[Closed] So a plumber has forced access into a flat I own because of a leak downstairs.

Go round and have a look?

I want to but I think I need permission from my tenant if he's not in surely?

I reckon if he's working away he'll want you to check it out. Give him a ring and ask him if it's ok to go round while he's not in!!

I assume IANAL you can attend to make sure its secure

Surely the folk who broke in need to leave it secure as well

Just go round and have a look. If the law does not allow it then the law is an arse.

Don't have any contact with the tenant directly it's fully managed. I'm just waiting for the guy who looks after the property management getting back from lunch to phone so I can tell him I want to go and look at it. I'm sure the tenant would feel better if he knew I wanted to go and check it out.

I'm obviously going to pay for any damages to get repaired so the tenant isn't put out but where do I even start with recovering costs, thats even if I have any claim to them. If I find out the police were not in attendance I'm considering phoning the police and reporting it.

Well from the police side of things, there is a power to force entry to prevent damage to property (this exact scenario being the one usually used at police school). Never heard of that power being sub-contracted out by telephone though.

Get full details of the folk working on the flat below and if possible, who entered your flat.. Go round and get pictures etcetera.... Your tenant will thank you for being proactive I think... Plus if its fully managed, the agent should be on it as well IMHO

Plumber should have turned water off at mains outside, to stop water, rung police and asked for a police presence.

No way should a proffesional tradfesman force entry to an occupied flat without police in attendance, something could have been stolen etc,and if police force door then they pay for damage.Unless they have a warrant to search.

Fire brigade also have power to force entry if fire or smoke is seen or other serious risk to life, but if a general risk need police in attendance and give authority.

project +1

As a landlord I think this is a matter between yourself & whoever forced the entry, leak or no leak. It's your property & someone else has gained access. You need to find out who it was IE his name & who he or she works for (if applicable) I wouldn't want the same person who forced the entry to be making good the damage that they've caused. There's a conflict of interest there straight away. If you trust your agent get them round & get an estimate for the damage to be rectified properly & to you complete satisfaction.

If water was coming into my flat from above I'd be taking whatever steps were needed to find the origin, and if it seemed probable that it was coming from the empty flat above then sorry, but ...

I'm guessing the police will have a record of officers in attendance and notes on what happened when they attended?

pitchforks are out already and we dont even know if the police were there yet. i love this place.

[quote=DrJ said]If water was coming into my flat from above I'd be taking whatever steps were needed to find the origin, and if it seemed probable that it was coming from the empty flat above then sorry, but ...

Yes, but what would you do in the situation where the wrong flat was broken in to, as is the case here ?

D

drJ said » If water was coming into my flat from above I'd be taking whatever steps were needed to find the origin, and if it seemed probable that it was coming from the empty flat above then sorry, but

said the defendant when he was found in an un occupied flat, claiming to be looking for a water leak, police officers who arrested him failed to find any such water leak .

Dr J now jailed for burglary

You need to be satisfied the place is secure. You are acting in your tenant's interest as well as your own. Go see what's going on.

why not look on here
http://www.property118.com/category/property-forum/

its full of rich landlords yacking on about their worries

isnt this a bike forum,

The plumber is liable for any damage caused entering your property which he has done illegally. I would report it to the police and send him a letter. You should also report the incident to your insurance company.

Whilst it may seem reasonable to try and stop the water flow you can't just go round breaking into people's property.

You're agent should be sorting this for you, at the expense of the flat/resident/agent downstairs. The sorting should also include, photo's (lots of), inventory, and re-secure by TWO people together, or even police. Your property has been broken into after all. I'd be real pi55ed off. Insurance company needs informing if it's not secured Asap, plumbers details needed etc. Knowing how forced entry works (to an extent through my job) I'd be shocked if the police authorised this over the phone and didn't feel the need to be present. You're tenants now a shiny Breitling and iPad down after all

If the leak turned out to be elsewhere, I'd be a bit peeved if my flat was entered without consent. If not I'd probably be grateful that someone had saved me a big bill for repair to downstairs ceiling.

Maybe my thoughts are coloured a bit by my own experience of having an awkward upstairs neighbour who refused to give a plumber access to change the common drain pipe that leads though his flat and mine, resulting in me having a temporary drain pipe through my bedroom (very nice when the guy on the top floor gets up in the night to take a dump), and then to make matters worse refused to give access to allow his leaking wet room to be fixed by the landlord.

"Tell me who owns the downstairs property so that I can send them a bill or I'll be reporting a break in, possibly a burglary"

why not look on here
http://www.property118.com/category/property-forum/

its full of rich landlords yacking on about their worries

One of the reasons its getting more and more expensive to rent is some people like to make profit/make money/drive up prices for those less fortunate.....but thats another topic too.

