[Closed] So the British Government

lets see what documentation gets published prior to the holyrood debate next wednesday.

Then we [i]might[/i] see who's being cheeky.

the Act of Union has been dissolved?!

No, wake up and pay attention Slapper ...... we now have "devolution" which involves "devolved" power.

HTH

So there is regional Assembly Governments with limited real powers, yet here we have Von Brun and Herr Mandelson not making any comment on a decision made supposedly by Scotland - so that's it then, the Act of Union has been dissolved?! Notwithstanding that Mandy met with Gadaffi Duck's son on several occasions recently prior to the release of the cheese collector?!!

Being bit of a drama queen wouldn't you say?

Total lack of understanding shown by the OP as to the constitutional settlement and he lost the argument before it started by references to the PM as a nazi. godwins law.

FWIW the scottish parliament ( not a regional assembly but a national parliament) has clearly defined devolved powers. These include the legal system in its entirety which Westminster cannot interfere with.

I'd love to know what all those bars are for!
[img] [/img]

Mandleson dining with Gaddafi Jr on Corfu as well....whole thing stinks.

Hands up who thinks there hasnt been a deal and Scotland acted solely in this one?

IMO major deals going on with Brown/Blair interference.

Yep, i think that this one is SNPs own mess.

they missed the chance of finding a halfway house of something like secure house arrest under medical care IN scotland, and perhaps accomodation for a few members of his family.

I cant belive that MacAskill couldnt find some leeway in the "Scottish Justice system" (whichever arcane hole of it applies) to keep him on Scottish soil to keep the Yanks happy and prevent the frankly predictable behaviour of the Libiyans in Tripoli.

Even if he pushed the legal limits, Megrahni would be dead before an appeal or finding could have been handed down.

Tandem - I guess the exception proves the rule?

Apologies - I was comparing Scotland to the Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies who have limited powers and who can not be allowed to make such a stupendous arse of themselves!

I think ernie this will really test devolution. Oh, btw where does Scotland get it's funding from?

No deal whatsoever IMO. I think Mandy wanted one hence the reciprocal arrangements he sorted out for prisoner transfers - but he forgot its not a UK parliament decision but a Holyrood one.

Do you really think the SNP would do anything to help Labour? When labour have been totally unco operative with them - stopping the removal of council tax by legalistic machinations over the councils grantt, etc etc.

So there is regional Assembly Governments with limited real powers

Actually there aren't. They are being replaced by associations of local councils.

On the wider issue, presuambly all those you think it is a terrible conspiracy between govt and business will be boycotting any company who does business with Libya? No more buying petrol from BP, for example.

Oh, btw where does Scotland get it's funding from?

Here we go....!

Is it too early for a beer? I think not. Nothing Scotchish, though, I'm afraid!

Scotlands funding - - self funding infact supports England as all the figures show. An independent Scotland would be richer and England impoverished

Sorry CFH - I shouldn't have bitten

It just so happens all these 'English' politicians are meeting the Libiyans and then the release goes ahead. Come on.

I'd love to know what all those bars are for!

And I want to know why Gaddafi is still a colonel ? Surely it would be polite to make him general ? Can't he pull any strings ffs ?

.

sv - are you suggesting that the SNP are New Labour's poodle ?

Isn't the difficulty that, while Holyrood has clear constitutional responsibility for Scottish legal/justice matters, this could be realistically characterized as "foreign affairs", an area in which Holyrood does not have any power.

I may be wrong, but if memory serves the Scots got him because Libya wouldn't hand him over to the Americans in the first place, and it was negotiated between the British government and Libya.

TandemJeremy - Member
Scotlands funding - - self funding infact supports England as all the figures show. An independent Scotland would be richer and England impoverished

I'm not going to redo the argument its been had before on this forum, but that is utter tosh, and entirely selective, selecting the revenue to include in and the costs to leave out, as you well know TJ.

it was negotiated between the British government and Libya.

IIRC, the 'deal' was that he would be tried under Scottish law.

G - sorry old chap - its the truth - total moneys spent v total revenue - scotland is a net contributor to the UK budget. Its westminster who have fiddled the figures

That's right. But as the decision to release on compassionate grounds involves an exercise of executive discretion and has clear "foreign affairs" ramifications I'm a little sceptical that no-one in Scotland ran it past someone in Whitehall.

Mandleson...

Hmm wonder what he really is dealing on the table.

