SNP. You LOST, get over it

+1 scotroutes for the EU question.

How does that play out though? If UK get in/out EU referendum, and choose ‘out’, does Scottish Govt then push through an independence motion, or try to claim some sort of unilateral membership, outwith the UK?

Or we could just wait a few years, and wait for the OAPs who voted no to croak, and then it’ll swing 10% in favour of yes.

Oh and are all the people who said ‘we won’t get any more devolved powers, it was all a big con, you mark my words’ going to take it all back? 😛

But why did those OAPs vote No but the new one’s won’t? I thought it was due to the aging population and pension worries.

It might even be true but I’ve not seen any evidence.

I am not sure how you could prove it tbh but its intention was to swing the vote.

we won’t get any more devolved powers, it was all a big con, you mark my words’ going to take it all back?

You may wish to wait till Westminster has delivered on this before suggesting this

Just to point out a couple of facts
Only a 6% swing is needed
The Westminster govt wouldn’t be able to impose another Indy vote if yes wins in the future. That’s pretty dumb thinking.

Labour is fast losing it’s remaining credibility, libdems are finished after the coalition and Tories clinging to one seat. It will be interesting to see how many SNP MP’s end up in Westminster at the next general quite possible they could be the 3rd party in the uk. Do you think if SNP are in the majority they will stop pushing for Indy again.

With road signs becoming a devolved responsibility, some of the new designs are already on show.

I would like to see Bagpipes get licesened and taxed – about Eleventy Million pounds per minute of play – except for pipe bands – they would get 99% rebate at Hogmanay. See if you can guess which city centre I work in…

“A kilt covers the body from the waist down to the centre of the knees”

so the waist and the knees then ?

Not really ‘evidence’ granted but two close friends of mine who were undecided ended up voting no, largely on the basis of the proposed new powers.

Also whilst new powers have been proposed they are nowhere near what Gordon brown spoke of but they are closer to what the Labour / CONservative party suggested. It is also too early to judge as they are still just proposals and need Westminster approval.

SNP. You LOST, get over it

Actually no, it doesn’t look like they did.
It’s politics – get over it.

For ***** sake

I was quite happy ignoring both sides as they agreed amongst themselves and ignored the fact that those that disgreed still exist. At least on FaceTwit the two camps are still blissfuly ignoring each other.

Actually no, it doesn’t look like they did.

Is scotland going to be an independent country any time soon?

No.

Additional powers wasn’t what the SNP campaigned for, they campaigned for full independence. Hence theres no two ways about it, they lost.

Additional powers wasn’t what the SNP campaigned for, they campaigned for full independence. Hence theres no two ways about it, they lost.

They certainly didn’t win, but did they lose? They managed to wring a lot more concessions out of Westminster than looked possible at the start of the campaign.

Sturgeon needs some proper tax advice if she thinks making the top rate 50% will actually do anything.

Page 2 already – is this one going to be as long as the last Scottish Independence thread?

I might disconnect my internet now, just in case…
You could just click on the Bike Form only, I tried but failed, can’t stay away !

Even if the SNP had a 100% of the seats in Holyrood it could not declare independence, I am sure they would make plenty of noise, we know they are good at that, but they cannot exit unilaterally whether the UK remains in the EU or not.

True but it would be an interesting stand off as I dont the rUK would invade either and would have to respect a vote if they held one

Sturgeon needs some proper tax advice if she thinks making the top rate 50% will actually do anything.

@NZ that’s why these announcements are perfect, give the Scots control over tax rates and bands and let them actually deal with the problem instead of taking cheap shots at Westminster.

They can abolish APT and get a few extra passengers from Newcastle but they will have a big hole in their budget.

I’m pretty sure that’s a Labour policy and not an SNP one. Tax take has been estimated at around £8m pa. Hardly worthwhile in the grand scheme of things.

JY, why would the UK have to respect a vote in the regional Scottish parliament for independence ? I can’t see us sending in the troops either but there are plenty of other mechanisms for preventing a unilateral declaration of independence having any meaning.

FWIW I cannot see there being another independence referendum without there being a corresponding vote in the UK, “Should Scotland be allowed a another referendum ?”

I totally understand why the SNP is trying to ride the wave in Scotland (interesting there is one at all given they lost the vote) as they want to reinforce their majority there and make trouble in Westminster

Hardly worthwhile in the grand scheme of things

Depends, how many votes will it win?

Lost tourism income due to APD estimated at £200m. Income from APD – £130m.

I can think of other reasons it should be retained (or even increased) but the financial argument in favour of reduction seems sounds>

True but it would be an interesting stand off as I dont the rUK would invade either and would have to respect a vote if they held one

Would they though? Without a very large majority i don’t think the UK government would need to respect a vote they didnt agree to, especially if they haven’t actively been engaged in the referendum process. I wouldn’t see it any differently than the situation in Spain, only with less appetite for independence

And how would that sit with the fairly sizable and influencial population that voted no? I dont think Scotland could just walk away from the uk without their consent. Certainly there would be even greater challenges around aspects such as currency, split of wealth etc, that played such a prominant part in the recent ref debate.

Sure would be interesting, but i doubt in a good way!

I think part of the reason for the strong push for independence for Scotland come from the fact that power have been so slow to head north of the boarder. You see this throughout history, central governments trying to keep too tight a control for too long. Give Scotland these promised powers, but also with it less backup from Westminster. Its too easy for the SNP to paint a picture of utopia if only they had more power where as the reality would be some improvements in some areas and other areas would get worse but the compromises made would come from Scottish parliament rather than Westminster and and the SNP would have to take responsibility rather than slopey shoulders.

