So how would you improve Critical Mass?

mikeconnor – Member
And on that note, I think there’s sadly no point in continuing this discussion,

Dammit. I was taking that as a promise.

Many other people who have been on CM rides have similarly campaigned for better provision, through their membership of the CTC, LCC, Sustrans and other organisations.

See? Their effective, productive campaigning wasn’t anything to do with CM. Long may that continue, especially as the likes of Sustrans, LCC and the CTC are making a real positive difference for all cyclists.

It is clear from even a cursory glance at this forum, that there are entrenched regulars who spend night and day on here, and any deviation from their particular view is met with hostility and resentment

and yet you still keep coming back for more

Admit it… go on…. you, like TOTALLY heart us, don’t you?

Group hug?

So at 4 mins when the Police man asks everyone to stop blocking the road……why no consider the point is made and move on.

Mike, you asked for advice on how it could be improved, you have received some ideas, some sensible, other less so, this happens in life, don’t take it to seriously.

The reason you have riled people here is that you seem to have shot down every idea that is not in line with your own. How you are well within your rights to ignore everything written here, that is your choice, but, if you ask for ideas from people then you have to accept that some of those ideas will differ from yours.

I think the main thing to come from this is that people don’t have a clear view on what CM stands for and what you are trying to achieve. You may know this but if the wider public don’t it will affect how you are perceived. Once people know what you are trying to do you will find that people are more constructive and will listen to you a little more.

Personally, I would refrain from posting about something I had no knowledge or experience of, for fear of looking ignorant and stupid, but to each their own.

Actually…. thinking about it…. there’s no future for you here 😆

Mike, you asked for advice on how it could be improved, you have received some ideas, some sensible, other less so, this happens in life, don’t take it to seriously.

The reason you have riled people here is that you seem to have shot down every idea that is not in line with your own. How you are well within your rights to ignore everything written here, that is your choice, but, if you ask for ideas from people then you have to accept that some of those ideas will differ from yours.

I think the main thing to come from this is that people don’t have a clear view on what CM stands for and what you are trying to achieve. You may know this but if the wider public don’t it will affect how you are perceived. Once people know what you are trying to do you will find that people are more constructive and will listen to you a little more.

+1

you’re worse than the people you’re describing here:

any deviation from their particular view is met with hostility and resentment. Indeed, some are displaying the very antagonism and confrontational behaviour they accuse CM riders of

relax, its nearly christmas!

The reason I first posted about this issue, and why I joined this forum, was to engage in a discussion to challenge those with ignorant, bigoted and negative views of something very few people on here seem to have any actually experience and knowledge of, certainly not recently anyway. As somebody who has actually attended CM rides more recently than anyone who’s yet posted on this issue, I think I probably do have a slightly more informed view of what actually takes place on the rides. again, it’s amusing that those who’ve never even been on a London CM ride, and in some cases don’t even live in London, think they somehow are informed and enlightened about such matters. [/Quote]

Wow, you obviously have a different idea of engaging in discussion to most of us then.
I was always of the opinion that engaging in discussion would involve there being two or more parties who listen to and consider each others viewpoints, your understanding of it seems to be trying to ram your opinion down other peoples throats and poo-pooing others opinions as being ignorant, bigoted and negative.

Obviously because you’ve been on CM rides/protests more often and more recently than anyone else here, what you say must be taken as being correct and what we all think must be wrong. Surely you must be getting the idea by now that you’re likely to get very little, if any support from this forum.

Personally, I would refrain from posting about something I had no knowledge or experience of, for fear of looking ignorant and stupid, but to each their own.

Instead, why not refrain from posting trolling threads on here about things which have very little support or interest to others here, for fear of looking ignorant and stupid?

I think Mike that you are trying to reason with people who are ‘secondary’ cyclists in many instances, they are primarily petrol orientated, and do not wish to be in any way associated with those funny looking ones who do not conform.

you only have to see how many motor related threads that are on here,and the language used to see that ‘cycling’ to quite a few is done in a contained area, and a motor vehicle is essential for that purpose.

so the dynamic is skewed with those priorities, and i don’t think you will make any headway with such people, they see it as another person to put in the stocks and throw things at.

Good luck with your campaigns, leave the empty heads to their endless drivel

The main point seems to boil down to the fact that some of you percieve CM gives all cyclists a bad name. No-one has actually been able to prove this is the case

i would like to offer a quote from a couple in a pub last week.