TJ, take it elsewhere, there's a potentially interesting discussion going on. 😉

there's a potentially interesting discussion going on

can we only talk about one thing at a time ?

I really doubt any deal was done - either implicit or explicit.

The SNP will use anything to get advantage over labour and will not co operate over things like this - remember the furore when the prisoner exchange treaty between Libya and Uk was done? The Scottish Govenrmnet pointed out that the relearse of Megrahi was a decision for the Scottish justice minister only.

London Labour have been so antagonistic to the SNP government and so obstructive that I just can't see them doing what London Labour want at all.

Not a chance that the SNP " ran it past someone in whitehall" - totally against their philosophy to do so. Self determination for the people of Scotland remember?

BD - quite right - its been done to death. I just cannot let it lie when someone claims I know that what I am saying is wrong when infact I am sure it is right

I'm a little sceptical that no-one in Scotland ran it past someone in Whitehall.

They did :

[i]" MacAskill was in contact with the foreign office minister Ivan Lewis over the prisoner transfer agreement. London was also given early notice of MacAskill's decision. This was to allow Downing Street and the foreign office to advise the Libyan authorities on how to handle the return of Megrahi."[/i]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/24/megrahi-release-questions

Megrahi's release by all accounts, was standard procedure under Scottish law ie : prisoners expected to live no more than 3 months, are released to die at home [i]whatever their crimes were[/i]

I'd love to know what all those bars are for!

Probably the same as Prince Charles's.

Probably the same as Prince Charles's.

Surely not ?

Charles's medals include : the Queen's Coronation medal, Queen's Silver Jubilee medal, Queen's Golden Jubilee medal, Canadian forces decoration, and the NZ commemorative medal. I can't imagine Colonel Gaddafi having any of those 😕

I must say it wasn't until I researched the subject, that I realised just how brave Prince Charles is 😯

fortunately, GG, none of those medals require bravery as part of their criteria. Phew.

Im surprised your research didnt manage to unearth that 🙂

The SNP maybe think they have the power but lets face it in the overall scheme of things they are but a small player. The overall scheme being 200-300 dead innocent PamAm/Locerbie residents vs gas/oil supply relationship with Libya, America/Britain relations (ok so some are shouting about the release). Brown/Blair/Mandy shady dealing, dinners etc. Iraq/Afganistan wars over gas/oil.

Is it too obvious Whitehall have had a hand in this? You are going to say there are WMD out there In Iraq next!!!

sv

Sense at last. Whilst SNP play at being a self-supporting State-let the truth is they have given succour to international terrorism and further questions the Union.

Blair, Mandelson, Brown and Salmond are phoney

Stoner - Member

Yep, i think that this one is SNPs own mess.

they missed the chance of finding a halfway house of something like secure house arrest under medical care IN scotland, and perhaps accomodation for a few members of his family.

MacAskill informed us that , on information supplied by the Police Authorties, a total of 48 police would be required to look after Megrahi in some sort of private house. To what benefit exactly?

I fail to see any "mess".

G - sorry old chap - its the truth - total moneys spent v total revenue - scotland is a net contributor to the UK budget

And when the oil runs out?

How come you're up there milking the affluent scots then, TJ? Surely you're costing the country you seem to care for a lot more by being there than over the border...

zokes - Member

G - sorry old chap - its the truth - total moneys spent v total revenue - scotland is a net contributor to the UK budget

And when the oil runs out?

Never fear. We'll still be here to meet your energy demands.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland ][i]"The production of renewable energy in Scotland is an issue that has come to the fore in technical, economic, and political terms during the opening years of the 21st century.[1] The natural resource base for renewables is extraordinary by European, and even global standards. In addition to an existing installed capacity[a] of 1.3 Gigawatts (GW) of hydro-electric schemes, Scotland has an estimated potential of 36.5 GW of wind and 7.5 GW of tidal power, 25% of the estimated total capacity for the European Union and up to 14 GW of wave power potential, 10% of EU capacity.[2][3] The renewable electricity generating capacity may be 60 GW or more, considerably greater than the existing capacity from all Scottish fuel sources of 10.3 GW.[2][4]"[/i]
[/url]

And just wait until the UK-wide water grid is installed....

Never fear. We'll still be here to meet your energy demands.

And we'll still be here to pay for your unemployment benefit, healthcare and deep fried chewits.

And don't forget the banking sector..

IanMunro - Member
And don't forget the banking sector..

Ah yes, we'll pay to bail out your banks as well. Thanks for that.