One of the reasons its getting more and more expensive to rent is some people like to make profit/make money/drive up prices for those less fortunate

You mean not all landlords do it for the warm, cuddly feeling they get inside?! Good lord, that's insane! Next you'll tell me people want a salary in exchange for going to work!

Comrade njee you need to see the sense of living an agrarian existence.

O.K so here's where I'm at with further info I'm told not to take it as gospel until letting agent confirms. The plumber called the police for access but the police responded saying they wouldn't attend unless a plumber and joiner were in attendance. No joiner was in attendance so the plumber gained access.

I'm told the ceiling below has fallen in and this may have been caused by leak from a pipe leading to the boiler but nobody can confirm that or if it was even fixed. The tenant downstairs cannot provide details of plumber just they were called Elite or similar. The letting agent that looks after the flat downstairs cannot be found with the company name the tenant below provided which I struggle to believe. Ross and Liddell won't help my letting agent as intermediaries as they won't provide owners details of flat below due to data protection. My letting agent are now hoping the owner from downstairs contact them to gather all information. I don't understand why they would but the guy who I've been dealing with say they often come looking to flat above looking for costs to repair damaged ceiling. I know I'm not liable for that but some people aren't aware of this.

The door has been secured and closes as well as it has done but the lock a little wobbly. I can meet my tenant at the property tonight after 6pm for a chat. If the owners below have not contacted my letting agents by 4pm I've instructed my letting agents to call the police and report it. I've instructed my letting agent to fix floorboards and refit carpet and fix wobbly lock but not until I've seen it myself.

I'm told the ceiling below has fallen in and this may have been caused by leak from a pipe leading to the boiler but nobody can confirm that or if it was even fixed.

Again from my own experience - when water has come in from above, it was MY ceiling and walls that got destroyed looking for the leak, not the guy upstairs.

What's all this twaddle about people being "in attendance"? If you wrote simple plain English you'd probably get simple plain advice in reply.

[i]*ducks and runs*[/i]

I'm told the ceiling below has fallen in and this may have been caused by leak from a pipe leading to the boiler but nobody can confirm that or if it was even fixed.
Again from my own experience - when water has come in from above, it was MY ceiling and walls that got destroyed looking for the leak, not the guy upstairs.

Previous leak into flat beneath me (major drama!) was investigated by Glasgow City Council environmental health, factors Ross and Liddell and a plumber from tenants below, and it was actually found to be coming from another flat across the landing, kinda diagonally above the flat below.

The plumber called the police for access but the police responded saying they wouldn't attend unless a plumber and joiner were in attendance. No joiner was in attendance so the plumber gained access.

So the police may know who the plumber was and importantly, the plumber entered your flat without police consent which is in effect, breaking in...

Has your agents agent appeared yet ?

OP if the leak is from your flat you will be liable for the repairs downstairs. However the plumber will be liable for the damage he has caused to your flat. I would be a little suspicious about the "some guy from ELITE but I don't know who". The plumber didn't "gain access" he broke in.

How did they get through the lock I wonder?

Have you seen it for yourself yet?

it was actually found to be coming from another flat across the landing, kinda diagonally above the flat below.

Yeah - water does that 🙁 It ran diagonally above my kitchen ceiling from the place where the leak was (actually overflowing cistern upstairs) to where it found a way in to run down the wall, from corner to corner, necessitating replacing the whole lot.

Has your agents agent appeared yet ?

Spoke with him on the phone, he was the one that gave me the details about the plumber, joiner etc. All that comes from my tenant who has been told this from the tenant below. (Why I've been told not to take it as gospel.)

Everything is pretty much on hold until after 4pm to see if the owners downstairs get in touch. My tenant is ok with the door and how secure it is. He just mentioned its a little wobbly.

Have you seen it for yourself yet?

Not yet will go and meet tenant tonight after 6pm when he is in. Unfortunately I don't live in Glasgow anymore and I need to have the tenant there when I go, which I feel more comfortable with.

Ross and Liddell won't help my letting agent as intermediaries as they won't provide owners details of flat below due to data protection.

try the land registry they keep details of most property owners along with mortgage providors,

Good work stepping up and looking after your tennant btw...

Instead of lifting the floorboards in your house why didn't he get access through the ceiling of the flat he was in!?
Edit:
And while I'm at it what about your 'fully managed' letting…. sounds like your agents need to be earning their fee!

Letting agents are up there with estate agents and recruitment agents in my book.....
I like secret agents though.

At this point I would be contacting the police [ or demanding the letting agency do this] and reporting the braking and entering of my property without lawful authority

They cannot just kick your doors in and they must have know this.

