So – Who really WAS/IS clean?

I haven’t seen any evidence that Jens Voigt doped, and I sincerely want to believe that he didn’t.

Although it’s possibly debatable whether simply being Jens Voigt, and therefore a superhuman, constitutes some kind of cheating.

Clean or caught?

George and Lance werent caught but cheated.

IMO he’s the best climber in the world by miles

I’d say one of the top 3 but whether he’s the best by miles, we’ll see next year.

I haven’t seen any evidence that Jens Voigt doped

Given his background in East German sport I’d hope he avoided the doping just when the wall came down. I’ve been a bit surprised by his “Lets just forget the past” interviews when asked about doping though, seems a bit odd from a man a lot of people look up to.

Daft question. All you are doing is repeating the list of riders that are usually cited as clean. Who knows? Only the riders themselves know.

Slightly OT but what are peoples thoughts on the suggested drugs amnesty? Tell is what you did and we’ll either give you a token ban (6 months from October perhaps) or maybe even forget it all if you’re honest.

Contador at the Vuelta didn’t look too doped to me-masses of accelerations but he rarely put the sort of distance into people that he was doing 09/10.

Bassons was banned the other day for missing an in competition dope control. He was riding the french marathon MTB champs and pulled out before the end. He went home, and two and a half hours later was selected for a random test!

I was a huge fan of Hincapie’s… now, disappointed.

There was a guy who I thought was a hard worker, selflessly giving to his leader (no matter who that was in whichever team), who was talented enough to have been a serious contender at Paris-Roubaix, who was a quiet guy, not in-yer-face… just a great shame.

Spoils your heroes, doesn’t it?

A mate reframed this whole nasty episode for me the other day when I commented what a sad time for cycling this is. H replied….

“This is a time for celebration. Without eliminating drugs from the sport there’s no way a British cyclist like Brad Wiggins, who is undoubtedly clean, would have won the Tour de France”.

2013 TDF results and averages will be an interesting thing to watch develop.

A mon Avis, ne person.

As with the whole LA saga, history suggest that we start with the sad, negative conclusion and hope to be surprised by any exceptions that may come along. Reading TH’s description of how the dopers broke down any attacks in TdF mountain stages meant that I found it hard to watch Froome and Wiggo do exactly the same this year without a nagging doubt in my mind. And that is why the sport is STILL in a sorry mess. Bit IMO cycling is far from unique in is respect. Pro sport is riddled and as Jambalaya noted it is infiltrating the amateur ranks more that we would like to imagine.

Paul Kimmage singles out Boardman in his book Rough Ride as one of the only pros he though was clean at the time, it stuck in my mind at the time as it went against the tone of the rest of the book.

LeMond does have that very high VO2max, something like 92 I think compared to Armstrong’s mind 80’s. I reckon he’s clean (at least from the blood products.) Just look at what happened to his relative performance towards the end of his career when those products became widely used.

What about the likes of Hinault? I’ve not read much about him in relation to PEDs. I don’t really have any sporting heroes but I would like to think he did what he did clean-ish. No mention on dopeology.

A mate reframed this whole nasty episode for me the other day when I commented what a sad time for cycling this is. H replied….

“This is a time for celebration. Without eliminating drugs from the sport there’s no way a British cyclist like Brad Wiggins, who is undoubtedly clean, would have won the Tour de France”.

Why is Wiggins “undoubtedly” clean?

Are the women clean ? If they are, maybe the sponsors will stay with them and we’ll get some more on the TV. The women’s olympic race was way more exciting then the men’s.

Why would I hope it’s cleaner ? Much less money involved, and this stuff costs.

Seriously, that statement about Wiggins and Sky definitely being clean…. it really sums up the whole problem for me, and shows that cycling once again risks getting itself a free pass.

They might be clean. But I just don’t understand how anyone can say they’re “undoubtedly” clean. Why are they undoubtedly clean? Because they say so?