“bloody cyclists, they are all a pain in the arse, did you see those Critical Mass lot the other day, they should be banned from the roads”

to put this into some sort of context, its the heart of the chilterns, my ride to that point had been 80% offroad yet i am still forced to defend my position on the road by informing them that i do have 3rd party insurance in the event of an accident (that scratches their range rovers door)

so am i wrong, in need of a figure to attack, or just incapable of having a discussion?

you sir, are not helping the cause as far as i can see…mainly cos of your attitude.

I can’t be held responsible for the way others perceive me, especially if tha tperception iis based on such scant information. And what ’cause’ are you talking about? As I’ve pointed out several times; many people who attend CM rides are active in campaigning for better provision for cyclists in London and throughout the UK. CM gives people a chance to meet up, chat, share ideas and views etc. I certainly learned about other’s points of view on the ride.

you talk about them with a perceived authority over everyone else on the forum

I think, that having been on a number of CM rides, including the lates tone, that I have an informed view of them, and in the case of last Friday’s ride, probably more than anyone who has posted so far. Would you not agree that actual experience of something trumps mis-informed prejudiced opinion?

So at 4 mins when the Police man asks everyone to stop blocking the road……why no consider the point is made and move on.

I think people did, as much as they were able really given they were at the back of a group hundreds strong. It’s not like they were going to get very far, so the police officer was being a bit silly really. And it doesn’t help that he calls people ‘idiots’. The only idiot I saw in that clip was him.

Interesting that you omitted mentioning the taxi driver earlier in the clip, the one breaking the law by making threatening statements and generally acting in an extremely agressive manner. Now, I saw quite a number of strong, fir peole on the ride, who could quite easily have overpowered him had it come to it, yet he wasn’t attacked by anyone. Most folk just seemed to find his behaviour amusing really. He chose to get angey, no one forced him to. As a taxi driver, he should be aware that CM happenes the same time once a month, so perhaps he should look for another job is driving in a congested city is too much for him. I dread to think what he would belike if he were stuck behind a tractor or flock of sheep, on a busy country road.

I think the main thing to come from this is that people don’t have a clear view on what CM stands for and what you are trying to achieve

I just go to CM to have a bike ride. I’m not trying to achieve anything other than to have a good time and enjoy myself. Which I did.

I think Mike that you are trying to reason with people who are ‘secondary’ cyclists in many instances, they are primarily petrol orientated, and do not wish to be in any way associated with those funny looking ones who do not conform.

I don’t think it’s fair to label everyone on here in this manner? Surely forum mebers are representative of cyclists everywhere, and as individuals, are informed, enlightened authorities on everytghing relating to cycling? Or have I got that wrong?

mikeconnor – Member
And on that note, I think there’s sadly no point in continuing this discussion,

Why is the ride organised on Friday night ? Probably the busiest and most stressful transport time period in London ?

Is it to highlight that the transport links are inadequate for cyclists + other road users. there fore your message is for improved cycle links, which I’d be all for, and therefore when the adequate cycle facilities are present u will use them for the ride and stop inconveniencing others ?

Or is it to somehow highlight that excessive travelling for a normal working week is stupid especially in London and people should work/live more local ? Again something I might agree with. But as someone who cycle/train commutes from Berkshire to South Ken themselves I’d say the issues here are far more complicated and critical mass is nt really going to achieve anything.

Also why is the website so bad ?

im pretty sure you dont have any idea what a flook of sheep looks like, so dont come round here with your poorly thought out arguments.

i saw a flock of sheep on my ride this morning, which i think trumps the sheep you were counting to get to sleep last night.

I think Mike that you are trying to reason with people who are ‘secondary’ cyclists in many instances, they are primarily petrol orientated,

I’m sorry, but that is complete and utter cobblers.

Ok Mike…. here’s a question for you… seeing as CM is meant to be somehow representative of the cycling fraternity… other than your Friday night ‘celebration’, how many miles have you put in this week? on the road? Seeing as you’re such an authority on the matter!

Just so we can get a direct comparison. I’m up to 75 so far this week. You…..?

I think Mike that you are trying to reason with people who are ‘secondary’ cyclists in many instances, they are primarily petrol orientated, and do not wish to be in any way associated with those funny looking ones who do not conform.

I think that most people are “secondary cyclists”, unless you ride bikes for a living you will always have other perspectives and other things going on, including that of car drivers. This is no bad thing in my opinion as you need to see others point of view to achieve anything.