TandemJeremy - Member
G - sorry old chap - its the truth - total moneys spent v total revenue - scotland is a net contributor to the UK budget. Its westminster who have fiddled the figures

Like I said selective stats, basically choosing which bits to add in and which to leave out. Wish I could balance my books like that. Not that it matters of course, as it is merely tilting at windmills, as obviously it'll never get tested in reality.

Deep fried Chewits = PMSL for some considerable time. 😆

Oh I love how some people treat wikipedia like it's gospel. The proposed Severn barrage would generate an estimated 7 GW alone. Your total 7.5 GW tidal power doesn't look so great now.

Frankly I couldn't care less. Let the scots be independent - it'll be one less source of whining, and you can take Broon back with you.

I was being conservative...

[i]"Professor Stephen Salter of Edinburgh University says he believes the (Pentland) Firth could produce as much as 10-20 gigawatts (GW) of electricity"[/i]

...and most of the whinging on here seems to come from south of the border. In fact, I can't recall the last time I read an anti-English post on STW (other than the TJ backlash)

Is that enough to power a DeLorean?

...and most of the whinging on here seems to come from south of the border.

You clearly have very selective reading, then.

I invite you to provide evidence....

South of the border Druid - defo not! This is not a Jock bashing thread, it's more to do with the state of the Union, which frankly isn't great!

Captain you've just mentioned the car of my dreams - built in Northern Ireland.

tankslapper, if a DeLorean is the car of your dreams, you need help! Dreadful things. Utterly dreadful.

There's one in Machynlleth though, which I always find amusing!

druidh - Member

I invite you to provide evidence....

Yup - evidence. The whinging ain't coming from up here.

If you think the union is in a sate now then wait a couple of years. Tories in Westminster = independence for Scotland in a decade. SNP are on course to get a majority next time and Cameron knows his best chance of keeping labour out is to get rid of their 50 scots MPs

Amazingly, there's one of those awful Lincoln Stationwagon things (Beige/brown and about the size of a football pitch) in Blaenau Ffestiniog. I have no idea how it got there as the roads clearly aren't wide enough for it to fit!

I invite you to provide evidence....

Have a look for yourself, it won't take you long...

South of the border.... North of the Border.... face it people we're all one homogenous steaming pile of humanity, like it or not. Well except for the tankslappers of this world, and thats because they run all newcomers off.... In fact thinking about it I'm surprised they've not all mutated over there what with all the interbreeding and all.

Where did you say you are from G? Norfolk?

I rest my case m'laud....

zokes - Member

...and most of the whinging on here seems to come from south of the border.

You clearly have very selective reading, then.

druidh - Member

I invite you to provide evidence....

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[img] [/img]

I think this could be labeled as a series of unfortunate events. The UK has been sniffing around Libya and its energy reserves for a few years now, as being on the end of a very long Russian pipeline is not ideal. Some may say that all the pictures of various members of the Government being seen with the Libyan leadership is evidence that a deal was done, possibly, but when you consider that virtually every other country would do the same and a fair few have already, then its nothing more than cheap political points scoring. What would the opposition party in this country do if it was in the same position?

I honestly don't believe that Whitehall had a say in the release, as its the SNP we are talking about.

If you think the union is in a sate now then wait a couple of years. Tories in Westminster = independence for Scotland in a decade.

I don't think so. This is a two fingered salute by the SNP to those south of the border and further afield demonstrating how independent they are, leading to a complete lack of diplomacy, I think will actually backfire for the SNP come the next election as an awful lot of Scots see this as an embarrassment.

They were a protest vote anyway.

el bent - the SNP vote was largely not a protest vote. Most scots seem to think it a good move anyway from what I can see.

I think it is a genuine compassionate move and nothing to do with sticking two fingers up to those down south - although an opportunity t do so is always welcome in the SNP house.

I very much doubt it will backfire on them and I think you can be farily sure that the next Holyrood parliament will have an SNP majority

As far as Scotland being supported by England goes, I reckon it's BS, but like many Scots I would be happy to live on less to be rid of the carbuncle on our southern border 🙂

Let's face it, the UK is an irrelevance now. It was doomed from the moment we entered WW1. The Irish know it, the Welsh know it, and the Scots know it.

Once the English grasp it and become independent, each country of the ex UK will get an appropriate government instead of trying to be a major player on the world stage with the associated defence etc costs. We can all prosper then.

