Spare a thought for those poor legal aid lawyers

Some of Cersei Blairs finest suffering.

I’m sorry dear STWers, posting a link to that awful capitalist instrument of mass financial knowledge, Here, the ‘truth’ from the Grauniad they won’t try and make you pay to read it.

You can be sure whatever get cuts for us, our asylum seeking and economic migrants friends will still be getting a first class service. Along with the Translator and of course the Guardian if they are sharp enough to claim they are children, (amazing how mature some of them appear at 14.)

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bigblackshed – Member
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Try that grauniad link..

You know that legal aid supports the people who need the legal representation, not the lawyers, don’t you?

You know that legal aid supports the people who need the legal representation, not the lawyers, don’t you?

oh yes, and we know that layers are most concerned with equality anf fair representation for all

Lawyers refuse to describe their action as a strike, pointing out that they will still carry out work for private clients

our asylum seeking and economic migrants friends will still be getting a first class service. Along with the Translator

Unfortunately, these people aren’t getting a good service even now. A friend who does court translation says that their rates have been cut so much that it’s not worthwhile going to court

Yeah, sure, Legal Aid lawyers all make insane money, whatever.

My wife used to be the secretary for a solicitor who did mostly legally-aided education law. He did stuff like making sure disabled kids got the support they needed to enable them to go to school, special needs got statemented properly, carers got to have a day or two of respite care every so often, evil, profiteering stuff like that. Their department consistently ran at a loss, Legal Aid didn’t usually cover the work that needed to be done, and most of the shortfall was bankrolled by the firm’s other, non-LA departments.

Fortunately that’s all history now – the government has effectively shut down the hugely profitable Legal Aid gravy train already, the solicitor is now a law lecturer, and if there’s any disabled kids needing help with their education, well **** ’em, right?

tyrionl1 you do understand that even before these cuts legal aid lawyers were expected to prepare for a hearing that could last all day, travel to the hearing, do the (all day hearing) then travel back all for the princely total of £46.50 – and often unpaid (because of the fee structure adopted by the Ministry of Justice many individual hearings were unpaid?)

Oh, and many are self-employed so that £46.50 for your whole day includes all your travel costs, business expenses, food, any staff you have to employ and other frivolous things like tax payments and a mortgage.

It’s why I gave up legal aid work.

My private clients are willing to pay a proper fee for my work. The Government (through legal aid) didn’t.

As mintimperial quite rightly notes – the end result is people left without legal advice or legal representation unless they’re prepared to pay for it on private client rates.

So let’s hope you’re never wrongly accused of a crime, eh?

Because the Government changed the regulations so you can’t get back money you pay as a private client to be defended by a non-legal aid lawyer, even if you’re found ‘not guilty’.

So yes – spare a thought for the legal aid lawyers. They provide a huge and valuable service that you would hope neither you nor anyone you care about ever has to rely on and they do it for much less than the Government’s PR and spin people/Daily Fail would whip you up into a frenzy for.

Yeah, sure, Legal Aid lawyers all make insane money, whatever.

My wife used to be the secretary for a solicitor who did mostly legally-aided education law. He did stuff like making sure disabled kids got the support they needed to enable them to go to school, special needs got statemented properly, carers got to have a day or two of respite care every so often, evil, profiteering stuff like that. Their department consistently ran at a loss, Legal Aid didn’t usually cover the work that needed to be done, and most of the shortfall was bankrolled by the firm’s other, non-LA departments.

Fortunately that’s all history now – the government has effectively shut down the hugely profitable Legal Aid gravy train already, the solicitor is now a law lecturer, and if there’s any disabled kids needing help with their education, well **** ’em, right?

Well said that man, couldn’t have put it better myself

There is a minority who automatically assume Lawyers/Solicitors earn huge amounts of money. This is far from the truth spare a thought the endless stress, hours of working from home, multiple case load……

What a number of thoroughly unpleasant posts, IHN, Mintimperial and Stimpy’s excepted.

Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good dose of your schadenfreude..

Legal Aid and LA lawyers are there to assist the underprivileged with serious issues such as the loss of liberty. Most legal aid lawyers I’ve met work extremely hard for substantially less than they could command in the public sector, work antisocial hours, and all to better the position of their fellow man.

I wouldn’t want to do their jobs on what they’re paid now, and even less so follow the proposed 9% fee cut.

Remember, thoses fees don’t go into the pocket of the lawyer – they go to their business to cover overheads etc. Many legal aid firms have given up or will give up because these fees simply cannot sustain a viable business.

tyrion1, you seem to be missing even a very basic understanding of the subject you’ve chosen to whinge about 🙂

You can be sure whatever get cuts for us, our asylum seeking and economic migrants friends will still be getting a first class service.

