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whatnobeer - Member
Its not Scotland fault that we get free uni education yet the English have to pay £9000 a year, that was CmD and his cronies who brought that in, and we certainly didnt vote for him.
OOI - whatnobeer, do you know how much a Scottish Uni receives for each student. Is it the same as in the rest of the UK? Is the revenue to the Uni the same irrespective of whether its the Scottish state (for want of a better word) paying or an English parent?
Or is it like the case of US students where the revenue (I think?) is considerably more. In which case will the law of unintended consequences mean that some Scots will be disadvantaged as Uni's under revenue pressure decide to allocate more places to higher revenue generating students? There was an article to this effect in the Guardian re Edinburgh Uni. Imagine if you are a AAA student from a Scottish school and you lose a place to an English student with ABB simply because he will pay more. I assume this cannot happen, but can you confirm?
Am I right in thinking that Scotland has 25% of Europe's wind and tidal resource?
Sure that was the number.
If so they are welcome to keep them.
rio - 85+ % of the vote in Scotland goes to leftish parties. tories are an irrelevance on low teens last time and heading for single figures.
But only one in five would want to go it alone if it meant a £500 a year reduction in living standards.
I'm sure there's something about Scots and thrift in that 😀
Am I right in thinking that Scotland has 25% of Europe's wind and tidal resource?
You'd have to be monumentally brave/stupid to base an economy around that.
So what happens when Abu-DabiShetland decides it would rather be independant seeing as you've decided the oil's being divided up geographicaly rather than demographicaly?
<yawn> so where's this movement for Shetland Independance then, other than 1 English diddy claiming independance for himself and who is seen as bit of an embarassment by the rest of the islanders?
tories are an irrelevance
As Radio Scotland are so fond of mentioning, there are more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs
Who pays for all the new Scottish/ currently UK civil servants' pensions? And all the other state pensions for that matter?
Works for Russia. Pay up or the lights are going out. 8)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/sep/12/scottish-universities-uk-students-fees
Ah, found the article. Apparently not - interesting to see how this pans out. Edinburgh strongly rumoured to discriminate the other way at the moment. I wonder if this will change?
£4k difference in revenue to the Uni if I understand the article correctly
You'd have to be monumentally brave/stupid to base an economy around that.
Maybe, but it can't be much worse in the long run than basing your entire economy around tertiary industries as the UK does now.
How's Scotland going to fair in the battle for Rockall without any warships?
[hypothetical] What if westminster were to support and fund a shetland independence movement? Increase the living standards of the isles massively in exchange for preferencial oil prices[/hypothetical]
Am I right in thinking that Scotland has 25% of Europe's wind and tidal resource?
I very much doubt it. It's damned windy in lots of places (Ireland being a good example), and pretty much anywhere with a coastline and reasonably shallow sea bed could host a tidal lagoon.
Maybe, but it can't be much worse in the long run than basing your entire economy around tertiary industries as the UK does now.
Touche!
Though I think we know who we can blame for that....
Zokes - doubt all you want, Its nothing to do with tidal lagoons - its turbines. Scotland has a huge potential for alternative energy and it is vastly greater than most countries
Am I right in thinking that Scotland has 25% of Europe's wind and tidal resource?
I can't even begin to understand what that could possibly mean.
rio - 85+ % of the vote in Scotland goes to leftish parties. tories are an irrelevance on low teens last time and heading for single figures.
I would expect all Westminster parties to be an irrelevance in an independent Scotland. The political makeup would change. It would be unwise to assume it would all go Salmonds way.
People in Scotland people get more spent on them than those in England - £10k v £8.5k? How would Scotland get on without the oil money? Will they come begging to England, once the oil's mostly gone, like they did before?
Rio - I suspect you are right to some extent and a mature independent Scotland the SNP would tend to split.
However the consensus is well to the left of England and has been for 50 years. I am sure it would continue to be so.
Will they come begging to England, once the oil's mostly gone, like they did before?
Scotland ran out of oil before? Did someone accidentally turn the tap off?