I just go to CM to have a bike ride. I’m not trying to achieve anything other than to have a good time and enjoy myself. Which I did.

Excellent, I too love riding bikes and go on plenty of rides where I enjoy myself. But, like it or not, CM is not just another ride, it may be for you but perhaps that shows a lack of understanding on your part? May be you’re not quite the expert on it you thought you were?

that video, people jumping red lights, stopping in the road, causing other people (inc. pedestrians) to get irate and angry, increasing the general public’s dislike of cyclists, wasting police time etc etc etc, please tell me how that is going to improve cycling facilities? totally nonsensical.

I think Mike that you are trying to reason with people who are ‘secondary’ cyclists in many instances,

I cycle every day, 200 miles a week +, pretty much all on roads at rush hour…

Well that’s two very informative CM threads now. I was only vaguely aware of CM’s activities before and pretty agnostic about their activities. But mike’s attacks above and in the previous thread and the various YT clips posted by others have helped me form a far more definitive conclusion*.

Thank goodness, that there are other organisations/people able to behave in mature, law-abiding, responsible and respectful ways that are positively promoting the cause of all cyclists in the UK. By the looks of things, they are/will continue to be sorely needed.

* very happy to be presented with evidence to the contrary – but no, the fact that the taxi driver behaved poorly (even when provoked), doesn’t really count.

I just go to CM to have a bike ride. I’m not trying to achieve anything other than to have a good time and enjoy myself. Which I did.

So why then are you posting one here asking people who’s opinions you don’t care about : “how would you improve Critical Mass?'”

Why does it need improving ?
You seem perfectly happy with it.

What exactly is your point ?

I used to go on Critical Mass rides in Australia. A mate of mine said I should come along and I thought that they were just friendly bunch rides through town.

I never found that they caused that much bother in Sydney because there were never very many cyclists coming out and not so many cars in town. But I, and many other people who would show up as one offs, all ended up finding that while the riders were very friendly at the start and end of the ride, during the ride the majority of regulars would almost actively look for trouble.

A lot of riders would ensure the lane was filled, so there was no opportunity for people in quicker vehicles to pass. On a Friday night. When people want their tea. There was no concession to pulling in, no politeness. And politeness is what will help cycling. Not looking for trouble. I have seen Critical Mass riders surround a car that was beeping at them and near as damn-it have a fight with the driver.

While I don’t think we have any less right to the roads than car drivers the simple fact is that beyond the middle of the city they are usually quicker than us and people don’t like to get deliberately held up on their way home to enjoy some free time. A normal commuter is not deliberately slowing anyone down. Critical Mass is.

On the whole, after I’d done 3 or 4 rides I found it too confrontational and it was clearly doing much more harm than good with the attitude of 90% of the regulars. Most people I saw on them would only turn up once and decide that it was clearly a menace to cycling’s reputation and not the friendly, fluffy affair that it likes to think it is.

Any improvements have to come from a change of attitude. The first thing would be a change of day- Friday night is not the time for it. People want to get home on a Friday more than any other night. Winding them up more will not help. A later time when the bulk of the rush hour has gone will also help, around 7.30pm rather than 6pm.

A clearer campaign will also help. 90% of motorists don’t know that you are Critical Mass. They just see a big bunch of people on bikes making trouble. If you were to keep it to a smaller area, say doing a loop a few times, with signs around it then it’d be much clearer and maybe get your message across. If you can’t organise this, then I’d suggest just stopping doing it and let people like the CTC and Sustrans, who can be bothered to organise things, do it instead of a strange vigilante movement.

In the end a change of attitude from confrontational to entirely polite and friendly will help on all counts. Car drivers will put up with being held up if you’re nice about if and don’t go out of your way to be a problem, but more friendliness and politeness will encourage more of your average cyclists to join in and stay and help your cause (although, this does depend on you deciding exactly what your cause is…).

mikeoconner

As a taxi driver, he should be aware that CM happenes the same time once a month, so perhaps he should look for another job is driving in a congested city is too much for him.

What a self riteous, sanctimonious attitude. Like lots of people on here I ride my bike in London every day. I also drive, walk, get the train, the bus and use taxis.

Stop trying to Balkanise us, its you that isnt welcome.

First of all, can I please have permission to have an opinion?