TheBrick – Member
I think part of the reason for the strong push for independence for Scotland come from the fact that a minority of Scots love to whinge, especially about the English.

FTFY

Fortunately the majority saw and see sense and know what’s in their best interests. They are less vocal but know how to vote – the beauty of the ballot box, you can’t intimidate in there. hence the %age of SNP voters who voted NO!

Lost tourism income due to APD estimated at £200m. Income from APD – £130m.

I’d say the lack of decent direct flights does more harm. Yes, Easyjet etc offer foreign routes but it’s an absolute pain that BA don’t and everything needs to go via London. It took me 10 hours to get to from Glasgow to Stuttgart last week via two flights and a 4 hour wait in Heathrow.

Lost tourism income due to APD estimated at £200m. Income from APD – £130m.

@scot the key word there is estimated, its a guess and I venture to suggest a politically motivated one.

You see this throughout history, central governments trying to keep too tight a control for too long.

@TheBrick IMO History clearly shows centralising government and and thus harmonising and enlarging countries has been beneficial. Devolving power just means more cost overheads and even more politicians with a sense of grandeur.

Due to the late intervention of the UK parties with the promise of some kind of DevoMax, no-one can say for sure what would have happened without that. My view is that there would still have been a No vote, but with a smaller majority.

In most cases I think that would have parked the issue for maybe 20 years or so, however UK wide politics is in such a confused state at the moment that I can see a few scenarios where an earlier referendum might be likely:
1) If we were to get a Tory/UKIP coalition as a UK government
2) If there is Yes vote in a referendum to exit the EU
3) If the SNP were to gain a majority of the Scottish seats in westminster and use that to bargain their votes for another referendum
4) If the SNP were to get more than 50% of the vote at the next Scottish election with a referendum in their manifesto
5) If the next government backs away from the devoMax promises leading to some No voters feeling betrayed

And how would that sit with the fairly sizable and influencial population that voted no? I dont think Scotland could just walk away from the uk without their consent.

I think there would need to be a pro-independence vote of maybe 60% before it could actually happen without a significant backlash. A narrow Yes vote would have been a big problem in the last referendum I think.

the fact that a minority of Scots love to whinge, especially about the English.

Have you ever considered that you are part of the problem?

Well, we were not part of Scotland being slow to adjust to an unbalanced and uncompetitive industrial structure in the 70s and 80s and we are not to blame for an over concentration on Oil and financial services now.

But given the high percentage of foreign ownership of oil and whiskey these days, there is already an alternative set of targets to blame not just the English.

Still let’s see if (unlike the tartan tax) these new powers can be put to good use.

Well, we were not part of Scotland being slow to adjust to an unbalanced and uncompetitive industrial structure in the 70s and 80s and we are not to blame for an over concentration on Oil and financial services now.

Who’s “we” in this context?

We’ll have to wait and see if they are implemented first. Much of what was previously recommended as part of the Calman Commission got no further (e.g. APD).

It took me 10 hours to get to from Glasgow to Stuttgart last week via two flights and a 4 hour wait in Heathrow.

Did you pick odd flights, as KLM and BA both offer flights on that route, with a total time of under 5 hours.

why would the UK have to respect a vote in the regional Scottish parliament for independence ?

Like you I have no idea why they would have to respect the wishes of the people 😕

I don’t want to get dragged into this but people (not just here) keep alluding to the “fact” that older people and OAPs were the only group who voted majority No in the referendum.

This is probably based on the “Ashcroft poll” of 2000 people after the referendum which showed a majority for Yes in all age groups except the over 55s and 18-24s ..

This poll (although mentioned to by Alex himself and massively tweeted by yes voters after the vote, usually with jolly “wait until they die” undercurrent) was probably very wrong.

A larger Yougov poll of 4000 people, which came out a bit later and received very little attention, showed a majority No vote among all but one age group (25-39).

Theres more info here in an article at the herald scotland (registration required for full article)

Incidentally the Ashcroft poll also showed 71/29 in favour of independence for 16-17 year olds (also widely tweeted as an example of Alex Salmonds political canniness). That particular result was based on just 14 people out of the 2000, so draw your own conclusions.

I realise that yes voters want to find reassurance in the fact that they “almost won” or “would’ve won except for X.. Y or Z”, but as they were fond of saying during the campaign “only one poll matters “.

Well they were right about that.

While there is no question that the SNP lost the referendum vote it’s also quite possible that they’ve come out of the referendum by far the strongest of the parties in Scotland. Whether the current polling figures actually continue into the general election is debatable (as that often comes down to a straight Tory v Labour fight so voting for that has been very different than the voting for the Scottish parliament) but if they did then we’d be in a very confused situation indeed. If Labour lost enought Scottish seats that they’d need SNP votes in the UK parliament then it’s very hard to see the price for that being anything other than an agreement to support the holding of another referendum.

The only people I know who are chuntering for extra powers are those who lost. All the No voters I know, don’t want them. Which side was in the majority?

Back to the tax issue. How do you have a nation set it’s own taxes, that then get paid to Westminster! What if the taxes are not comparable with the rest of the UK, how is the “big pot” then divi’d up? if the nation sets lower taxes, does that mean they get less back and that then affects everything in that nation,e.g Hospital, schools, roads etc?? or is it a bit like have your cake and eat it!

the alternative offer was for MORE devolution

Really? Have you forgotten the question on the ballot paper already? The alternative offer was to remain in the union, which is what two million people voted for.