Snowboarding problems (Feet)

GrahamS – Member
Trust me Neil Macnab wouldn’t ride duck.
That image I just posted is from Page 53 of his book.

What goes in books and what people do are not always the same thing, the reason I don’t ride duck is precisely because he or it might have been Becky told me not to and why, I’m just trying to be helpful here, and have been lucky enough to be taught by really good riders and spent lots of time riding with them, for all mountain riding and in the early stages duck style is not good for all the reasons given (bad angulation on the rear knee which ever direction you’re riding when and even worse on toeside.

This guy is in pain as it happens not due to bad stance angle, more due to poor technique, but if he’s following duck riders theirtechnique will be crap, they’ll be sparing their toesides not riding steep deep directionally and traversing with too much edging I would guess.

Having said all that the best advice is a good coach out there, personally I do favour guiding with some coaching rather than stock lessons from schools, guides will correct and demonstrate why you shoud do this or that and if you’re crap they’ll tell you and not take you where perhaps you shouldn’t go because your edging is likely to cause a snowslide.

Bluehelmet, I’ve been riding for 21 years. The last 5/6 years I’ve spent about 60 hours in tuition, very good tuition, probably the same standard that mcnab would teach at.
I ride 21/18 duck and don’t sideslip around the Alps.

A Private lesson is so worth the money if it’s with a good instructor like neil or mint or similar. That and a humble “I can still learn no matter how good I think I am” attitude

I used to get it years ago.
Combination of things, boots a bit big, poor technique which resulted in over tightening of boots, tense feet.
The book/DVD above will help, along with relaxed time on the board.

Must be devastating to find out after 20 + years you’ve been doing it all wrong then? 😆

Whatever each to his/her own it’s not the issue here.

But I still think duck riders are cocks. 😉

What goes in books and what people do are not always the same thing, the reason I don’t ride duck is precisely because he or it might have been Becky told me not to and why

I’m sure there are plenty of reasons not to ride duck, especially if you are racing, bombing or wanting to carve. But I find it very hard to believe that McNab told you it was “best not to exceed zero zero” for general riding. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone ride zero zero. My feet wouldn’t even fit on the board like that!

For the record I used to ride a very aggressive forward-facing stance back in the bad old 90s when that was the done thing. These days I ride an almost true Duck of +15/-12, way more relaxed.

Burton team page has 10 riders of which 8 ride with – degree rear foot and quite a few of them very duck footed.

How good could Shaun White be if he corrected his stance eh………. 🙄

Back when I learnt (in ski boots) it was all about tucking your back knee in behind your front one and turning your upper body! It’s very different (better!!) now!

Must be devastating to find out after 20 + years you’ve been doing it all wrong then?

Whatever each to his/her own it’s not the issue here.

But I still think duck riders are cocks.

Au contraire, I realised I’d being doing it wrong for about 10 years 10 years ago, then ducked out after buying mcnabs dvd in which promotes foot peddaling and started a chain of courses which has improved my riding no end.

And if im a cock, I’m a cock that can snowboard well 😉

To the op.

1. Boots, make sure they fit (possibly footbeds as well).
2. Bindings, do they fit the boots and don’t over tighten (heel lift is mainly bad technique also)
3. Angles and stance width, play around, strap in when in the house and crouch, jump, press and see how it feels, if your stance is too narrow you could be rolling your feet over.
4. High backs, dont rely on them, if you lean on them too long it will push your feet into the tounge of your boots, bend your knees more and pull up on your toes and drive your heel down.
5. Don’t stay on one edge for ages, keep moving/turning.
6. Get some lessons, better still go on a full week course with a school, it will be worth it.
7. Take up skiing if 1-6 didnt work.

A few words from the McNab book:-

“Most riders use around -6? on their back foot (measured perpendicular to the length of the board). The front foot is around +20?. This angle difference provides effective pressure control and a good field of view.”

Sounds like “Duck” to me.

You’ve got some very different ideas there Bluehelmet. #trollmuch?

http://www.mcnabsnowboarding.com/snowboarding/snowboard-tech-tip-traversing/

Might be worth a read OP. You really shouldn’t need to curl your toes.

