Sir! Keir! Starmer!

The squeals about farmers and public school parents is nothing as to

we don’t send out kid to private school, but my wife works in one. The rises are not being borne by the parents but the teachers themselves. My wife was told to expect pay freezes for foreseeable if Labour got in.

The communication this week is being told to expect pay cut and frozen at lower levels. Also to expect significant degradation to their employer’s contributions to their pensions and the school are looking for them to sign up to working x days month for no pay on top of the cuts. Oh and would you mind now working Saturday mornings too(unpaid of course). Furthermore to expect redundancies…

but hey, every kid in the state sector will get iro of £1.30 a year more.

binners

Full Member

Good to see Mandy back.

What a timely reminder. According to your fantasy world this never happened, and the centrists had nothing to do with helping Boris Johnson secure a landslide :

Peter Mandelson: I try to undermine Jeremy Corbyn ‘every single day’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/21/peter-mandelson-i-try-to-undermine-jeremy-corbyn-every-day

Note, “every single day” centrist big beast Peter Mandelson tried to undermine the Leader of Labour Party in the runup to the 2019 general election.

I would say that he and his centrist cohorts were spectacularly successful. After all this is the man who is widely credited with the successful branding of New Labour.

we don’t send out kid to private school, but my wife works in one. The rises are not being borne by the parents but the teachers themselves. My wife was told to expect pay freezes for foreseeable if Labour got in.

The communication this week is being told to expect pay cut and frozen at lower levels. Also to expect significant degradation to their employer’s contributions to their pensions and the school are looking for them to sign up to working x days month for no pay on top of the cuts. Oh and would you mind now working Saturday mornings too(unpaid of course). Furthermore to expect redundancies…

but hey, every kid in the state sector will get iro of £1.30 a year more.

And the owners of the school, are they also taking the ‘pain’?

My wife was told to expect pay freezes for foreseeable if Labour got in.

I refer you to my other comment…

As could any other tax on the company be “passed on”.

Any tax rise can be passed on to staff, and painted as tax on the incomes of workers by people who own companies, and the press.

Of course, they could also be passed on to customers, or clients, or suppliers, or landlords, or shareholders… but if you want workers to be against taxes on companies, this is the game you play… with the bonus that you have a lever to play in pay negotiations.

Nice one Ertnie – its good to have real evidence of the perfidy of the labour right over corbyn.  There is a huge attempt to pretend this never happened.

Mandelson is utterly vile

Well the appointment doesn’t seem to have had a good start :

Trump campaign co-manager calls Lord Peter Mandelson an ‘absolute moron’ as peer is confirmed as Starmer’s new US ambassador

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-campaign-co-manager-calls-lord-peter-mandelson-an-absolute-moron-as-peer-is-confirmed-as-starmers-new-us-ambassador-13277216

I don’t however doubt Mandelson’s ability to stoop in deference and grovel if necessary.

Any tax rise can be passed on to staff

Not necessarily. For example tax on profits arent overly easy to pass to staff although I am sure some would have a good go.

Sorry but trying this line “taxes on companies, this is the game you play” really doesnt work when the tax chosen is Employer NI.

It is tied directly to your salary unlike most other business taxes and so is built into any payrise consideration.

Of course there are exceptions eg partners in LLPs are generally considered self employed so pay lower contributions.  Which is lucky for all those accountants, lawyers and PE partners in the city.

I don’t however doubt Mandelson’s ability to stoop in deference and grovel if necessary.

Given how many of trumps current bootlickers insulted him in the past including Vance (although admittedly he has now disappeared) I cant see it being an issue.

Especially given Mandelsons happiness to deal with dictators and unpleasant strongman leaders.

Good to see Mandy back.

No, it’s not.

For example tax on profits arent overly easy to pass to staff although I am sure some would have a good go

Of course they would. Also, importantly, tax on profit is very easy to avoid or delay… where as taxes based on your PAYE records aren’t.

Employers’ NI contributions is a sound way to tax businesses that is difficult to dodge. Passing it onto employees is what most companies will try and do (while also telling suppliers, customers etc that they need to take it into account when negotiating prices)… but that isn’t a government choice, it is an employer one. Don’t be played.

Good to see Mandy back.

Parody account.

There was a dumb think-tanky lady on Vine today defending  privatisation of water.

This is where we are now.

Centrists and stupid right-wingers who talked so much about pragmatism defending the failure of inefficient water companies. Claiming privatisation wasn’t done properly.

The think-tanky lady’s arguments was it’s literally communism to bring back into public control.

Centrists prefer shit in the water and high bills to water communism.

God help us.

Mandelson recently failed in his bid to become Chancellor of Oxford University, so he needed something else to do.

Being Alumni, I actually got to vote in the Oxford Uni election. William Hague won, from outside the Uni.
There were two competent women running, both heads of Oxford colleges. They finished 3rd and 5th (out of 5, in the 2nd round).