I think that refers to the scottish bankruptcy that led to the 1703 Act of Union.
However the consensus is well to the left of England and has been for 50 years. I am sure it would continue to be so.
Even when they have to start picking the whole tab up for the lifestyle they currently enjoy?
Scotland ran out of oil before? Did someone accidentally turn the tap off?
Last time they had a financial crisis....
Well, in that case I'm sure that England will take us back like the abused spouses that they are. You just can't say no when we make those puppy dog eyes can you?
Well if independence forces the English Labour Party to take a large and permananent step to the right I will be delighted. I may even vote for them.
[quote> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/sep/12/scottish-universities-uk-students-fees
Ah, found the article. Apparently not - interesting to see how this pans out. Edinburgh strongly rumoured to discriminate the other way at the moment. I wonder if this will change?
£4k difference in revenue to the Uni if I understand the article correctly This is unsustainable IMO / E and will change in the next few years. The 3 or 4 top drawer Scottish universities won't (and shouldn't) stand for this level of under-funding - they have a powerful voice and will be on the right side of the argument. Independence would be one solution, because then you can have the free education properly paid for by the copious Scottish tax revenues.
More likely, independence gets booted into the weeds for the next few generations and the Scottish education model edges toward the English fee-paying one.
Shame really as I strongly support 'free' education, as long as we're, collectively, prepared to pay for it. Free education on the cheap is a recipe for long term decline. Guess that's another thread.
elzorillo - scotlands economy is in surplus and has been for 4 of the last 5 years. Its perfectly affordable especially given the savings that would accrue on such things as no more trident, no foundation hospitals, no privatisation of the NHS, no foreign military adventurism. Plus an independent Scotland would be able to set economic policy to suit Scotland
The UK governments own figures show Scotland has having a deficit less per head of population than the UK as a whole and there are significant flaws in those numbers that exaggerate the deficit.
The cash flows from Scotland to England.
Search out Druids posts on this for a nice summary
mudshark - Member
Will they come begging to England, once the oil's mostly gone, like they did before?
Sell their body parts perhaps?
Turn Glasgow into fresh farm fish ponds?
Produce more Salmon(d) that is consider the best fish (spin it) in the world and nothing but the best unlike you lot in the South eating fresh mackerel shite etc from the sea?
Generate super dooper world bestest biggest turbine wind power?
Be the world greenest country with the entire population living on renewable energy?
Yes, the best of the best and the greenest of the green. They are on top of the world.
Whiskey shots for all every Saturday night.
proof?The cash flows from Scotland to England.
Indeed Gary - but it will be interesting to watch. In the meantime, I wish some English Uni's would look at the 4 year Masters course with a broader first two years. Such an excellent "education".
si = search out druidhs posts on it.
Zokes - doubt all you want, Its nothing to do with tidal lagoons - its turbines. Scotland has a huge potential for alternative energy and it is vastly greater than most countries
And just how will it export all this? Transmission losses stack up pretty fast over those distances...
There are a lot more places in Europe than are currently utilised capable of generating renewable energy from one source or another. It would be good to see your definitive research that takes this into consideration.
That and the fact that if worst comes to worst (as it probably will, soon enough), there's a lot of coal down there too...
Plus an independent Scotland would be able to set economic policy to suit Scotland
Not really, you either want to stick with GBP, in which case Westminster still has a big say, or the Euro, in which case Germany does. I think we've seen what happens to smaller nations under that scenario....
Whiskey shots for all every Saturday night.
Imported from Ireland?!
Take it the speech marks mean you don't rate it. I was an academic at Edinburgh up to recently and thought the degree structure was pretty poor in that respect. 5 year degree course for most of our Masters students with the first year being a wide-ranging study of bolloxology. Students could enter direct into the 2nd year if they were good though.Indeed Gary - but it will be interesting to watch. In the meantime, I wish some English Uni's would look at the 4 year Masters course with a broader first two years. Such an excellent "education".
mudshark - MemberWhiskey shots for all every Saturday night.