Here is my CV:
I am a cyclist, car driver, and taxes that have been collected from my salary have gone towards funding roads and cycling infrastructure in the UK (***including London***), Netherlands and Germany.
I do not presently reside within the geographical region covered by the London Assembly, TFL, Metropolitan/City Police etc., but have done, and have paid Council Taxes there too.

Sod that, here goes anyway…

I think the main thing to come from this is that people don’t have a clear view on what CM stands for and what you are trying to achieve

The reason I first posted about this issue, and why I joined this forum, was to engage in a discussion to challenge ….

Since this thread seemed to be one asking how to improve CM…. LISTEN FFS. Don’t challenge if it’s something you didn’t want to hear. Don’t challenge opionions if you want to make the way CM is perceived, better.

I just go to CM to have a bike ride. I’m not trying to achieve anything other than to have a good time and enjoy myself.

Really? Seems to me like you can’t make you mind up if you’re the organiser of a protest ride whose image seems not to be that favourable amongst other cyclists, or just a cyclist.

I can’t be held responsible for the way others perceive me

Yes you can.
Don’t challenge what we say, if you ask for our opinions.

mikeconnor – Member
And on that note, I think there’s sadly no point in continuing this discussion,

Starting to see the antagonistic, confrontational return visits as trolling.

Starting to see CM in a very similar light: It’s aims too are confrontation, antagonism, disruption…

Is CM the physical incarnation of trolling?

What a self riteous, sanctimonious attitude. Like lots of people on here I ride my bike in London every day. I also drive, walk, get the train, the bus and use taxis.

too right.

If I see CM I make sure I get as far away from it as possible.

This thread has taken a few twists and turns – starts off asking for opinions (fair enough) then refuses to listen to those opinions and now claiming that you’re nothing to do with CM, you just go along (whereas it started by sounding very much like you were involved at whatever level of organisation they do have).

There have been several people on here now, me included, who’ve done CM rides in the past but stopped because of the confrontational attitude and the fact that there is no clear message – surely that alone should tell you something?

I think you need to look more at events like SkyRide to get more people on bikes, to see how stress free and enjoyable it can be and to convert people to “the cause”, get a cyclists eye view of things.

Also, your (or maybe “their”?) website is terrible.

I just go to CM to have a bike ride. I’m not trying to achieve anything other than to have a good time and enjoy myself.

Please , oh please, stop and tell that to all the people you inconvenience next time. I’m sure they will all be OK with it once they understand that you’re only there to enjoy yourself and have a good time!

(Please ensure to video it when you tell the taxi driver)

Mike, not excusing his actions, but in that video a cyclist is deliberately blocking the taxi driver, not him merely being caught up in the conjestion.

So CM is not a protest group nor knows what it stands for if anything. Fine, its just friends out for a ride, then apparently. So how many on this Forum manage to go out on a evening ride with their friends and are deliberately confrontational, block other road users, ignore the police, jump red lights etc etc. Silly really isn’t it.

I know we’ve done this before but being on the ride and doing good things are not a causal chain. She was doing good things before and wanted to check up on it or what have you. I’m not saying some riders aren’t spurred to do some good but as an “organisation” (I can’t think of a better term), CM has no idea what it stands for or what it wants to achieve so you can’t point at people achieving things and say it was down to CM.

Wow! That video said it all to be honest. Blocking junctions riding all over the road even when there were few enough cyclists not to warrant it, jumping red lights, plenty with no lights on, blocking people with the obvious intent of creating a reaction.

Looks like it does the exact opposite of what most cyclists would like to see.

You can repeat it as much as you want, but it isn’t ‘just a ride with some friends’.

Looked horrendous to me.

Seems to me like you can’t make you mind up if you’re the organiser of a protest ride whose image seems not to be that favourable amongst other cyclists, or just a cyclist.

Well, considering the fact that at no stage have i claimned to be an ‘organiser of a protest ride’, i’d consider that I’m just a cyclist. it’s others who have placed me on this particular pedestal.

So why then are you posting one here asking people who’s opinions you don’t care about : “how would you improve Critical Mass?'”

Why does it need improving ?
You seem perfectly happy with it.

What exactly is your point ?