Make of that what you will.

water communism.

Water is the source of all life. Seven tenths of this earth’s surface is water. Why do you realise that 70% of you is water? And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water – to replenish our precious bodily fluids.

We can’t afford to let it fall into commie hands.

Communist Water did a session for Marc Riley on 6 Music last week

Employers’ NI contributions is a sound way to tax businesses that is difficult to dodge.

No its not.  Its very easy to dodge, I gave a good example above which people were recommending should be changed to create an equal playing field.

There are also the other obvious ways to avoid paying taxes based on how much you pay your employees.

As for “Don’t be played.” could you be much more **** patronising? Like when binners does it its a tad irritating given the low level arguments being deployed.

Of course its the businesses choice but thats why you dont let it be their **** choice.  He chose an option which is directed correlated with employee pay. He should have just stuck with employee NI and been honest about it. It would have got some of the employer NI loopholes as well.

To everyone’s moaning about the present Labour Party and saying ‘they’re all the same’, Kemi Badanoch has just nominated Toby Young for a peerage. TOBY ****ING YOUNG!

Toby Young and … Thérèse Coffey. Quality appointments.

So Tory leaders nominate Tory supporters for peerages whilst Labour leaders nominate Labour supporters, is that what makes them “different”?

I don’t expect you to approve of Badenoch’s choice for nomination and I certainly don’t either, but despite your apparent extensive research on Toby Young I very much doubt that Badenoch chose him because of his views on women’s knockers.

Much more likely is that Badenoch chose him because he is an associate editor of the Spectator and the New Statesman named him as the 44th most influential right-wing figure in British politics.

Yes the whole peerage shenanigans is a total farce as highlighted by Toby Young getting a peerage, and I think most reasonably people can see that.

So perhaps you would like to explain why Keir Starmer has broken the pledge he made when he was desperate to become Labour leader to abolish all this bollox?

Do you think it is because voters love all this shite and he doesn’t want to alienate them, or is it because basically he isn’t any different to any other conservative prime minister? Which one do you think it is?

Where the reform process is up to (and where it is going):

House of Lords reform: Government policy and recent developments

Reform? We’ve had plenty of House of Lord’s reforms. Is Starmer going to stop this nonsense which sees the likes of Toby Young getting a peerage?

Do you think voters will be satisfied seeing party leaders lackeys or generous party donors getting peerage rather than people being born into the honour? On balance I think I would rather have someone who doesn’t owe any party leader a favour, or has bought their peerage.

Everyone knows that reform is not the solution and that abolition and its replacement with an elected upper chamber is.

Oh but Starmer will claim that it is unaffordable or too complicated or difficult or some other shite. The only thing that makes it difficult is that he, or maybe Morgan McSweeney, lacks the will to abolish it.

Abolishing the House of Lords and replacing it with an elected chamber would be a piece of piss. Gordon Brown has done most of the work on the project and if an elected Scottish parliament could be set up and running in a couple of years then I don’t see why it would be different for an elected upper chamber in Westminster. They even already have a perfectly  suitable building.

Anyway thanks binners for highlighting how insignificant the difference between Labour and the Tories is on the issue of the House of Lords, and how the whole discredited  farcical situation continues despite the Tories being kicked out of government.

I believe that right at the top of every voters list of concerns is sorting out the House of Lords. Fixing the NHS, education, housing and other trivial matters pale into insignificance next to this most pressing of issues.

Particularly given that politicians of all parties are presently held in such high public esteem that everyone would be very receptive to the members of Westminster dedicating an enormous amount of Parliamentary time to essentially talk about themselves 

No it isn’t at the top of every voters list of concerns, what’s that got to do with it…….the government can’t do more than one thing at a time?

The abolition of the House of Lords and its replacement with an elected upper house will obviously never be at the top of voters list of concerns, there will always be greater concerns, does that mean it should never happen and we are stuck with it for eternity?

Gordon Brown has already done all the work required and the new elected upper house could be up and running as quickly as the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly or the GLA were.

Anyway well done for defending the continued preservation of a medieval institution which you yourself have exposed as farcical and absurd…… Toby Young as a “Lord”?? FFS

Of course if we had a Tory government in power right now you would not be defending the continued existence of this ridiculous institution. Centrist hypocrisy at its finest 🙂

HoL needs to populated based on public votes, with a system that establishes links to all regions. Regional list system seems the approach to take to me, but getting it right, and accepted, is essential. It’ll take time. That doesn’t mean changes can’t be made in the meantime. Note, any new upper chamber based on elections is still likely to be closely tied to “political parties” and their leaders (and so its members)… in fact, IMHO, mitigating the loss of “cross benchers” will be the hardest bit to get right when creating the legislation needed.

