"Some very impressive engineering to get the cassette down to £115."

I’ve already debunked that one – an hg41 isn’t pinned together in anything like the same way as this (each sprocket works by itself, pins are non-structural). XT is a fair comparison.

*pulls pin from hand grenade*

It’s really not expensive. You can spend more on a pair of tyres, or pedals, or bars, or (rigid) seat posts.

*tosses and retreats*

Looks more like SLX to me. If it comes in at well under a hundred quid, doesn’t fall apart like most SRAM stuff and works with 11 speed xt, I might be interested in a few years.

Losing the front mech allows wider pivot positioning, giving better stiffness, improved pivot bearing wear and better mud clearance. Plus in real life, hard use in a race (where products are tested and developed), only having one shifter is one less thing to think about in that split second where you need a big gear change.

Weight saving and increased ground clearance is a bonus too.

That’s why losing the front mech is a big deal.

The setup is the least of the issues.

They add weight.

Add complexity.

More stuff on handlebars.

Chain drop / can’t use NW chainrings.

Expensive to replace chainrings.

Dangerous (big ring).

Clog with mud / hard to clean.

98% of the time unneeded, even with a 9 speed 11-32.

Ugly as sin.

There is a lot to be said for simplicity IMHO, and the front mech is the 1st thing in the firing line.

Jeez. Been riding with 3 up front for 20 odd years and didn’t realise I was being held back so much.

Mind I’m still pissed they held back on a 9 speed clutch rear mech to try and squeeze us up to 10speed. No doubt they will find some similar trick to get everyone onto 11 at some point.

I’ll just hang at the back on yesterdays technology, what I never had I won’t miss.

Nico Lau, the EWS beast runs a front mech, but then he doesn’t have to maintain his bike and probably doesn’t clean his own bike either.

Hateful things front mechs.

Losing the front mech allows wider pivot positioning, giving better stiffness, improved pivot bearing wear and better mud clearance. Plus in real life, hard use in a race (where products are tested and developed), only having one shifter is one less thing to think about in that split second where you need a big gear change.

Weight saving and increased ground clearance is a bonus too.

That’s why losing the front mech is a big deal.

The setup is the least of the issues.

They add weight.

Add complexity.

More stuff on handlebars.

Chain drop / can’t use NW chainrings.

Expensive to replace chainrings.

Dangerous (big ring).

Clog with mud / hard to clean.

98% of the time unneeded, even with a 9 speed 11-32.

Ugly as sin.

What a load of old shit.

If you want to spend loads on the top gear to drop a few grams then fine, it’s the usual MTB rule of diminishing returns but to spend more on a heavier system with less range is Sram laughing at the fashion victims. It will be lapped up.

If you can’t set up and maintain a front mech then it’s time to give up. The demonisation of them to justify fashion is hilarious.

I mentioned earlier – it means you can use a smaller chainring so giving a lower bottom gear. It’s all about the gear range on the cassette, not the absolute values.

Of course it depends where you ride – IME I rarely use the granny ring on a triple at trail centres, so if that’s the sort of thing you do then no need for low bottom gears. Round here I’d do quite a bit of walking (or avoid some routes) if my bottom gear was 30/36.

mcnik – Member
…There is a lot to be said for simplicity IMHO, and the front mech is the 1st thing in the firing line.

Jolly good sentiment, and the next logical step is to get rid of that tangled mess at the rear too.

Not much better than a simple clean straight chainline. Add singlespeed cog or hubgear to taste, and stir well. 🙂

peakyblinder – Member
Jeez. Been riding with 3 up front for 20 odd years and didn’t realise I was being held back so much.
Mind I’m still pissed they held back on a 9 speed clutch rear mech to try and squeeze us up to 10speed. No doubt they will find some similar trick to get everyone onto 11 at some point.

How is not having a clutch holding you back?

I love both my 1x setups but would prefer the extra range on offer. Yes it’s new and yes it costs more. But anyone claiming world gawn maaad when you can pick up an XT cassette for 30quid is pushing it a little.

I have to say I am a little surprised SRAM punted their “cheap” 11 speed kit out in XD flavour only. Making it HG FH compatible with a cheaper 11th small sprocket, could have helped them stitch up the OEM market further letting bike builders spec any hub they fancied, this group still ties you to XD. They may yet bring out an HG version I reckon, less range, lower price don’t reckon they’re finished yet.

