So what do you think would improve safety for cyclists?

All this will cost a lot of money to implement nationwide and won’t be popular with the public as cyclists are seen as minority.

True – I think the secret is to focus attention on “liveable streets“.

That is, make the public see that reclaiming streets from the car and giving them back to people is a good thing – turning streets back into inhabitable, pleasant places to be where people can go about safely to work, shop and play.

This.. one for every man, woman and child on the planet.

🙄

I am equally shocked by the Daily Mail thing! What the heck!?

1. Increase driver knowledge about driving safely around cyclists – make it part of the test, and ensure that drivers are aware of the implications of driving too close, overtaking in the wrong places, etc etc
2. Change driver’s attitudes – the ‘cyclist hating’ attitude has to change, it’s appalling. Along with the attitudes around ‘don’t pay car tax’, ‘shouldn’t be on the road’, ‘slowing me down’, etc
3. Improving cyclists knowledge of how to cycle safely – especially new cyclists. Most common issues include riding in the gutter, not making clear hand signals, lack of awareness of the traffic around them etc
4. Introduction of new infrastructure for cycling where necessary – ie segregated routes at dangerous junctions, alongside dual carriage ways. But remember to give cyclists priority at junctions (it’s easier to stop and start in a car than it is on a bike!)
5. Increased use of high viz kit (on bike or person) especially at dawn / dusk / night
6. The somewhat controversial helmet! If nothing else, helps to protect against minor injuries.

None of the above, just change the law to be the same as our continental cousins – “any accident with a pedestrian/cyclist/motorcyclist is deemed to be the fault of the large vehicle unless proved otherwise”. End of.

a nuclear war’s electromagnetic pulse would render cars built after 1980 or so inoperable.
DI2/campagnolo/mektronic users might have problems as well.

that’s about as likely as a shift away from the cash cow that is automobiles.

i am shocked. I agree with something published by the Daily Mail

Now i’m in some kind of liberal tail spin.

I’m also deeply confused.

Does this mean I have to start hating “the ethnics” and shouting about benefit cheats?

GrahamS, I think you are misunderstanding my comments. You are actually a good example of my point. Simply because you don’t want to ride in heavy traffic doesn’t mean you don’t have to cycle – therefore I would contest safety is not truly the barrier it is being presented as (even if that is how people are responding to surveys – its far easier to say its unsafe than I’m too lazy) – the reality is weather and laziness/fitness are bigger barriers for most of the population.

My point is simply making everything perfectly safe isn’t the solution for adoption. However there is a widely recognised view that wider adoption would make life safer for all – so we should be looking at possible ways to increase participation (with the result of also improving safety) rather than improving safety with the hope of increasing participation.

As for helping uptake:
Certainly provision at work to let people ditch a layer of clothes and put on another is vital when it’s hot or wet.

Have to accept that motorists don’t drive because they hate the planet and want to kill cyclists, but because they have to. It’s easy to cycle in when mum, dad, and 2.4 kids have home, two jobs, and 2.4 schools all within cycling distance of each other; otherwise someone has to drive sometime. Increasing the cost just makes people poorer.

Park and cycle, as well as park and ride. Does that exist? My SO is “cheekily” using a park and ride as park and cycle. I think this could be the biggest idea, cars on the A roads, (motor)bikes in the town.

(Public transport is hopeless, if I was to use the bus I could get to work 50 mins early or 10 mins late – and my hours are the standard 9->5. And as for crossing town for an evening class, I had to simultaneously overlay 3 maps and 3 timetables from the bus company’s website on “mental acetate” to figure out how and even then I can’t get home afterwards.)

TuckerUK: trouble is, the pedestrian fatality rate is roughly the same as cycling, so treating cyclists like pedestrians may not be the answer.

Interesting, and fair point. I think I’ll like to see those figures broken down regarding where the majority of fault lay. I’m going to hazard a guess that a far higher percentage of the pedestrian casualties were ‘self-inflicted’ (for want of a better phrase) than for the cyclists.

As I wrote earlier, I ride 20 miles each way to work. Its not that hard, or dangerous, but is sometimes wet – it is Britain after all. I don’t imagine that many of you would have a completely urban commute of similar length? Driving is a no-no (unless I’d like to spend twice the time commuting that I currently do), and anyway I’ve never developed a culture of driving to work, actually the last time I drove was to drive back from the Dragon Ride, thinking about it I think the tank is still just off full from filling up 2 miles away on the way home the next day.
Why are so many of you guys so scared of cycling on the road? I really just can’t understand why you make so many excuses not to get on your bikes as much as possible.

the amount of cyclists that display a lack of any sort of road awareness is shocking

This is very true.I drive almost every day in London and the amount of cyclists that put themselves in danger is unbelievable. As a cyclist you must assume that drivers are a danger and it seems to me that a large number of riders just don’t care. The one that really gets my goat is when two riders pass you one each side of the car, the amount of times I’ve gone to move out slightly to make space for the rider on the pavement side and nearly knocked the other into oncoming traffic is ridiculous.