Shouldn’t you be over on the Daily Mail comments section?

slow clap for tyrion, your ignorance speaks volumes

My sister-in-law is a legal aid lawyer, doing the “get me a lawyer” police station work right through to court hearings. This is not glamorous and well-paid work guys; I think she gets the full-time equivalent of £25kish with no pension etc as she’s self-employed. She puts in loads of extra hours for no pay.

My impression is of someone over-worked, under-paid and yet competent and committed. Thanks to the post-2010 world, she is already gone to being self-employed (with all the benefits that entails…for someone else) and expected to cover a large geographic area.

Oh – and the firm she “works” for has just lost the local contract, meaning that she’ll be referred no more work from January. 🙁

tyrionl1 – see what Ben H says ^^^^ there? £25k full-time self-employed having spent years (and years) to qualify and train?

And by full-time I mean “being called out at Christ O’Clock in the morning to a police station” or “getting papers at 6pm the night before the hearing so you’ve got to stay up all night preparing”. Proper full-time.

And no pension, sick pay or holiday pay to boot.

That’s a real “gravy train” right there.

Some of Cersei Blairs finest suffering.

Michael? Mr Gove? Is that you posting?

I’ll echo comments like stimpy; LA solicitors work long hours for poor recompense – the recent changes make it tantamount to pro-bono work. $DEITY forbid you should need representation with that attitude.

So if my ignorance is so upsetting how about educating me more? Lets start with the Human rights legal industry and how that works? Bearing in mind all I asked you to do in the first place was spare a thought for the poor fellows.

I smell an Edinburgh defence…. Having said that after you called Ernie a champagne socialist you lost credibility…

So if my ignorance is so upsetting how about educating me more?

I think that ship has sailed.

When I read the op I managed to get soem spit in my eye.

bigblackshed – Member
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FT is one of the few new outlets I’ve found it worth registering a free account for. The number of stories they restrict free accounts to reading is enough for links found scattered around places like here, and the login is persistent.

Its not even the edinburgh defence, its just weasel words, claiming one thing but couching it carefully.
Much like someone saying tyrionl1 is a massive effen ****. Allegedly.

No one is upset by your ignorance not even you 😥
That last line is there to imply you meant genuine sympathy for them and we know that is a bare faced lie

The best I can do here is offer you either a spade to keep digging or advise you to shut up as any explanation of the “industry” will be met with a similar style playground reply

On the broader issues we have a serious issue as

1.the application/administration of the law is expensive
2. we really need to be able to access it

I have no solution but I do not sleep easily knowing a conservative goivt led by Gove is tasked with finding the solution

tyrionl1 – Member
So if my ignorance is so upsetting how about educating me more? Lets start with the Human rights legal industry and how that works? Bearing in mind all I asked you to do in the first place was spare a thought for the poor fellows.

How about in future educating yourself before posting ill-advised polemic?

So if my ignorance is so upsetting how about educating me more?

Unfortunately many in our society see ignorance as a blessing, given the rags they read.

Lets start with the Human rights legal industry and how that works?

As shown by this comment

There is a minority who automatically assume Lawyers/Solicitors earn huge amounts of money.

Yes they all live in some fantasy 1950’s era where the professions (outside of the City) are well paid.

just to be clear (if my posts ever are )
Background
last year government research showed criminal legal aid business ran on break even to 6% profit so the Government brought in 8% pay cut to be followed by 8% this year . there had previously been a 10% cut in crown court fees and a significant down turn in volumes. The Government aka Grayling could not articulate the saving required but it appeared to already have been achieved the Govt rejected Lawyers proposals to achieve what the Govt seemed to say they wanted. The govt promised further consultation before this years 8% came in.
This year the 8% is being imposed without the further consultation promised plus an additional 50% cut in some funding of preparation for the more time consuming and important crown court cases.
The strike
Basically we are declining to work under the terms of the new public funding rules .
So if you have a case that would be funded at the new rates ie starts from today we won’t do it .
If you had a case with legal aid before today we will carry on.
If you ask for the Duty solicitor at the police station or court he will do his job as duty solicitor for that transaction/hearing but will not apply for legal aid to carry the case on to its subsequent hearings.
Because we are simply declining to work under the financially crippling new regime if you can and will pay us privately we will represent you but be aware that this government took away your right to recover your reasonable fees in full if you are shown to be innocent in law.
Personal
I am generously paid at about £38 k pa after 6 years training and 25 years experience, I wear the fancy kit and do cases from police station through magistrates and crown court to court of appeal .