Imported from Ireland?!
How dare you!
How dare you for degrading the Bestest whiskey country in the world!
The whiskey in Scotland is the bestest of the bestest and nothing like the shite everyone produce all over the world.
Without whiskey the world will stop spinning and wars will start and starvation will increase all over ...
Whiskey is the blood of the world.
😆
p/s: very very small invisible print ... ingredients might come from Ireland or other part of the world and the whiskey producers might be owned by multinationals ...
chewkw
Funny, I always thought the Scottish were famous for whisky.
The Irish are however undeniably very good at whiskey
HTH
On a far more important note, will the Scottish tennis player Andy Murray now lose to Djokovic or will the British tennis player Andy Murray now go on to win the Aussie Open? 😉
Well done that man - and a couple of relatively easy matches/walk overs. Can he tame the Djok?
Gary - on the contrary, I rate it very highly. I learned more in my second year (still broad) than in the rest of the other three years. My " " were meant to indicate education in its proper sense. I think English Unis could learn a lot from Scottish ones.
First year was too easy though to be frank!
Can he tame the Djok?
Probably not, but it'll be good to think so for a while before he lets us down in the same inevitable Henmanesque way that always seems to happen in tennis
zokes - Memberchewkw
Funny, I always thought the Scottish were famous for whisky.
The Irish are however undeniably very good at whiskey
HTH
Both are very good but then those from Scotland have to insist on being the bestest because they say so. Since they are the best nothing can compare to them ...
zokes - Member
Plus an independent Scotland would be able to set economic policy to suit Scotland
Not really, you either want to stick with GBP, in which case Westminster still has a big say, or the Euro, in which case Germany does. I think we've seen what happens to smaller nations under that scenario....
Hate to say it but this is probably the most sensible post thus far. Other than mine obviously.
Both are very good but then those from Scotland have to insists on being the bestest because they say so. Since they are the best nothing can compare to them ...
Chewkew - the clue's in the 'e' 😉
The Scottish make whisky. The Irish make whisk[u]e[/u]y.
You wanted everyone to drink the latter
Since they are the best nothing can compare to them ...
Don't be too complacent....
[img] 
[/img]
Wasn't Suntory voted the world's best whisky recently? I think I remember reading that somewhere.
Suntory. That's made where? Is it a Speyside??
zokes - MemberChewkew - the clue's in the 'e'
The Scottish make whisky. The Irish make whiskey
LOL! Did not notice that ...
D'oh! I better start hoarding them (whisky) now as I fear them banning me for blasphemy of the bestest drink in the world and sending hitman over the border.
I think that refers to the scottish bankruptcy that led to the 1703 Act of Union.
Indeed. I wonder how much the bailout, with 300 years of interest would be?
Well, as it's finally got a lot cheerier in here, I'd better finish my Australian dram and hit the sack!
G'night
[url= http://www.spirosbottleshops.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/267x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/H/e/HellyersRoadpeated.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.spirosbottleshops.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/267x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/H/e/HellyersRoadpeated.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
I'm loving the[i] "Scots live on handouts from England"[/i] guff that gets bandied about. Either you've never heard the phrase [i]"people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"[/i], or else you're living in denial about your own situation.
It might have escaped people's attention, but the whole of the UK is living beyond its means at the present time. Interestingly, the Beeb had some figures the other week which broke down which areas were most heavily subsidised. Interestingly enough, the most heavily subsidised area of the UK was London, population slightly over 5M, so before you get yourself tied up in knots worrying about the flow of money northwards, you might want to consider how everybody north of Watford is getting shafted by your capital city.
Likewise, people who mock the idea of Scotland focusing on the oil industry might want to pause and reflect on the heavy emphasis placed on the financial sector, which is basically what rUK would be relying on to keep it going. In case anyone had forgotten, it's screwed, and only likely to get worse. That of course is the real legacy of Thatcherism, an adventure in social engineering that was funded by the proceeds from Scotland's oil, the true value of which was expressed in the McCrone report and deliberately hidden from the Scots population by successive governments until 2005.
that was funded by the proceeds from Scotland's oil
It's the UKs oil.