Trust me Neil Macnab wouldn’t ride duck.
…
What goes in books and what people do are not always the same thing…

Neil McNab, riding duck, in 2015, not in a book…

Screenshot from this video

Neil set up my stance. Its duck. That is all 🙂

Quack quack Mcnab rides +18 -6 I do believe . This thread is amusing . Best of luck OP with a solution

Ok tried not to bite but had a few drinks and now can’t resist it. Put you feet stance width apart, do 20 squats, if your feet are still 0/0 then feel free to ride 0/0. Nearly everyone else will be duck, so that’s why we ride duck!

I have been fortunate enough to get to a reasonable level (BASI 2), my brother is ISIA and I have been lucky enough to be triained by some of the best trainers in Britain (Ash Newnes and Ben Kinner) they all ride duck, I have seen Ben rip it with no highbacks but I wouldn’t recommend that for the average rider!

To the OP custom footbeds will help, the right boots are key! Good bindings that major on comfort will also help, lessons from a good instructor will definitely help with the foot pain as well as improving your technique and that will most importantly allow you to have more fun!

I have very flat feet and still from time to time get severe foot pain despite everything, it’s just one of those things, take it as an excuse to have a break then come back and hit it hard again.

ahwiles I think gave the best advice above.

Try angling your highbacks forward a bit more, this will make it easier to edge on your heel side without much effort. This will also force you to bend your legs more. You may think you are bending them enough… believe me you probably aren’t. Get someone to video you on a phone and you will see.

Try changing more between heel and toe edges, plan your descent route in advance to allow you to do this. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t get numbing pain riding on their heels for too long.

But yes, lessons would be best.

Try angling your highbacks forward a bit more

Opposite of this for me – I find more forward lean give me sore feet.

I did a mcnab week in france a whole bunch of years ago. First thing he did was get everyone to set up duck – even before we sit the snow. Personally I don’t think it is universally the ‘right’ stance. It’s ‘a’ stance.

For all of you out there who have never tried a very forward stance spend spare a hour of your holiday and give it a go – its free – just a few screws to turn. 40f/30b is a good start then maybe more forward. The extra edge hold on ice in incredible.

Earl, maybe yes. Just making the point about adjusting the highback angles either forward or back. It does make quite a difference, and remember front and back foot highbacks don’t have to be at the same angle of lean, I have my back foot angled a bit further forward than the front. You can also try rotating the highbacks independently of the bindings, I have mine at 90 degrees to the board edge, not aligned with the binding angles… this works for me, you may be different. Just simple staff to try which might help.

If only I could do nollies…… I find committing to them super scary. That’s this winter’s project.

40f/30b is a good start then maybe more forward.

At that point it’s time to admit to yourself that you are ski-curious.

What you could try are the following:

Get properly fitted for a new pair of boots – my hire boots used to absolutely kill my feet until I bought a nice pair of Salomons, then problem gone. Perhaps move onto a slightly stiffer, firmer more aggressive boot that supports your ankle properly, rather then a park orientated boot which will be more flexible but offer much less support.

Try going to Ellis Brighams, for £15 they used to have a ‘Stancefinder’ device that measured everything and finds your most natural angle, and stance width. Guess what for me it was full duck +15/-15. Contrary with what BlueHelmet (or what ever his injury was called) said, the new stance really helped me progress my riding and comfort on the board and duck stance enables you to ride switch much easier.

Try a pair of bindings where both straps balance each other out to relieve pressure points. K2’s AUTO system was genius for this, both straps are linked and tensioned via a cable and the same ratchet and provides a great combination of comfort and control. Although I’m not a fan myself, Flow and K2 Cinch step in bindings are super comfortable and might help relieve your problems. Try turning your highbacks independently of the footbeds to face parallel to the edge of the board (not perpendicular to the footbeds), this is how they should be set up anyway. Regarding the highback angle, try the middle setting and that should be good for starters.

If you’re mostly piste riding and trying to keep up with your mates, consider a stiffer more aggressive board that carves and holds an edge in hard pack with ease. A soft park board will be a lot harder on you in this situation as you’ll need to work it so much more and it will tend to wash out on icy pistes, harder turns meaning you’ll be using more energy to make it stick.

Do specific strengthening for calves and ankles – speak to a good sports physio, (or podiatrist) they will have a proper look at you and tell you if you’ve a problem or not, and recommend some strengthening excersizes that will help. A proper sports massage on lower legs and feet might help too a few days before your trip, to help clear any residual muscle stress.