Like it or like it not we are all far better of as one mass than a bunch of independent nations. Populations in everywhere else outside England do not lend themselves to being self supporting (as unfortunate as that may be) North Sea Oil and Water that SNP seem to be forever bleating about are frankly red herrings

Doing anything to get rid of the carbuncle that is England is all fine and dandy if you all want to paint half your faces blue and live in mud and stone huts. As EEC cash goes forever east its going to be increasingly difficult for Scotland and remote Scottish communities in the Highlands and Islands to tap into extra resources. A good example of this is the Republic of Ireland who have enjoyed years as the Celtic Tiger. Now forgive me the exact amounts but pumping £xbillion a week into any economy will make it look pretty decent. The problem now is that since Ireland is increasingly having to stand on it's own two feet the Celtic Tiger looks pretty tame.

Scottish Independence shored up by the Act of Union is a better solution. Very hard to be independent on bread and water.

Let's face it, the UK is an irrelevance now. It was doomed from the moment we entered WW1

Well in 5 years time it will have been a 100 years since the start of WW1 ....... not so bad for a 'doomed' entity then.

[i]Once the English grasp it and become independent, each country of the ex UK will get an appropriate government instead of trying to be a major player on the world stage with the associated defence etc costs. We can all prosper then.[/i]

Even the Welsh?

No Ian - thanks to climate change the Welsh are rubbing there hands as their high quality Ministers are now saying it will boost the tourist trade in Rhyl!

So that's Wales as the tourist destination of the U.K. Sunshine in Bleanau Ffestiniog and as many sheep as you could ever want

Utopia with wool and Wellingtons!! 😆

Tankslapper. So Denmark, Norway, and similar European countries are not viable entities? How about Iceland or Finland?

All countries of similar sizes to Scotland and with similar geographical positions. all independent and flourishing.

Isn't Iceland bankrupt?

The argument for scotland being a net contributor or reciever depends on what you count as scottish money.

If you asusmed a devolved Scotland would inherit the rights to all the North Sea Oil then yes, its rich. If you assume its British and just comes ashore in Scotland then the flow of cash is very much one way form England to Scotland. So if devolution happened tomorow and Scotland go the sole rights to the oil, it would have about 20 years of free university, better schools, NHS etc before it became completely and uttery bancrupt.

Thanks thisisnotaspoon - more reasons.

That Scotland could stand on its own two feet with North Sea Oil for a little while is not in doubt what is in doubt is its ability t sustain this. Scottish independence is a fine and noble notion but its a notion nonetheless.

United we stand divided we fall - U.K. O.K. in my book

(Case dismissed due to lack of evidence from MacBeth)

Iceland has struggled in the credit crunch for sure. However it is still a viable independent country as is Norway,

The oil is clearly Scotlands in international law. Most of the gas is Englands.

I still hear no reason why an independent Scotland could is not viable as an independent country when there are many small counties on the periphery of Europe that manage quite well.

If you asusmed a devolved Scotland would inherit the rights to all the North Sea Oil

So if devolution happened tomorow and Scotland go the sole rights to the oil, it would have about 20 years of free university, better schools, NHS etc before it became completely and uttery bancrupt.

Without proper financial planning and management of those resources to build up the economy in other area, yes. That's common problem for all governments though and was an issue for the UK as a whole in the '70s and '80s when the revenue from North Sea oil was used to prop up the country whilst other industries were built up and supported.

Isn't there an agreement in place somewhere that grants the oil to Scotland and the Gas to England in the event of a dissolution of the Union?

"[i]So Denmark, Norway, and similar European countries are not viable entities? How about Iceland or Finland?

All countries of similar sizes to Scotland and with similar geographical positions. all independent and [b]flourishing[/b].
[/i]"

"[i]Isn't Iceland bankrupt? [/i]"

Excellent !.

TJ, you are sooooo full of sh1t, the things you post just go to show that you believe the rest of us are so stupid, you can convince us that what you selectively post is correct.

Do you realise just how insulting your posts are ?.

Step back from the keyboard and go back to stroking your framed picture of Gordon.

CC.

i bet the buckfast tonic wine import deficit figures are not included in tj's figures

the uk will grant scotland its independence, the day the last drop of oil is squeezed from the north sea

and quite frankly there isnt very much left

which is why we are 'regime changing' or sucking up to nasty countries with lots of oil

Captain crash = pot kettle black.

I rarely resort to personal insults unlike the frankly ignorant and offensive posting you like to indulge in.