With such tight roads I’m not sure what can be done other than increase awareness and put cycle lanes where they can fit. Ride safe…

Completely impossible and I guess unrealistic but it be nice if drivers had to cycle so far every year to keep their licences then maybe they might have a bit more respect and see how vulnerable cyclist can be.

the amount of cyclists that display a lack of any sort of road awareness is shocking

I’m thinking a test… that’s it, a test to test the proficiency of cyclists… that might work.

Park and cycle exists in York. Parking at the park and ride sites is free if you continue your journey by bus, foot or bike. I actually checked last time I parked there (not a regular York commuter but took my bike over one day).

I hate to admit it given that I’m mainly a roadie, but in towns my favoured solution is off road segregated cycle paths – not pavement ones but the type that cuts across parks, along canal towpaths, disused railway lines and so on. There is space away from the road network that doesn’t involve squeezing everyone into the same space. For me urban cycling is about safety not speed (or strava ;)). I’ll happily ride a bit slower and deal with pedestrians if it means greenery and trees rather than traffic fumes and left hooks.

I am a convert to Belgium. And the Daily Mail*

I used to be much more ‘cyclists need to be super aware, use the correct equipment and be responsible’ etc… then I spent a week cycling in Belgium and it was just so nice.

The rules are that bikes have priority everywhere in urban areas and if anyone comes to grief it’s the car drivers’ fault, end of. Hardly anyone wears a helmet. So many people cycle. It’s not a lifestyle choice or province of the fit or keen, it’s just something most people do, like walking. Which has got to be a good thing.**

*ok, just this once, it’s a great article
** car on car on motorways Belgians seem hell bent on annihilation but that’s another story

Young kids should be forced to grow up falling out of trees, crashing brakeless home made go-carts down huge hills, get into fights, smashing their knees and bashing their elbows and falling off bikes at every opportunity. get it out the way young then you’ll know the score when you’re older rather than wobbling about fearfully with zero confidence and thinking you’re made out of glass 😉 I blame computer games 😛

The right to bear arms*.

* as in

NOT

GrahamS, I think you are misunderstanding my comments. You are actually a good example of my point. Simply because you don’t want to ride in heavy traffic doesn’t mean you don’t have to cycle – therefore I would contest safety is not truly the barrier it is being presented as

Yes, but only because I am lucky enough to have a good quality traffic-free route running 11 miles from my house to within half a mile of my work. Most people are not that lucky, they don’t have that choice, and hence don’t cycle.

(and then of course there are those that say I’m “thoughtless” for using it 😯 )

Why are so many of you guys so scared of cycling on the road?

Fear of injury or death? The risk is undeniably there – however small you think it may be.
Per mile you are over FORTY times more likely to be killed or seriously injured on a bike than in a car*

Absolutely no way I’d cycle on the major A-roads into Newcastle during rush hour.

* (2010 figures: Car KSI Rate 40, Cyclist KSI Rate 889, rates are per billion miles)

For me urban cycling is about safety not speed (or strava ;)). I’ll happily ride a bit slower and deal with pedestrians if it means greenery and trees rather than traffic fumes and left hooks.

Absolutely. I get to see rabbits, pheasants, cormorants, and heron on my route. I get fresh air, countryside and river views. I see children out playing, get cheery “Good mornings” from people, and I even have the option of stopping for a quick pint on the way home. Why would I want to ride on the road again?

I struggle with long sentences but here’s my tuppence-worth

I wear a helmet
I wear fleuro when commuting
I have 6 lights when it’s dark/low light (4 on bike, 2 on helmet)
I don’t wear headphones
I don’t run red lights
I don’t ride on the pavement
I ride primary position as recommended
I filter on the right rather than the left (most times)

But I’m still routinely beeped at, cut up, squeezed.

I don’t buy the ‘cyclists have to behave properly first and then we can get car drivers to do the same’ argument. I do ride properly but I’m still close to getting injured every time I ride… so riding properly is NOT keeping me 100% safe.
Car drivers have a tonne of metal killing machine under their control and loads of protection. I do not.

There’s plenty of appalling and poor cycling going on. But blaming the bad cyclists for car driver’s bullying will instigate no change IMO.

Car drivers (me included) have been sold the dream of personal freedom. So many people believed it that it’s not living up to the promise. They see cyclists riding freely through the city and along the roads and are resentful.