Well said crankboy- and good luck

I like this thread.

People who understand the situation, either from personal experience (or reading more than a tabloid headline) explaining why the changes are a bad thing.

The criminal justice system is fast becoming a vehicle for the rich to buy their way out of trouble whilst both the CPS and accused people on legal aid are increasingly being failed by ill thought out cuts.

Even the Home Office have admitted they had no idea what effect the cuts woudl have before they were introduced.

rich to buy their way out of trouble whilst both the CPS and accused people on legal aid are increasingly being failed by ill thought out cuts.

And the people who aren’t rich but don’t qualify for legal aid effectively have no legal access unless they bankrupt themselves.

And the people who aren’t rich but don’t qualify for legal aid effectively have no legal access unless they bankrupt themselves.

indeed.

It’s amazing that this thread has some actual real information on rates and salaries allowing people to make their own judgments. Something missing from all the main stream media. From what has been said on here I can see that legal aid solicitors have a very legitimate point.

It’s amazing that this thread has some actual real information on rates and salaries allowing people to make their own judgments. Something missing from all the main stream media. From what has been said on here I can see that legal aid solicitors have a very legitimate point.

Yep.

I think the whole idea is to make sure legal aid doesn’t pay, so they (the Tories) can then phase it out. It’s all part of motivating the poor to find a job die quicker.

“tyrionl1” is blatantly a new login from some ol’ troll.

” think the whole idea is to make sure legal aid doesn’t pay, so they (the Tories) can then phase it out. It’s all part of motivating the poor to find a job die quicker. “

Personally I think the whole thing is ideological/political not economic Grayling who was at the helm for the first round did not understand the difference between turn over and profit (genuinely no hyperbole it had to be explained to him in an “engagement” meeting) they also did not know what they meant by the savings ie on budget or predicted spend , they said we need to save from the budget we pointed out the predicted spend was already that amount less than the budget they then shifted to wanting to cut from the predicted spend.

Despite the propaganda from the Ministry of Justice Britain does not have the most expensive Justice System, far from it we have a comparatively high legal aid spend but that is a feature of how we do our law and leads to the system being significantly cheaper in other areas and cheaper over all.

Lots of the reforms envisage alternative service suppliers Eddie Stobart , The COOP and G4s have all been mooted.
Individual Independent lawyers fight for the individual even when publically funded will a state appointed monolithic company fight for the individual or fight to keep it’s contract.

To give more perspective to the point crankboy is making, THIS is a list of all the main City firms and what they pay their junior lawyers.

Bear in mind, these firms will act for businesses in relation to commercial matters, rather than private individuals.

Almost every single law student fresh out of university will earn more by working at a commercial city firm than someone working on legal aid matters with 25 years experience, and will earn double that once they actually qualify.

We will end up with a situation where not only are existing lawyers working on legal aid funder matters leaving, but there will be no new lawyers to replace them.

I had my heart set on criminal law from about 14 years old, until I found myself under the weight of law school debt and then the commercial world seemed like a much more sensible option. Actually, it became the only option.

peterfile – Member
To give more perspective to the point crankboy is making, THIS is a list of all the main City firms and what they pay their junior lawyers.

At the risk of quibbling with anotherwise sound post, it’s an average across salary bandings based on responses to salary surveys, so probably not hugely accurate.

I would say the number of people drawing those salaries would be relatively small – of the 130,000ish people with practicing certificates, I’d be surprised if it was greater than 10 – 15%.

Anyone outside London doing general commercial work gets a relatively decent wage but it’s by no means the riches of Croesius. Partners (at least those that own part of the business) do well, but then if you’d spent the last 15 years locked in a darkened room without seeing your family you’d rather expect to!

I have heard of LA lawyers in “the provinces” (as we’re quaintly called) earning barely above minimum wage.

Far better to direct any leftist ire at the big four accountants – now, where’s my pitchfork… 😉

for all the lawyers on this thread, Legal aid and a bloody good lawyer kept me out of jail on a number of occasions 15 odd years ago ago and at the time in question the legal aid system was stripped to the bone so i can only imagine how unrewarding (financially not morally) it is to practice now.

My lawyer closed his practice 5 years ago as it was not financially viable to continue.

I didn’t realise how dire it was, but if it’s as described above, then they’ve got my support.

Crankboy I’m behind you all the way. I got out of legally aided work many years ago – it couldn’t pay my mortgage and out food on the table so I jumped, but plenty in my Chambers (and a number of my friends too) still work in areas funded by legal aid.

To all the non-lawyers showing support – it is really appreciated by those who are taking a stand against outrageous, unjustified and untested cuts which effectively render legal aid work wholly pointless.