Shimano need to get a rustle on with their XT-SLX range of 11 speed groupsets.

It’s always the people who are still running 9 speed and have never tried 11 speed who say it is terrible and overpriced marketing trick…

PS the point about Nico Lau using a double set up is moot because it is Di2 so just one shifter and the front mech sorts it self out

PS the point about Nico Lau using a double set up is moot because it is Di2 so just one shifter and the front mech sorts it self out

He is only just running it. Before he was on the prehistoric two shifter setup.

It’s always the people who are still running 9 speed and have never tried 11 speed who say it is terrible and overpriced marketing trick

Well it’s not a “trick” there will of course be some functional benefits to having one extra, bigger sprocket at the top and a smaller one at the bottom of the cassette, but let’s not over-sell these things, and let’s not pretend that stamped and pinned steel sprockets are some exceptional new technology, it’s minor refinement of the same basic manufacturing technology used to make most cassettes for the last 40 odd years innit… £115 list price is a piss take, but it will come down rapidly.

I’m still on a 9 speed triple and have never tried 11 speed 😉

scotroutes – Member

I’m still struggling to work out what’s so bad about a front mech that folk actually struggle to set one up.

I bloomin hate it to be fair. It’s the bit where you tighten up the bolt and it moves. You can hear the mech laughing.

For me, the benefit’s been mostly about chain security- narrow/wide with no chain device at all has been a lot more reliable than dual ring with a chain device (and on the very rare occasions it’s fallen off, it can’t jam). And better mud manners is good too.

But mostly, I just feel like it takes away things I didn’t need. Nothing wrong with wanting a wider range of gears but I was really surprised how little difference it makes.

But I’m still on 1×10, I was thinking my next setup would be 1×11 but the expander rings are so cheap now, probably not.

I’ve already debunked that one

STFU
You’ve debunked nothing.

individual sprockets don’t even need to be pinned/riveted.

it all turns to a grey skein of aluminium oxide anyway.

sram stuff seems to do it quicker.

Thanks for that thought provoking contribution

individual sprockets don’t even need to be pinned/riveted.

I think that was what I said by the pins in a HG41 being non-structural wasn’t it? As opposed to this SRAM one which is totally different.

it was sound advice. as your next piece of waffle proved. 😉

I waiting for some good pics of people’s home made much cheaper 10-42 cassette.

Yes, ‘impressive engineering’ 😉

How is not having a clutch holding you back?

It isn’t. I’m implying I’m not really being held back at all by anything other than my legs and lungs.

But it would be nice to get a clutched rear mech without having to change everything else (or bodge it). I’m sure when they have enough people on 11 speed they will bring out some great new tech but only for 11 speed, forcing an upgrade again.

Doesn’t bother me what other people spend on their bikes though. And if I were racing I’d probably want any advantage I could get.

But it would be nice to get a clutched rear mech without having to change everything else (or bodge it). I’m sure when they have enough people on 11 speed they will bring out some great new tech but only for 11 speed, forcing an upgrade again.

So to get this straight you don’t feel forced to upgrade, but you think that you might be based on stuff that hasn’t forced you to upgrade. Hope I’m clear on that, those bastards in the bike industry have a lot to answer for.

Clutch mech is a genuinely worthwhile upgrade, though- better chain retention, much less noise. Same with bigger cassettes- things that could have been rolled down to 9 speed, but never will be, because SRAM and Shimano want you to replace your entire drivetrain. (and likewise 11-42 cassettes for 10-speed)

Easy mate.

If you think 1x is fashion, that is your prerogative. I think my list gives some good reasons. Of course 3x or 2x is not unridable, and 1x is not going to suddenly make you better. It just comes down to personal preference.

I am sticking on 10 speed at the moment, as I agree that the current prices for 11x are quite steep, 10 speed offers good VFM ATM.

BTW, all this same howling and complaining happened when they invented the derailleur, then they went from 5 speed to6, from 6 speed to 7, from 7 to 8, from… you get the point.

mcnik – Member
…BTW, all this same howling and complaining happened when they invented the derailleur, then they went from 5 speed to6, from 6 speed to 7, from 7 to 8, from… you get the point.

Actually it started when some degenerate invented the freewheel, so 1890s…. 🙂

I have decided today I want 1×11, not for the bling, not for the kudos, or the fact that it will make be faster, simply for the following

I am sick of convincing myself if I shift up or down on the front, I am going to find the ratio I need to counter my unfitness.