Me. I’m clean. That’s as far as my faith in cycling now takes me! 🙁

Well I would say most of the unknown of the peloton. Young water carrier, people dropping at the end after 4-5 days. Friend of mine got kicked out of a professional team for not following the team medical protocol. And guess what he never get to win a TdF.
Basically you could ride the TdF, specially if you’re a professionnal rider, with all the assistance and in a peloton. However you’ll pace ride it. If you were to race ride it, you’ll burned after 4 days.

Are the women clean ?.

No, well certainly not all, Jeannie Longo. However the women have other issues as well, bullimea and the like seems quite common from the reports i have read.

Slightly OT but what are peoples thoughts on the suggested drugs amnesty? Tell is what you did and we’ll either give you a token ban (6 months from October perhaps) or maybe even forget it all if you’re honest.

It happened, but i don’t think a witch hunt will achieve much, be better off accepting it, finding where the real problems were, wwho were the key players and sort that part. Who drove the doping, who were the doctors, the DS’s, what did the race organisers and UCI know, sort that part rather than scapegoating domestiques.

Before the rest day, Contador couldn’t put time into Rodriguez, the day after he goes on solo break and puts time into everyone. And you think he’s clean? No, just made sure the blood bag wasn’t tainted this time.

Contador and Valverde are both dopers, is Rodriguez clean? How about Froome?

“Since Tommy Simpson’s death in 1967, 86% of Tour de France winners have been tarnished or implicated by doping.”
Source

Before the rest day, Contador couldn’t put time into Rodriguez, the day after he goes on solo break and puts time into everyone. And you think he’s clean? No, just made sure the blood bag wasn’t tainted this time

My thoughts exactly Contador and Valerde performance after the rest day was seriously suspect imo. I think even Wiggins murmured something about it.

What about Sean Yates? He seems to have been in the right teams (either riding, driving or as the boss), at the right times with the wrong people. Has he made any public comment yet?

Yes, he has. In a nutshell, it was “I’m just paid to drive the car, guv. I didn’t see nuffink”

Thought I say Menchovs name on an article linking him with something.

Cadel is currently denying anything funny happended when he went for a char with Ferrari.

And I get the impression Indurain retired gracefully and is a nice man so they didn’t poke too much into his activities.

Does make you wonder…

I hope Wiggins and Froome are clean, but sadly, as even Froome pointed out in an interview the other day, Sky are very reminiscent of USPS/Discovery/Berry Floor under Armstrong: Same training camp locations, links with ex doping doctors, ex dopers on the team, riders such as Wiggins/Froome coming from absolutely nowhere in terms of GC capabilities to suddenly finishing on the podium (Wiggins went from 123rd to 4th in the TDF, Froome from 84th to 2nd), the complete dominance of the whole team, where rival GC contenders were being dropped by Sky’s domestiques.

People talk about the new clean era of cycling, and assume everything has changed post-Armstrong, but to me this is a similar situation to what was said just after the Festina scandal, and we all know how that turned out over the next decade. Riders will still continue to dope.

I’d love to think they were/are clean, but the way Sky dominated this year’s tour was almost too good to be true. And in road cycling, too good to be true usually means doping. I hope I’m wrong though.

IMO cycling will never be clean as the potential benefits from doping are too great.

Pro racing, maybe/probably. Which is why I see people like Mike Hall, John Stamstad and the top TDR or Idita racers as real endurance racing legends. No prize money there, just your own will to do it and judgement comes from your peers. Caffiene can only help for so long. There may well be dopers doing events like that but take away the £ and there’s far less will to cheat. Why go through all that if you’re just kidding yourself?

Edit to answer OP ) Lemond, Wiggins, Boardman, there’s a few who I really don’t believe dope/d but only they can say 100%. Sometimes you have to give people the benefit of any doubt, until things look suspicious etc.
Lemond, he got ?8 minutes on Fignon with those bars? A win for tech there. 8 mins may be the same as good dope, when clever use of tech could make results that variable he didn’t need dope?