DJ - lighten up and have a dram - all that anger isn't good you know.
As you said, either way we're screwed, so have a sip of one of Scotland's better inventions and be happy!
That of course is the real legacy of Thatcherism, an adventure in social engineering that was funded by the proceeds from Scotland's oil, the true value of which was expressed in the McCrone report and deliberately hidden from the Scots population by successive governments until 2005.
It's not Scotland's oil - it's Britain's oil. Unless you think that RBS's debt is Scotland's debt?
It's not Scotland's oil - it's Britain's oil. Unless you think that RBS's debt is Scotland's debt?
Really? You want to do this again?
I'm a Southern Irelander whose independence was gained by a very nasty war for independence, an even nastier civil war and partition that has resulted in too much pain and loss and poisoned relations between an awful lot of people for generations. This Irish model is pretty much the norm for these things.
So however much money or oil has to be handed over or debt negotiated blah blah blah be thankful and take pride in the fact it will be a lot cheaper and more importantly, pain free, than the usual route.
Consultation document just released on-line by the Scottish Government:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/01/1006
Interesting that they propose keeping the Queen as Head of State.
Relax D_J, you are being overly sensitive again. Plus you may need to relax before looking at the Riaghaltas na h-alba stat's on the contribution of Financial Services to the Scottish economy 😉
Interesting that they propose keeping the Queen as Head of State.
She's already got digs in Edinburgh, and a wee 'fixer upper' up on Deeside, so it'll be cheaper than getting someone new in.
Really? You want to do this again?
If you like. We could once again have a go at explaining "you can't have it both ways".
The simple fact is that who gets what is a matter of negotiation, not entitlement.
ransos - MemberI think that refers to the scottish bankruptcy that led to the 1703 Act of Union.
Indeed. I wonder how much the bailout, with 300 years of interest would be?
Posted 15 minutes ago # Report-Post
Go and google "parcel of rogues" because you obviously know nothing about the act of union.
Got to say zokes, hurtmore etc are all trying to pretend that it doesn't matter to them, but have lot of increasingly far-fetched reasons why it couldn't/shouldn't.I have asked you this before when you were making an increasingly hysterical case for independence for the Shetlands, but why do you care if Scotland becomes independent?
Zokes did make good point about choice of two evils,but why do you think a fedral German master would be any worse than the English one? And to this stuff about us being spoilt by English subsidies...A new high speed link from London to Brum...at the same time it is announced that the A9 is not going to be dualled till at least 2025,by which time another 200 people will have died on it. It would cost less than that increasingly white-elephantesque stadium that we are all getting to contribute money to.
I love how out of all the previous post about our current economic situation, the trigger that people respond to is [i]"Scotland's oil"[/i].
Under the arrangements post the 1979 referendum, the income generated by the oil did indeed flow into the Exchequer, but my point was more about the broader situation that we all face. My concern is that people seem to be pretending that Scotland is somehow the sick relative of a healthy England, when in fact most of the UK is being bled to sustain London and the south east. It's been set up that way since the early 80s, and the current government is set on continuing that arrangement. Does anyone actually believe for a minute that David Cameron actually cares about the Union, other than as a convenient cash machine for his paymasters in the City.
My desire for an independent Scotland is because I can't see any other way of escaping the sickness at the heart of the UK economy, even if it means I'm financially less well off for a good few years to come.
Go and google "parcel of rogues" because you obviously know nothing about the act of union.
I know that England bailed Scotland out because Scotland was incapable of administering its own finances. Can we have it back please?
Ransos
ditch_jockey - MemberMcBoo - seriously, do you have some kind of cognitive impairment that prevents you from processing the information that is presented to you time and time again? RBS currently has UK government as its majority shareholder as a consequence of the 'bailout' - The money borrowed to buy the shares, and the shares themselves are part of the overall assets and liabilities of the UK as a whole, and the SNP independence proposals accept that Scotland should shoulder a proportion of the liabilities as part of the arrangements.