With 1×11 I will simply know, I am unfit and need to ride harder.

I’d buy a 9spd clutch rear mech.

And also a 10spd 11-40t cassette.

Not for the same bike though!

They’d sell loads of both… but would then sell less of all the other stuff…

So to get this straight you don’t feel forced to upgrade, but you think that you might be based on stuff that hasn’t forced you to upgrade. Hope I’m clear on that, those bastards in the bike industry have a lot to answer for.

No, he’s saying that if a genuine advancement is made for one drivetrain component, then you’ll have to replace everything to be able to use it, as that has been the pattern for decades now. He used clutch rear mechs as a recent example.

Nothing wrong with that. They are businesses after all. Can’t imagine there’s a lot of money in backwards comparability.

Either upgrade to newer systems or don’t – I don’t care which. But stop expecting companies to put the desires of a few who want latest tech at old tech prices and compatibilities above pushing forward.

No-one has a gun to your head.

GX will probably come in at £250 for mech, shifter and cassette on the direct sites before long. That’s a bloody bargain.

I’d rather have an industry that innovates and develops desirable products that then trickle down than get bogged down into making cheaper and cheaper parts for spendthrift owners stuck in a timewarp.

Since going 90% roAdie much of this stuff passes me by, it is quite nice not to have a continual stream of potential engineering improvements instead havein legs that ache but a wallet thats intact.

“Pushing forward” and “compatibility” are sometimes mutually exclusive for good reason… but when that is artificial, people are rightly annoyed.

And it’s not just about being “spendthrift”, I have 11spd XTR on my main bike, but as I said, I’d love a 9spd clutch rear mech, and would buy one in a heartbeat, even for a premium. A 1×9 system would have real world advantages well beyond money… it would shift more consistently on a full suss bike with awkward cable routing for a start, and would be less fussy for winter downhill runs.

andyrm – Member
…GX will probably come in at £250 for mech, shifter and cassette on the direct sites before long. That’s a bloody bargain…

If we’re still talking about “impressive” engineering, that money will set you up with an Alfine 8 with lots of change, you don’t pay the annual cassette tax, and your chains will last much longer too.

Just imagine if Shimano made a lightweight XT version – the current Alfines are commuter hubs slightly better sealed, so not directly comparable to the higher group sets.

Quirrel – Member
…I am sick of convincing myself if I shift up or down on the front, I am going to find the ratio I need to counter my unfitness.

I have found the same when I use gears instead of singlespeed. I think it’s just that we cyclists have a habit of cycling as hard as we can, so even using an easy ratio, we still rag ourselves out on a climb. You may be fitter than you think. 🙂

An Alfine 8 which weighs loads, and is less efficient than a chain drive system, whilst having a narrower range and bigger jumps than the SRAM cassette folk are frothing about…? Where do I sign up!?

A hub gear is the perfect solution for mechanically inept non-racers who don’t ride up proper hills.

Which, coincidentally, seems cover most of those currently enamoured by 1*.
🙂

If Shimano painted it orange, renamed it BastidGlide, only made it compatable with sky blue frames and tripled the price, it would be much more popular.

Only if they made it work like a 1×11, weight the same, stop putting the weight in the back wheel and the rest would they stand a chance.

I race XC and enduro when I can, I ride up proper hills, I’m mechanically able and I can see the benefits but I probably don’t fit into your tight socio-economic definition of what mountain bikers can be unless you have given up on that idea.

Has the big bad SRAM monster come round and threatened you with a stick to upgrade yet?

I have nothing against 1*.
No good for me, but if you’re happy with the compromises, fine.

I race XC and enduro when I can, I ride up proper hills

So my comments don’t apply to you.

I probably don’t fit into your tight socio-economic definition of what mountain bikers can be

I don’t have one – be what you like.

Just don’t get annoyed when I point out that your willingness to buy overpriced toss has a negative outcome for others.

http://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-slx-2-x-10-transmission-groupset-75067.html £210
http://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-deore-m610-triple-transmission-groupset-70201.html £160

What is the detrimental effect? I reckon these groupsets are a great price if you want basic stuff that works at a good price. Not sure how an 11sp group can make this stuff more expensive or not available.

Can you explain why it’s overpriced toss anyway?