There is zero need for a second chamber anyway.  Just abolish it.  Nothing needed to replace it

If abolished, there would need to be other checks and balances on executive power. Remember, we have a system where a party can have complete control of the government and the commons on only a third of the public vote. The upper house could “just be abolished”, but a lot of work would be need to done to make sure the result of that wasn’t less rather than more democratic.

He should have just stuck with employee NI and been honest about it

If the idea was to avoid taxing workers then how would directly taxing workers have worked?

At least this way when scummy employers try to use this to trick their employees into thinking they can’t afford to give pay rises, most employees will be able to get a new job that pays more easily enough.

He’s lost the voters, now he’s losing his MPs. This is where his downfall starts.

Labour MPs dumbfounded by WASPI decision – Neil Duncan-Jordan MP

“the Government has a problem with older people”

We need a government that doesn’t put the wants (and I mean wants, not needs) of older people before everything else. That’s how we got here. If anyone is put into financial difficulty by the state pension changes (and communication of those changes), they should be helped. The same goes for anyone struggling to heat their home. But paying rich pensioners either compensation or winter fuel payments, right now, as schools are literally crumbling, and NHS services have so many people just being held rather than treated… well, Labour MPs need to be working to aim help at the people who need it, not just everyone who’s reached a decent age.

He’s lost the voters, now he’s losing his MPs. This is where his downfall starts.

Yeah, with a majority of a mere 156 seats I bet there are some sleepless nights being had in number 10 about what Neil Duncan-Jordan thinks. Once you’ve lost someone as well known and influential as that, you’re toast!

At least this way when scummy employers try to use this to trick their employees into thinking they can’t afford to give pay rises, most employees will be able to get a new job that pays more easily enough.

On that;

https://www.ft.com/content/8dcadbd2-57a1-4fff-b2e2-9ff2704fe209

And if you ignore the covid rates as the obvious outlier, the. Fastest drop since the financial crisis in ‘09. Prospects are not looking good!

On that;

https://www.ft.com/content/8dcadbd2-57a1-4fff-b2e2-9ff2704fe209

And if you ignore the covid rates as the obvious outlier, the. Fastest drop since the financial crisis in ‘09. Prospects are not looking good!

Businesses can say what they want in that survey. Unemployment is still low compared to the historical average, especially low compared to the tory-led unemployment crises of the 80’s and 90’s.

Vacancies is another useful ONS stat to look at. They have shown some modest falls but are still high overall compared to the historical averages.

So I’d argue the contrary really, there’s rarely been a better time to be looking for a new job.

But paying rich pensioners either compensation or winter fuel payments, right now, as schools are literally crumbling, and NHS services have so many people just being held rather than treated… well, Labour MPs need to be working to aim help at the people who need it, not just everyone who’s reached a decent age.

Not sure so many pensioners are rich. The problem with being a pensioner (I discover) is that you have no power to influence your own situation, short of getting a second job at B&Q, while needing to preserve a cushion of money to make your declining years less uncomfortable in a nursing home where you aren’t sitting around in your own dirty nappy.

Not sure so many pensioners are rich.

Most are not. The state pension is being increased. Those that need more help should get it.

If the idea was to avoid taxing workers then how would directly taxing workers have worked?

Where did I say that?

I said just be honest about it. Employer NI tax is effectively the same as Employee NI tax but just hidden behind smoke and mirrors.

Well aside from those partners who will be happy that their cushy best of both worlds Private Limited Partnerships stay the same. I am sure none of the new “business” donations which flowed to labour had that in mind.

Not sure so many pensioners are rich.

One in four have a household wealth over £1,000,000

There are plenty of poor ones, but also millions of rich ones.

One in four have a household wealth over £1,000,000
There are plenty of poor ones, but also millions of rich ones.

I find that hard to believe, I must know 50+ pensioners, only two are what I would term well off. Where is that figure from?

It includes that value of the house. I’d say a significant proportion of my friends and acquaintances fall into that category, probably more than a quarter. Probably quite a few of them don’t realise it though.

I find that hard to believe, I must know 50+ pensioners, only two are what I would term well off. Where is that figure from?

It’s ONS figures. There is a significant element of interpretation but it’s reasonable to put it between 22 and 27%

One in four have a household wealth over £1,000,000

There are plenty of poor ones, but also millions of rich ones.

Seems a lot at face value, but what they don’t have is earning potential and what they do have is threat of medical/care bills. That money has to last their whole lives, and is not there waiting to be taxed (again) to fund some government spending spree.

There is zero need for a second chamber anyway.  Just abolish it.  Nothing needed to replace it

You’ll need some sort of organisation that has the ability to properly scrutinise proposed legislation both away from the public (ie press glare) and overt political influence and make suggestions and amendments, and you’ll need an organisation that can consider public reporting and make recommendations and influence the commons.

TBH, the Lords may not be the most representative body that ever there was, but that’s supposed to be the Commons, and they make enough **** stupid decisions more than occasionally enough to make most sane people think that they’re either dangerously incompetent or represent an actual threat to the public health