult, Trail-Rat. The edit added on-topic content. The original reason for posting was to insult. I think that’s worth pointing out.

Hurtmore adds another another shoes-to-suit-the-distance-and-speed post. Has any of the minimalist/barefoot protagonists managed to run a marathon minimalist/barefoot? I ran one in Mizuno race shoes with about a 15mm cushon and regretted it.

Maybe all that running in sofa shoes has made your feet weak and feeble Ed 🙂

Has any of the minimalist/barefoot protagonists managed to run a marathon minimalist/barefoot?

yep, last year, fell race too, including rocks, roads, tricky descents, the lot.

with little or no training in the preceeding year other than a weekly 5k potter with my girlfriend.

result: legs a bit knackered, feet fine (1 minor blister that caused no pain)

shoes worn: NB 101’s

5 years ago several doctors told me that i’d need bones removed from my feet if i even wanted to walk again (i didn’t listen to them, and opted for the non-surgical route to recovery – ie, not wearing shoes with arch support, or raised heels)

ED, Ive done My longest race at 35 miles of trail and road in xtallon 212’s. Also 3p twice in them.
Snowdon marathon in kinvaras twice, london in newtons.
In fact i started forefoot running just before doing the yorkshire off road marathon, my first marathon. So ive done all my longest races in barefoot style.
I use addidas adizero hagios for 10 mile and less. My toes grumble if i go further in them which is why i like to train in the kinvara.

Edukator – Member
KINGTUT’s original post had nothing on topic and was a gratuitous insult, Trail-Rat. The edit added on-topic content. The original reason for posting was to insult. I think that’s worth pointing out.

Good lord.

barefoot marathon winner >

We recently interviewed Ultra Marathoner and barefoot runner, Patrick Sweeney, who, in what may be the fastest marathon ever run in Vibram Five Fingers, recorded an awesome time of 2:37:14 winning the Palos Verdes Marathon. He ran in Vibram Five Fingers Sprints.

http://birthdayshoes.com/interview-with-patrick-sweeney-winner-of-the-palos-verdes-marathon

What shoes for being pwned?

OK so where does 2:37 rank him?

That is a pretty mediocre time and really proves nothing. Particulaly as his shoes probably differ not that much to the majority of the 000’s of men and women who are running considerably quicker.

Edit: I have skimmed a bit of the article which for me begs the question could he run faster if he wasnt so trendy?

We recently interviewed Ultra Marathoner and barefoot runner, Patrick Sweeney, who, in what may be the fastest marathon ever run in Vibram Five Fingers, recorded an awesome time of 2:37:14 winning the Palos Verdes Marathon. He ran in Vibram Five Fingers Sprints

Which is excellent for him, but irrelevant in giving advice to a beginner in what shoes to buy.

Yes, but it’s posted to answer Ed’s question about whether it’s possible to run a long way in minimal shoes. The guy in that article may or may not be a knob, but he’s reporting that his injuries have gone way down in minimal shoes, rather than up as Ed is suggesting would happen.

ah right, 😳

I dont think the link is aimed at the beginner but answering ED q regarding distance and forefoot. Fair play to the guy thats a decent run after 3 years. A time Most of us will never get to as amateur athletes. Not record breaking by any stretch.

I think the shoes you wear create the style not the speed or the distance and as a beginner I would have appreciated someone telling me there was another way before lacing up my huge heel trainers.

So I would suggest to a beginner to take the shoes off and run in a sports hall, run fast run slow. That how you naturally run. Now find a shoe that helps that style or stay completely barefoot if you feel the need.

Is it the same people that get hung up on shoe type/wheel size while the rest of us just get on with running/riding bikes and enjoying ourselves?

Yes, but it’s posted to answer Ed’s question about whether it’s possible to run a long way in minimal shoes. The guy in that article may or may not be a knob, but he’s reporting that his injuries have gone way down in minimal shoes, rather than up as Ed is suggesting would happen.

Hang on are we talking about “minimal shoes” or “barefoot running” you cant have it both ways. Minimal shoes have been around forever and I have raced longish distances in shoes you would probably call “minimal” so nothing new here.
Look at the top guys running sub 2:10 and they are running in “minimal” shoes in that they have a very low or zero lift between forefoot and rear. This seemed to be a criteria previously?
Also there is no way to be sure if his incidence of injuries has reduced as a result of running in these shoes given the very large number of variables involved. He (and the website) want it to be the case but thats not the same thing.
If I reduced my mileage to match yours I could probably run in Wellington boots and not get injured. Does that mean Wellington boots are better than the shoes I run 50+ miles in now?

On a related note my mates Dad saw both Ron Hill and Gordon Pirie many years ago all running in shoes I suspect you would call minimal so theres nothing new her. Difference is both trained like animals and didnt look for snake oil.

I agree with Surfer’s comment above.

Any of those finger things are snake oil through and through.

Well there’s low or zero heel, and there’s barefoot style, a slight difference. Barefoot style are intended to not support your foot and let it work as if you were running barefoot – from what I’ve seen, racing flats aren’t quite the same – the toe is much narrower than it is on my ‘barefoot style’ shoes.

Is it the same people that get hung up on shoe type/wheel size

No. I’ve got three 26″ mtbs from 6 years ago and I’m not changing them, I couldn’t give a crap if they are ‘out of date’. However, sorting out my gait helped me enjoy running, where I used to hate it. It’s far more fundamental for me than simply tweaking kit. If I hadn’t gone through this process I would not be running at all. It’s not snake oil either, any more than setting your saddle the right height is snake oil.

I think the shoes you wear create the style

Yes, this is part of the theory that says traditional shoes let you do it wrong, whereas barefoot shoes make you do it properly. You would injure yourself if you heel strike heavily in minimal shoes, but the point is they encourage you not to do it – as does running in no shoes at all.