Get some more lessons with a snowboard coach – this will improve your riding whatever standard you’re at. a Despite riding for 15 years we did a backcountry day with off piste guide (who also rides the freeride world tour) and the amount we learnt during those 8 hours was phenomenal. Funnily enough he rode duck stance too 😉

Can’t believe how much bitching there’s been about stance angles! 🙂

Just for balance, the last bit of tuition I had was with a couple of people who have also competed at high level, and they were pushing me into a forward stance from my -3. “Let’s start with 36 15.” “No” “We should try some forward in the back foot, can we have +9?” We went with +6.

More than one way to skin a cat.

There might be ways to teach snowboarding which are easier if the students have a standardised starting point – you’re better able to explain what the feeling is that they’re looking for.

But wouldn’t it be boring if we all rode the same way? And we never will, even if we’re taught the same. One of the things that constantly amazes me is how easy it is to pick your mates at a distance out on a slope. You might not be able to pick out the colour of the jacket, but you know how they hold themselves going from turn to turn.

Can’t believe how much bitching there’s been about stance angles!
..More than one way to skin a cat.

Indeed, which is why Neil McNab allegedly saying it was “best not to exceed zero zero” is frankly bizarre.

I’ve never seen anyone ride zero/zero, regardless of the feline they were peeling.

Earl – Member

Opposite of this for me – I find more forward lean give me sore feet.

i suggested it as an exercise (rather than a permanent fix), to help astura’s body learn that he/she doesn’t need to lift his/her toes to load the heel edge.

it took me years to teach* my body that loading the toe-edge doesn’t require me to try and stand on my toes.

(*coaching, brutal, honest, coaching)

I ride a duck(ish) stance as it gives me more freedom to ride switch.

Can’t see the point of a really forward stance on anything other than a very directional board??!?!

I did think about changing to skiing but looking inot whats been put down it definetly seems like technique, i can say now that when i go onto my heel edge im curling my toes to do it, rather than pushing down on hy heels.

I went to Chatel this year and it was a lot better,, infact i managed 2 days without massive pain – but it still put me down quite a lot,, i do tend to ride heel edge a lot especially if im off piste,, heel edge is my most confident edge but again gives me the most pain so have to keep changing.

The only other issue i can across,which i think was more of a confidence issue was i was better on the red runs than i was on the blue, i found the blue pretty tight to turn on and found my back was always to the edge so it felt uncomfortable

I probably only do it 2 – 3 times a year in total so im always going to forget quite a bit once told

a very directional board

I think this probably falls into that category. 😀

I think you need to turn more, ride edge to edge. What do you do when you get to the edge of the piste? Or are you side slipping a lot? You might have found the red easier as it was steeper and you could get your edge to bite a bit more.

Check your boots fit properly, and if you’re hiring, buy some that fit. Adjust your bindings, play with angles and highback position. Oh and did I say turn more.

Go to a snowdome and see if an instructor can get you a better riding position. Get a one on one lesson in resort.

If none of the above helps, try skiing, it’ll be just as good fun as snowboarding.

@ Nedrapier – yep that’s what I was thinking!! 🙂

In response to OP…..how many pairs of boots have you tried on? I got new boots on Sunday……tried loads on in the company of a decent boot fitter! Still getting used to them….I got a numb toe after a little while! I’m sure that I’ll get used to them though.

In response to the poster going on about riding with a no more than 0-0 stance 😯 Seriously?!! Can’t say that I’ve ever witnessed a single person riding 00!!!! Seen a few riding both feet with positive angles (slalom/boarder cross types) and seen plenty on uneven angles…..me I’m +15 -15 most of the time as I try and ride a fair bit of switch when doing freestyle. I generally feel more comfortable on those angles piste bashing too, although I’ve ridden +18 -12 too and quite liked it for (poorly attempting!) carving and also for the off piste day that I did.

I’ve still got a pair of Flow bindings from about 10 years ago – you can buy them if you want some super comfy (and super flexy) bindings…

i bought boots when my feet hurt but i stoopidly didnt check my bindings. selling them after 5 runs in the dome.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/burton-2016-snowboard-boots#post-7312624

Having done quite a few seasons and lived with top level basi instructors that have passed on bits of wisdom it has really opened up my eyes to how much tiny tweaks in technique can have huge effects on your riding. I’d say 70% of your problem is technique so go get lessons. Most people have beginner lessons to learn the very basics enough for them to just about get around and then fumble the rest of the way through their learning process picking up poor technique and bad habits as they go. Ultimately lessons will make you better, riding better will be more comfortable and more fun.