When I drive i find it a pain to have to slow up and give a cyclist room. But I understand that’s my responsibility as a driver and so I do. Many people choose otherwise but let’s be clear, it’s a choice that drivers consciously make, nothing else…

It’s simple prejudice and envy. Punish bad behaviour. End of

Im all for compulsory cycle training. Lets make it part of our driving test with say a retest every 10 years. Rather than being a driving test , make it a roaduser test and include practical cycling training in all aspects of driving training. including hgv and psv licence training. To be truly bike aware you need to have experience as a cyclist on our roads.

Stiffer sentences for death by dangerous driving. Look at the sentences passed to the rioters in comparison with someone who kills another roaduser whilst distracted etc.

6 weeks driving ban if caught using a hand held mobile whilst driving.

Better cycle lanes and infrastucture

Better consideration to all road users from both vehicles and bikes.

A national tv campaign , pass slow and wide like you do with horses.

maybe as part of the driving licence you should have to road cycle for 12 months prior to getting your license. The DVLA issues you with a bike n kit for 12 months, gives you routes to learn highway code n stuff and monitors/tracks your cycling. A lot of the skills you need for driving on the road are the same as the ones for cycling on the road. You have to show that you can cycle within the law and highway code for a set period before taking driving lessons. Then when you do pass your driving test you will have all the empathy with cyclists you’ll ever need and be a good cyclist to boot! As a consequence of these new laws some people will find that the 12 month compulsory cycling period was ace and they just got into cycling instead and didn’t bother with the car 😀

Remove all the visual cues that give road-users a sense of entitlement. e.g. That kerb is raised, you’re a pedestrian, off my road!
If the right of way is not clear everyone takes more care and slows down.

Strict liability for the more dangerous user in a collision. Lorry hits car, lorry to blame unless that driver can prove the car driver was in the wrong.

You kill a fellow citizen on the road with your vehicle, you are not safe to use that class of vehicle in your lifetime. Complete revocation of your licence, with hard time for ignoring the ban.

More traffic policemen on the roads in town. Uphold the small stuff,amber gambling encroaching into the cycle lane and excessive/inappropriate speed.

Might sound dull and not much to argue about but education is the answer! (IMO of course)
The car driver has a deadly weapon and must be educated on how to overtake cyclists safely.

I would happily join a campaign for better education of drivers when it comes to overtaking a cyclist. (I truly believe this is the beginning of any change)
If any of you have seen the way drivers treat a horse and compare that to how they treat a cyclist you will understand that education is the key. I do not need to ride a horse to understand my responsibility when overtaking one because of LONG TERM education.

this is turning into a cyclist Vs driver thing as usual, it’s pretty much down to peoples/everybodies empathy and thought about another persons welfare isn’t it? Hopefully this little upsurge in cycling will allow road users to think about each other more as there are more non motorists on the road on a **** bike. That is *our next stage of road use evolution! I don’t think government policy is ever going to make people altruistic though, it has to be an individual thing. Mostly it has to be a shift in perception of bikes/cycling.

*everybody

I suspect a great deal more respect and care would be given to cyclists by motor vehical drivers if they were forced to leave the car at home and commute by cycle themselves for a week. It would give them a better cyclists perspective. Trouble is I cant think of a way of getting people to do it, other than perhaps encouraging insurance companies to give people who have been on a weeks road cycling course a discount on their car insurance for being less likely to kill one?

Theres a good argument to say all cyclist should try driving a car too, but thats completely impractical.

Australian Road Safety Stats
Rospa Stats for UK
Cyclist Casualties, 2011
Killed 107
Seriously Injured 3,085
Slightly Injured 16,023
Total 19,215

Population difference is a big thing but also provision is better here with more cycle routes in cities and respected cycle lanes than I have seen in UK cities. Also mandatory helmet wearing rears it’s head. As with most things after its been introduced most comply and wear one. People don’t seem deterred as you keep a lid with your bike.

There is a good report Here that I downloaded. Have a read.
Some of the contributory factors for younger cyclists include lack of understanding of conditions/abilities and excessive risk taking same as young drivers. Not read all of it yet but looks like a good starting point and possible an end to some of the BS in these threads.

Not worth saying twice

Perhaps controversially, maybe more education for cyclists instead of automatically blaming drivers?

Agreed.

Be humble, no matter how right you are you will come off worse.

Cycle lanes? Not sure I’m in favor of them at all. That is the ones that are shoe horned into narrow roads.
Specific lanes in addition to the road are great.