Iceland is not bankrupt. Its as well if not better off than the UK. Although like the UK has had serious problems with the credit crunch It has flourished as a tiny independent country for decades with a higher standard of living than the UK and higher lifespan.

I still hear no reason why an independent Scotland could is not viable as an independent country when there are many small counties on the periphery of Europe that manage quite well.

No reason at all, but whether things would move for the better or to the worse is a much broader point. In respect of the viability of incomes and so forth, the SNP argument is based on taking in pretty much all revenues that may apply, regardless of whether they will in fact, and choosing which shares of mutally incurred debts and other ongoing obligations that they will take into account.

Personally, the sooner we get past all this nationalistic jingosim the better IMHO. While the rest of the world is globalising we're going the other way. Brilliant strategy and obviously we are right and everyone else is wrong?

What next? Independance for Millwall?

give it up you lot, you sound like a family arguing over nothing.

mt

What sort of family is that? The Jackson 5?

So you're calling Scotland 'nothing'!!!!!

You think this lot are bad?
http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=131714/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html

While the rest of the world is globalising we're going the other way. Brilliant strategy and obviously we are right and everyone else is wrong?

What does "globalising" even mean in this context? That countries are merging together?? Is it even a word?

An independent Scotland would still be part of the EU and so would not be "isolated" (even though that hasn't harmed Norway) - which seems to be a good route for smaller countries.....

It's amazing the amount of casual anti-Scottish sentiment that's appeared over the past few years and the ill-informed, patronising nonsense from some posters on this thread is the perfect illustration. It's a real reverse from when I was growing up when it was the other way. There seems to be a real insecurity appearing amongst a section of English people that used to be the preserve of the Scottish and Welsh IMO.

Mr Slapper - reading the childish remark you have made confirms my view that you do not understand the country you live in if, all you can do is squabble over petty issues. "oh thats mine cos i bought it, thats yous coz your poor. or i'm better than you because......." whatever.

Did I mention a particular country of the UK?

What does "globalising" even mean in this context

What it means, is that whilst the rest of the world is opening up to the concept that there is stuff that goes on beyond their national borders, that "we" seem to be doing the opposite and becoming more insular instead. For example, the next thing that will crop up is Celtic language, which clearly is something of huge significance to the average modern Scot, given that the vast majority have done absolutely sod all about learning it, or for that matter campaigning for it to be taught in schools. So much like the Welsh, off we'll go into a nationalistic binge to reinvigorate what is essentially a dead language, instead of doing the sensible thing of equipping our nation for the global challenges that lie before it, where learning something like Spanish, French, Russian, Latin, German, Mandarin Chinese, in fact just about anything other than Celtic would be vastly more beneficial.

Incidentally, I would be entitled to dual nationality, as indeed would the vast majority of the inhabitants of both countries.

mt

You omitted that I frankly don't care. As a citizen of a small sheep producing nation on the edge of Europe it really doesn't seem to matter if I have an opinion on the subject or not. Hence the flippant remark!

Lighten up - it's only a forum 😉

[url= http://www.boycottscotland.co.uk/ ]http://www.boycottscotland.co.uk/[/url]

What sort of family is that? The Jackson 5?

Isn't that the Jackson 4?

I think it is a genuine compassionate move

G - a couple of points you miss. Reinvigorating gaelic is a very low priority in Scotland - unlike in wales welsh is spoke widely.

One of the arguments for a independent Scotland is independence within europe - this is at least in part because Scotland wants to be more involved in the EU - not semidetached in the little englander way. Its at least in part about strengthening Scotlands ties with Europe.

Many other European states are undergoing similar devolution / independence debates. Myself I look forward to a more integrated and devolved EU. Devolve power down where possible and pool where needed. This actually virtually does away with the need for the larger national governments. If the EU looks after macro economic policy and defense and all else is devolved to a regional / small nation level the westmisnster becomes irrelevant.

Other european states looking at splitting or devolving. Belgium - seems a split into two is inevitable. Netherlands has a splittist movement ( but rather weak) it is 6 provinces after all. Italy - many would like to split north and south. Germany - Bavaria is virtually a county in a confederation anyway and wouldn't mind independence. Then there is the basque country. I think in 50 yrs there will be a federal settlement in Europe with about 60 smaller states pooling resources where needed and taking their own decisions where they can. I look forward to it.

Scottish independence is not about being insular and inward looking. Its about looking outward with confidence and making its own way in the wider world without the help and handicaps of being the small ignored partner in the UK