The other 30% is basic setup of your gear. As a rule i’d start with the bindings in the reference stance width that your board recommends (assuming that you have the correct board size and type for your weight and ability).

Binding angles are a very personal thing. i ride duck -15/+15 but know pros that ride very odd angles so maybe start duck and then adjust in small increments to your comfort level.

Binding highbacks should be set to the least forward lean they go to start with. Generally rotated so that they are parallel with the heal edge of your board. Binding ankle strap should be adjusted so that they pull the boot back and down rather than just down as this way they will hold your boots in position and help stop heel lift without the need to overtighten and create pressure points in your foot.

Boots are important to correctly fit. I tend to get 4 or 5 weeks riding a season plus snowdomes so I size down 1-1.5 sizes in the anticipation that they will get ridden a lot and therefore pack out to the correct size. I’d rather that than buy the correct size in the shop and then find they are too big after a week. boots that are too big and dont hold your heal in place will cause heal lift and that is a huge cause of arch pain. (imagine standing on tip toes for a whole day!)

Hope some of that may be of some use

Regarding the sizing down comment above, it’s a good point, but it’s not a given in my experience. My trainers are a UK 9 and I’ve had UK 8, 8.5 or 9 boots. It really depends on the model / manufacturer. My current boots are a UK 9, previous to that they were 8.5 and they are the same model boot just a different model year. I also find higher end, stiffer boots tend to pack out less than softer boots. Always buy your boots from a shop with good boot fitters and plenty of choice.

I haven’t read all the thread, but I usually get cramp on the first day or two on holiday. Usually this is when I’m stuck on the lift and all I can do is grimace.

My current boots have boa laces, which means it’s really easy to loosen off if I need to. If I get bad cramps on the lift I just pull the boa thing and they loosen a little which gives me a bit of relief.

Someone mentioned loosening off your boots a bit…I’m fairly strong so can make my boots uncomfortably tight if I get carried away.

I love Boa boots, but it’s very easy to over tighten them, always having to release and re-tighten my lad’s for him.
Dual boa are a big upgrade on single boa, you can tighten the shin part fairly snug, but leave the foot part a little looser.

While I’m way behind current boarding technology, I changed my front straps to Burton Step-Cap types, which both hold your toes down and push your foot backwards. You can wind them up really tight without squashing your toes and also makes sure that your boot is fully back in the binding.

Made a big difference to my comfort and control.

This was after going full-circle through the binding systems – straps were tedious, Flows were nice and quick (but flexible) step-ins were quick (but the boots had pressure points) so I came to the conclusion that 5 extra seconds at the top of the lift was worth the extra control & fun on the way down 🙂

Cheers, Rich

Dual boa are a big upgrade on single boa, you can tighten the shin part fairly snug, but leave the foot part a little looser.

I have dual boas…not sure I’ll go back to laces.

On my last holiday the sole started falling off and I ended up wandering from shop to shop looking for superglue.

Dual Boas here too, and the K2 Autos that were mentioned earlier. Pretty comfy set up.

http://keyaspectscoaching-com.php5.hostingweb.co.uk/?p=4763

An interesting article by a very good coach (I’ve had tuition with Chris) about the use of high backs or more the dependence on them and using your toes to make a heelside turn.

Interesting about boa laces. I avoid them and always prefer laces or Quick pull systems . I find boa systems clumsy and got lots of ‘hotspots’ with them. Also harder to fix when they do break.

I suspect it is very implementation-dependent howsyourdad1, and possibly footshape-dependent too.

You do have to be careful with Boas because it is very easy to be overly enthusiastic, tighten them hard down and completely crush your foot.

But I love the ability to quickly slacken them off at lunch time or for the walk back to the chalet.

Also harder to fix when they do break.

Can’t argue with that. I once ended up hopping round a car park stuck in my boot when the Boa jammed up. In the end I had to cut the wire to get out of it. 😆

These days I always pack a few spare Boa wires with the rest of my kit, though I’ve never needed them since. *touch wood*