Yes, this is part of the theory that says traditional shoes let you do it wrong, whereas barefoot shoes make you do it properly

What are these “traditional shoes” of which you speak? Pirie ran in traditional shoes and so did Zatopek. This is a straw man.
Also are you know introducing “barefoot style” into the vernacular?

Blatant c an p
Running Fast and Injury Free
In his book Running Fast and Injury Free[3] Gordon Pirie advocates running with stepping on toes (as opposed to the usual style of long steps with landing on heels), 3-5 steps per second to reduce fatigue, damage to feet, and wasting of energy on vertical movement of body. He also describes his collaboration with Adolf Dassler on designing running shoes with stronger toes (instead of the usual design with stronger heels) for better durability with his advocated running style.

Surfer i think your looking for an argument, you know the difference between What most are calling traditional shoes, which generally have a heel. Also how barefoot running emulates the style piere and other used which involved running in this barefoot style using minamalist or racing flat style shoes.. 🙂
Weather you take your shoes off altogether creates no real difference except i prefer not to get dirty cut feet so i wear shoes.

surfer – Member

What are these “traditional shoes” of which you speak?

the kind of shoe that you get pointed at in ‘traditional’ running shops if you ask for ‘running shoes’.

think: thick squishy soles – rising at the heel, arch support, etc.

they may stock shoes like a minimus, or even walshes, but you’ll have to ask for them specifially.

I thought Pirie’s shoes were basically plimpsoles (is that how you spell it?)

When I was at school a friend ran B’ham marathon in dunlop green flash and lived to tell the tale.

IMO, there is a lot of truth mixed with copious amounts of marketing BS in the whole area of shoes/minimalist/barefoot running. The one thing that isn’t BS is to fell what your body is telling you. In which shoes does that happen best?

To be honest I didnt mention Pirie for any other reason than he popped into my head he was possibly a little “odd” in terms of some of his ideas although a great athlete. Any distance runner of the day would be a good exmaple.

I am looking for an argument however you are wrong to say I know the difference. When these threads appear they tend to be the same advocates trying to reinvent the wheel. The same protaganists talk about “barefoot” running yet who really does it? Its all straw men and rubbish about “built up” shoes and “traditional” style etc when the truth is low profile or “minimalist” shoes are all around us and always have been.
It is a marketing gimmick and that 2:37 time really makes my point

do you want a hug?

It is a marketing gimmick and that 2:37 time really makes my point

That guy’s marathon time isn’t important, no-one’s saying minimal shoes make you faster. The fact that he became injury free after switching is much more significant, since reduced injuries is exactly what the theorists are saying.

And there IS a difference besides the heel. Have you ever used anything branded as minimal?

Have you ever used anything branded as minimal?

Nothing “branded” no 🙄

The fact that he became injury free after switching is much more significant, since reduced injuries is exactly what the theorists are saying.

That would be fine if it where true, see my previous posts. Is it possible to keep every other aspect of his training and lifestyle identical and simply change his shoes? Would he be on that website if he ran in the old “Borstal breakouts” we had as kids? I suspect not.

do you want a hug?

😕

Its important stuff running! you guys treat it as a bit of fun 😉

That guy’s marathon time isn’t important, no-one’s saying minimal shoes make you faster. The fact that he became injury free after switching is much more significant, since reduced injuries is exactly what the theorists are saying

It is important when in talking in a context of injuries and suggesting the shoes help reduce them.

Surfer, So am i right in thinking your issue is just with the terminology and marketing used? Forgive me but i think your possibly older than me so traditional shoes to you may be something different but to me its any shoe with an overly large heel like 90% of shoes in a running shop. I still think you know this but perhaps not.
i agree barefoot minimalist shoes are not new, just re branded same old racing flats that you raced in. Perhaps with some new fangled add ons to make them sound cool, but essentially a racing flat.
Anyway i need a new shoe for my next fell race, im thinking do i need a gnarlite fell shoe or an allmountain trail shoe.. decisions decisions..

It is a marketing gimmick and that 2:37 time really makes my point

To an extent I agree, its his technique that has improved. Had he run the same in a racing flats he probably would have knocked a few seconds off that time.

In terms of shoes, ones with 4mm ish thick sole are barefoot/minimal. A lot of racing flats or shoes branded as “natural” running shoes have more than that.

The fact that he became injury free after switching is much more significant

Barefoot shoes DON’T prevent injury.

Barefoot shoes DON’T prevent injury.

Exactly.

i’d be interested to see ‘shoes* forefoot’ on that chart…

(*something skimpy like a minimus)

Out of interest who runs barefoot heal?

Well you can’t unless you are very bloody minded and think pain is good.

Barefoot shoes DON’T prevent injury.

Obvioulsy not, but the theory is that they reduce certain injuries a lot, if you use them all the time and adapt. I’ve no idea of the stats.

Out of interest who runs barefoot heal?

probably 95% of the new runners picking up vibrams, minimus vivo etc, believing its the shoes that make the difference.

“Well you can’t “

You can – trust me , and it doesnt hurt.

what you cant do is slap your feet down.

footflaps – Member

Out of interest who runs barefoot heal?

A masochist?

Phil: Pretty useless chart really. It doesn’t have any information regarding injury rate which you seem to be equating to the loading rate.

One of the pro arguments for barefoot is that progressively more/better cushioning has not done anything over the years to reduce the frequency of injuries. Any shoe company worth their laces would have published any vaguely defensible study?

Better cushioning should have progressively reduced the loading rate and reduced injuries if we are to follow the ‘logic’ of your chart?

Matt