Well, it appears some peopl eon here have a very negative view, so I was asking for what they would do to help improve it’s image. Reading through, there are very few constructiuve comments, and a lot of ill-informed prejudice. I’m sorry, but uyou can’t claim to have an informed view of something you’ve never been on or even witness, as is clearly the case with quite a number of people on here. One person seemed to base his entire opinion of London CM rides on what he’d seen whilst sitting in a pub in Manchester. Forgive me for not taking comments from people like that seriously, and it’s clear such individuals are not actually interested in any sensible discussion, and just want to wade in and cause trouble. Ironicaly, it’s people like that who should be dissuaded from joining in on CM rides.

I don’t agree that the main ‘aim’ ofCM is to ’cause trouble’. In my experience and knowledge, that’s simply not truye. I accept that some other road users are frustrated by theevent, but as i’ve pointed out several times now; they alone chose to get wound up. No-one batr maybe a very small element set out to do so. The vast majority just want to dride their bikes and have fun.

So, we’ve ascertained that the congestion and delays are unfortunate and non-deliberate consequences of the ride. Certainly, Friday’s ride was particularly large; it seems the police unwittingly gave the event far more publicity than it could have done on it’s own. On average though,. I don’t remeber most CM rides being anywhere near as large.

CM is an imperfect event in an imnperfect world. i think too many people are calling for a perfect solution (ie no CM at all for some people), when one isn’t possible. The ride happens when and where it does, according to it’s tradition. i’m not a Christian, yet I have to endure christmas and the ensuing fuss. Maybe it’s mopre an issue of tolerance; people could learn to be more tolerant and accomodating towards others.

London is a huge, over-congested city, with inadequate transport infrastructure, and too much road traffic. Motor vehicle traffic is detrimental to health, safety and quality of life for all who live in large cities. People must be made to change theri mentality regarding cars; they believe car use (in large cities) is an entitlement, when in fact it should be viewed as a privilege. Personally, I wuld like to see cars bansihed from large parts of London, but clearly I am in a minority and accept that this will not happen, certainly not over night.

Don’t challenge what we say, if you ask for our opinions.

I will challenge what I perceive to be wrong, as many of you have done towards me. Or is it a one-way process? If someone without knowledge or experience of something comments on something and they are ignorant, then they must expect to be challenged. Or refrain from commenting. debate is all about challenging other views. I have learned that many of you are stuubborn and have deeply entrenched views which you will not change. I have come on here wit hthe hope some middle ground could be found, yet instead been met with ignorance, hostility and at times outright rudeness. It’s the internet, I expect nothing less, sadly.

Stop trying to Balkanise us, its you that isnt welcome.

I accept that someone whose opinions differ to that of the regulars on here isn’t going to be welcome. However, i live in hope that at least some on here are capable of interacting in a more amicable manner. Perhaps I am naive in wanting this.

On the point mike keeps making about it just being about having fun on a bike; it turns out Luxembourg has critical mass. It’s the most cycling friendly city I’ve ever lived so I don’t imagine for a second they’re all protesting in which case, it’s clearly about social aspects. I’m going to go along to the next one and see how it goes.

So, we’ve ascertained that the congestion and delays are unfortunate and non-deliberate consequences of the ride.

Sorry. But really non-deliberate? Surely there cannot be any other outcome when 100-200 cyclists ride through a city, in rush hour, ignoring red lights and blocking junctions (insert blah blah about safety etc).

mike – I’m happy to give CM the benefit of the doubt (if I knew what it stood for) but don’t treat people like idiots with rubbish like that.

Personally, I wuld like to see cars bansihed from large parts of London, but clearly I am in a minority and accept that this will not happen, certainly not over night.

I don’t – I have no issue with cars – I own one.

Cars themselves are not bad, but it is the inapproprite use of them that is..

1mile car journey to the shops or to a school is wrong.

ps just come back from Netherlands, surprised they don’t hold a PM (pedestrian mass) in their major cities…. have to keep your wits about you when walking in amsterdam! 😉

mikeconnor, I’m going to take a step back here and just ask this. How about acknowledging those who have put forward sensible and thought out suggestion? You seem to focus on the (in your eyes) unrealistic and naive suggestions, try ignoring those and engaging with those of us who would like to discuss it properly?

people could learn to be more tolerant and accomodating towards others.

Which is the exact opposite of what the cyclists in the film of last weeks London CM were being.

You want people to be more tolerant and accommodating towards cyclists, but won’t extend the same courtesy to other road users? really, you need to have a think about what you’re saying.

I remain convinced that this is in fact a wonderfully elaborate troll from an ex-member of this parish.

Who?