So latest update is Ecosse "whatever" who are the letting agents for the flat below are actually the owners of the property too. They contacted my letting agent this afternoon to contact them about the situation. The report they have is the leak was caused by a faulty lead pipe to copper fitting that can't handle the pressure or heat coming from the hot water supply in boiler through the flat , even thought it's worked ok for 10 years. I'm guessing the part has just failed. Their plumber removed the part last night and readjusted it and re fitted it and now it's not leaking but they have suggested I have all lead removed and replaced with plastic piping.

The letting agent/owners couldn't provide a phone number for the plumbers only an email (weird) and the person who instructed them to go to the job wasn't in the office today. My agent guy has emailed them looking for redress for the damage that they caused, but it does look like Police were not present. I asked my agent guy what the other letting agents said when he accused the plumber of unlawful entry, they seem very surprised this was the case.

I still feel I should report this to the Police, whether the plumbers pay me redress or not.

I'd be cross with the plumber but as long as they paid for any damage I'm not sure I'd want them to have a criminal record for breaking and entering?

(I feel all dereknightrider saying that).

The report they have is the leak was caused by a faulty lead pipe to copper fitting that can't handle the pressure or heat coming from the hot water supply in boiler through the flat , even thought it's worked ok for 10 years.

So, at the end of the day, was this leak from your flat, or from elsewhere? I didn't quite understand ...

burnsybhoy - Member
The letting agent/owners couldn't provide a phone number for the plumbers only an email…

It would be worth doing a google search of that email address – if it is the plumber’s trade email, it might lead to name / phone etc.

The plumbers reported is came from my flat and it was a faulty lead to copper fitting. Doesn't justify breaking in tho.

I still feel I should report this to the Police, whether the plumbers pay me redress or not.

Doubt they will be interested. What crime has the plumber committed? The only crimes anyone has suggested are "breaking in" or vandalism.

Vandalism doesn't apply if there is a reasonable excuse. I'd guess stopping a leak when the occupier can't be traced is reasonable. It's certainly arguable enough that I doubt anyone has been charged in these sort of circumstances.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/39/part/VI/crossheading/vandalism

Housebreaking only applies if there is an intent to steal.

As long as you are reimbursed for any costs I think that's the end of it.

Housebreaking only applies if there is an intent to steal.

report the breaking and entry end of when the police find the culprit sue him for costs etc. we never enter a property without a plod and we take stills and video evidence on our phones before and after of any repairs damage etc.. simples..

Well, regardless of what the letter of the law says, your bad plumbing has caused damage and inconvenience to the folk downstairs. I would say you should leave it at that

Plumber should have turned water off at mains outside, to stop water, rung police and asked for a police presence.

No way should a proffesional tradfesman force entry to an occupied flat without police in attendance, something could have been stolen etc,and if police force door then they pay for damage.Unless they have a warrant to search.

^^This is all they had to do and get a joiner/locksmith to attend.

Agreed. They made a mistake in a moment of stress.

I hope the plumber never removed your faberge egg whilst in the property without police being present...

Sancho - Member
why not look on here
http://www.property118.com/category/property-forum/

its full of rich landlords yacking on about their worries

isnt this a bike forum,

No it's a chat forum, hence 'Chat' at the top. Ill informed and chip on shoulder, poor you.

OP are we talking about Scotland here?

If so then it's pretty much what irc says.

OP are we talking about Scotland here?

Yeah thegreatape it's in Glasgow

I don't see any criminal offence then. Liability for the costs of fixing any damage I wouldn't know.

That's not to say he's gone the right way about it. Up here one of the shift cops would attend at the councils request if they need to force entry in this scenario, and that's for their sake as much as the occupiers. I would think that the same would apply to a commercial tradesman.

Their plumber removed the part last night and readjusted it and re fitted it and now it's not leaking

Assume he didn't do this repair from inside your flat, in which case, presumably not your plumbing?

Yeah thegreatape it's in Glasgow

In which case[b] your details[/b], downstairs owner and letting agents and contact details are all on web, a matter of public record [b]as a registered landlord.[/b]
Get this handed over to [b]your landlord insurer[/b] now, and get them to sort it out.

You can really tell from that post you are [i]really [/i]hoping he's not properly registered as a landlord or doesn't have proper landlords insurance 🙂

[quote=project ]Fire [s]brigade[/s] Service also have power to force entry if fire or smoke is seen or other serious risk to life, but if a general risk need police in attendance and give authority.

We normally use this big red key

[img] [/img]

then discover the door wasnt locked 😳

Merseyside police now use chainsaws and Still saws for gaining entry, while shouting repeatedly POLICE, as if when you hear someone using a chainsaw Against your door, you dont think its the Milk man.