I’ve just posted a new thread to illustrate the kind of nice, traffic-free, pleasant cycle paths that I was suggesting help to attract new cyclists.
Take a look – it may illuminate the discussion a little.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/in-praise-of-sustrans-and-traffic-free-cycle-paths-photos

Good piece on safety

You kill a fellow citizen on the road with your vehicle, you are not safe to use that class of vehicle in your lifetime.

Sorry but if a person jumps out right in front of a moving vehicle and dies they are to blame, not the driver/rider.

Obviously this is often different on pedestrian crossings.

Some of the councils in London (possibly elsewhere as well, but I’ve only seen it in London) will take a rubbish truck or similar along to the cycle event, so people can sit in the cab and see the blind spots for themselves – it’s a bit more effective than the video, because you realise where all the blind spots are (including in front of the truck!) rather than just on the LHS.

An artic would obviously be even better, or a couple of trucks, one going straight on and one starting to turn left, but most of the events are pretty small and don’t have the space.

They also get people to put bikes on the ground around the truck to mark where they think it’s safe to stop before getting into the cab, which can be quite sobering…

Piece about including cycling in the driving test on Teh Grauniad bike blog today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2012/aug/06/cycling-lessons-driving-licence

Good to see it getting discussed in the mainstream.

I agree that there does need to be a raising of awareness on all sides, but the elephant in the room is that no matter what we do, things will not change until people are dragged away from the lazy mindset that car ownership is a right rather than a privilege. we need to reconfigure our towns and cities to accomodate cycling, even if it comes at the expense of motor vehicle mobility. whist the oil and car manufaturing lobbies remain powerful, this will not change.

I’d suggest a system of petrol rationing; you have a certain allowance, and are penalised for going over that amount. Could encourage people to buy smaller engined cars, and make less unnecessary journeys. Maybe perks for using less than a certain amount. Concessions of course to those needing a vehicle to help with disabilities, for community transport etc.

And how about an ‘Oyster Card’ system for parking? No ‘free’ parking in public areas, and higher charges in more congested areas. Parking meters replaced by card readers. Temporary cards for visitors and short-term use. No free car parks at shopping centres/superstores etc.

Ban parking for anyone but residents/business owners within a certain radius of schools. Make parents walk their children to school, or at least get a bit of exercise!

i think we need to reward people who use public transport and bikes a lot better. Make cycling be seen as the ‘right’ thing to do, not just a trendy quirk.

petrol rationing?that’s what the war was for.
the incentive is and always will be on spending.
Look at the consequences when the cash flow slows down a bit.
look at the automobile lobbies against mass transport in the us.

and finally look at this film,ripley scott’s first.it’s good.
but asides from that,look at the streets.
that’s what will make cycling safe.

though I don’t think that’s even a remote possibility.
unless you move somewhere pretty remote.even then,you don’t really help the problem,because you’ll need a car.

Population difference is a big thing but also provision is better here with more cycle routes in cities and respected cycle lanes than I have seen in UK cities. Also mandatory helmet wearing rears it’s head. As with most things after its been introduced most comply and wear one. People don’t seem deterred as you keep a lid with your bike.

Australia cyclist fatalities averaged 35 over 2010 and 2011.

UK cyclist fatals average 2010 and 2011 109

So Australia 0.64 per million pop.

UK 0.57 per million pop.

So Australia with it’s helmet law has more fatalities per head than the UK. Whatever the answer is it isn’t helmets.

So Australia 0.64 per million pop.
UK 0.57 per million pop.

Not a fair comparison.

How many of that population are cycling in each country, how often and what kind of distances?

In Australia after helmet compulsion rates of riding decreased dramatically, rates of head injuries did not fall per cyclist per mile in any significant way. the best estimate is 50+ extra deaths due to increased diseases of inactivity. Helmet compulsion costs lives.

The answer is a change of attitude – mainly amongst law enforcement and a move to the assumed liabilty that is commonplace across europe

Helmet compulsion costs lives.

I don’t really think you can make such a claim based on such scant information.

I’d like to see your working though, like in a maths exam.

There is plenty of reasearch done on this and its the same result in every country that has had helmet comuplsion. participation in cycling falls dramatically, no reduction in head injuries and the reduction in exercise done leds to an increase in early deaths. In the UK its estimated 200 a year extra deaths across the population evey year if helmets were made compulsory.

Using the World Health Organisation’s HEAT (Health Economic Assessment Tool) methodology40,
CTC estimates that a UK-wide law would result in 263 extra deaths annually due to increased
physical inactivity, and that the net public health cost would be £304-415m, even based on the UK
Department for Transport study’s estimate of helmet effectiveness (n.b. CTC does not accept this
estimate).

All data published in peer reviewed journals. summaries here.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/Cycle-helmets-%28the-evidence%29_brf.pdf

http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/Cycle-helmets_brf.pdf