David Moncoutie is widely regarded as clean

+1

So if they are all clean how come you hear comments about their blood hematocrit being just on the limit of the suspect 50%

I am right in thinking most of us normal Joes have a much lower level yet all these pro’s mysteriously have a high level. They can’t all sleep in tents every night surely.

Why not just draw blood from every entrant to the big races on the morning of the race, and publish the levels, you soon see the mystery changes in a rider, or is that how the blood passport is supposed to work.

8 seconds.

Well from 50-ish seconds back to an 8 second lead. And Fignon admitted doping later (not clear if he was actually doping in that TdF).

Assume they are all dirty until proven otherwise, sadly the best mindset to have

Me? Im clean and can hit a golf ball 300+ yards

Menchov has been linked with doping throughout his time at Rabobank, 2005-2010. Like others have said, Moncoutie is one that a lot of people refer to as “the clean one” but after the revelations regarding Zabriske and Hincapie, I wouldnt be surprised if there are rumours arising now about a fair few people racinga round that time or of the “right age”, Sandy Casar, O’Grady etc. Lemond I doubt was clean, even Fignon dabbles according to his book.

I would say that the Brits were/are clean bar Millar. Boardman and Obree came from a track background which I understand has always been better regulated comapred to the road. Also the need to dope in Track cycling is removed given the distance of the races is 10km max. In “put me back on my bike” Barry Hoban says that they all knew it was going on on the continent and that Simpson was hugely invovled in it but it juts wasnt a British thing and PEDs didnt feature at any level of British racing from club to international.

I have no doubt that Wiggo, Cav et al are clean.

Reading TH’s description of how the dopers broke down any attacks in TdF mountain stages meant that I found it hard to watch Froome and Wiggo do exactly the same this year without a nagging doubt in my mind. And that is why the sport is STILL in a sorry mess. Bit IMO cycling is far from unique in is respect. Pro sport is riddled and as Jambalaya noted it is infiltrating the amateur ranks more that we would like to imagine

This pretty much
I think we have to recall it has always been there as apart of cycling – doping and cheating

It is s ad reality

I have little faith that any are clean
I think Cuddles is
I hope Wiggins is and have no reason to doubt it- he was rated as 5 by the authorities though for the TdF with 1-10 where `1 was nothing and 10 was found guilty so his blodd did raise suspicions
I suspect 50% still cheat but this time with smaller/micro amounts

What i worry about is whther it will veer be eliminated

I think lemond as clean for the simple reason if there was the absolute tiniest speck of doubt or rumour Armstrong would have demolished him with it – LA once threatened LeMond with ‘Ill find 10 people to confirm you took epo… as much as I didn’t like LeMond I think he rode clean..

bassons and Evans too…

IMO cycling will always have doping – essentially it’s a sport where those who can ride at the fastest speed for the longest time gain fame, glory and money.

With doping having such a significant effect on athletic ability, it’ll always be around – the drugs/methods will change, but the sport won’t.

robert-millar- the-bare-minimum
confirmed by Robert Millar
50% is just unnatural

Interesting reading!

Sorry my error on Lemond’s time advantage. It’s one of those things that makes me think he could win clean tho, that there was another advantage he could use.

Millar’s article linked to above is a pretty damning comment of it all.

Houns – Member
Me? Im clean and can hit a golf ball 300+ yards

I heard it was “suck a golf ball through 300 yeards of garden hose”?

a track background which I understand has always been better regulated comapred to the road. Also the need to dope in Track cycling is removed given the distance of the races is 10km max

Wishful thinking, I’m afraid. Ben Johnson (and a long list of other track sprinters) seemed to think it was worth doping for a 10 second event. I would expect exactly the same advantages for track sprint cyclists.

For longer, aerobic events, doping with EPO or blood transfusion is not about long term stamina; it’s about increasing your maximum sustainable power output, so plenty of advantage for endurance track events like a 4k pursuit. The US track cycling team famously blood doped at the 1984 LA Olympics.

Robert Millar? Another convicted doper, so I’m sure he had an accurate view from inside.