Merseyside police now use chainsaws and Still saws for gaining entry, while shouting repeatedly POLICE, as if when you hear someone using a chainsaw Against your door, you dont think its the Milk man.

Of course it's not the milk man, it's your friendly plumber come to fix a leak.

In which case your details, downstairs owner and letting agents and contact details are all on web, a matter of public record as a registered landlord.
Get this handed over to your landlord insurer now, and get them to sort it out.
You can really tell from that post you are really hoping he's not properly registered as a landlord or doesn't have proper landlords insurance

Sorry to disappoint but I'm fully registered and have proper landlords insurance. To be honest after the mortgage, agents fees, factor fees and landlords insurance has been paid from the rent a tiny bit is left over which goes into a pot to cover any works that need done. The flat is self sufficient. I'm hardly Donald Trump. The person I'm more concerned about is my tenant and how he feel as it's an intrusion into his private space.

Burnsybhoy - my statement wasn't a dig, it was meant as a statement that all the contact info you needed (bar the plumber) was on the web. I presumed you also had tenants details, as these would be on the tenancy.
I too am a landlord in Perthshire, and am fed up and want out as well. I too have had issues with other building tentants and landlords (leaks) as well as a tenant we had to get all legal with and we have seen no money out of (-£4.5k)
Good on you for sorting out direct, been there myself at midnight with tenant away, and me on phone to her asking to get in her home...

Sancho - what's your line of work?

You bastard! How dare you CARE about your tenant. Don't you know you're meant to be parasitic scum?

Sancho - Member
yes boblo i do have a chip on my shoulder, from my experience I consider landlords a set of ****, a bunch of parasites.
but if you had read the link, the op would have got far more information from a forum for landlords, you dickhead.

Parasites? Presumably if you've been in rented either you couldn't or chose not to buy. In which case, it's lucky these parasites were there to allow you to make that choice.

Not sure who you're calling a dickhead but it's a bit unnecessary when everyone around you is being reasonably polite.

Didn't mean to come across as defensive matt_outandabout. 🙂

Not read the entire thread, and my following comment is useless information for you, but, from experience, Ross & Liddell are a shower of incompetent twunts who made owning/letting a flat a complete ball ache.

ive had leaks from tenants above in the past. Me and housing association contacted landlord and tenants and got it fixed...but in an emergency if it was serious enough i would contact all parties let the polis know as best as possible put the water off and forcd entry if necc. The housing assoc would probably arrange on my behalf. i think you just have to be reasonable.. with any flood, fire or gas incident that causes problems for other people you just have to deal with it. Insurance will sort it out after. Thats what its for.

Not read the entire thread, and my following comment is useless information for you, but, from experience, Ross & Liddell are a shower of incompetent twunts who made owning/letting a flat a complete ball ache.

After 12 years I know this only too well. You should have seen my face when I moved house into a newer housing development in Ayrshire. Guess who organises the contract for the maintenance for the communal landscape areas and park? If I move again I will not buy a house if they are involved in anyway.

Here's a question; do you have the contact details for the flat above yours should they have a leak?
Can't help but feel that a bit of forewarning would have gone a long way here (if possible).

Likewise. Never before have I paid so much money for so little in return. Don't get me started on sinking funds, it boils my pee just thinking about it. They've still got cash from my flat I sold 12 months ago!

Here's a question; do you have the contact details for the flat above yours should they have a leak?
Can't help but feel that a bit of forewarning would have gone a long way here (if possible).

Yeah I know the owner from when I lived there. I lived in the flat for 11 years before we had to move. My partner and I had twins so we outgrew a 1 bedroom tenement flat pretty quickly.

Not read the entire thread, and my following comment is useless information for you, but, from experience, Ross & Liddell are a shower of incompetent twunts who made owning/letting a flat a complete ball ache.

Just to balance this out: R&L are also a shower of incompetent twunts if you're a tenant too. They were the agents for my old shop, and I dread to think how much their incompetence and belligerence cost me.

You could have asked where your nice shiny "expensive" bike was, as you were sure it was there before the plumber went in 🙂

Mmmmm .. Don't think anyone is whining about unfairness. The OP is angry about his property being entered by a third party - unreasonably in my view, but not whining. As someone else said, renting out property provides a service to people who for whatever reason don't or can't buy themselves. Personally I sold my buy-to-let flat because the ratio of rent to value was so low that I was better off putting the,money in the bank. It's not the licence to print money that you imagine.

Ross & Liddell should have contacted you directly to let you know your flat had a leak, and should have been able to send someone to turn a valve off in the stair, I'd be holding them partly responsible as well. Afraid to say there are few decent factors out there, they're as bad as each other.