Conflating the RBS and oil revenues just adds to the obfuscation, whether it's being done deliberately to cause mischief or because people simply can't think clearly.
Ransos - the oil is in Scottish territorial waters as defined in international law.
Scotladn would take its 8% of the UK debt despite this debt being generated only in England and not in Scotland
TJ - North Sea oil was developed and produced because of the UK government, not Scotland. Exactly the same logic applies.
Ransos - the oil is in Scottish territorial waters as defined in international law.Scotladn would take its 8% of the UK debt despite this debt being generated only in England and not in Scotland
1. There are no Scottish territorial waters, only UK ones.
2. UK debt was generated in the UK.
That's why I say that it's all about negotiation.
Wasn't Suntory voted the world's best whisky recently? I think I remember reading that somewhere
I've nothing to add to this debate politically, but I couldn't let the above statement go unchallenged. Suntory? A giraffe is what you're having, I think. I'd honestly rather drink Bells (and it takes something to make me say that).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-15423862
Current 'everyday' fave is Talisker 57 North - even at £50 a bottle it's fantastic value, as it's taken me a year to get through it.
North Sea oil was developed and produced because of the UK government, not Scotland. Exactly the same logic applies.
The North Sea was developed and produced by oil companies. The UK government sold the blocks and then taxed the produce. Pretty good deal for the UK taxpayer wouldn't you say?
Duckman - may I politely suggest that you re-read my posts to see what I have and, more importantly, have not said about Scottish Independence. Plus it is extraordinarily arrogant of anyone to assume that a potential break up of the Union is only a matter for the residents of Scotland. This issue matters to everyone in the Union, so please excuse me if I take an interest!
D_J - at least that's an honest statement. As for CmD bleeding the rest of the UK dry, makes you wonder how any of the politicians are explaining the welfare cuts mess to poor people in the Midlands and the North!
Ransos - because of the separate legal system in Scotland when the north sea oil fields were starting to be developed they were split into Scottish, English and Norwegian territory.
There are no UK oil fields unless you consider the English and Scottish ones combined to be UK
There are no UK oil fields unless you consider the English and Scottish ones combined to be UK
I do. England and Scotland are not separate nations.
I've nothing to add to this debate politically, but I couldn't let the above statement go unchallenged. Suntory? A giraffe is what you're having, I think. I'd honestly rather drink Bells (and it takes something to make me say that).http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-15423862
'Not only did Nikka's Yoichi 1987 vintage beat dozens of other labels to claim the single malt title at last year's world whisky awards - in Glasgow of all places - its rival distiller, Suntory, won the best blended whisky award with its 30-year-old Hibiki.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/21/japan-whisky-industry
This issue matters to everyone in the Union, so please excuse me if I take an interest!
Sarkozy and merkel to the forum please,
Is this all unions or just the ones you like?
Self determination trum,ps the union each time....if you disagree imagine letting Europe decide if you can leave or they got top force you into the Euro ...still seem fair?
I do. England and Scotland are not separate [b]nations[/b]
Home [b]nations[/b] rugby and International sports just became a whole lot more confusing
best blended whisky
Ha ha ha ha ha. Contradiction in terms.
JY - I've told you before about the smiley button. 😉
I have also stated my view on self determination and if that was it, then fair enough. But off course, that is not quite what is on offer here, is it? So JY, you know me, just interested in the specifics and debunking pompous or incomplete arguments, especially from slimey politicians.
Duckman - may I politely suggest that you re-read my posts to see what I have and, more importantly, have not said about Scottish Independence. Plus it is extraordinarily arrogant of anyone to assume that a potential break up of the Union is only a matter for the residents of Scotland. This issue matters to everyone in the Union, so please excuse me if I take an interest!
But are we not subsidy rich spongers? And it is Scottish independence that is to be voted on? ie If we should want to leave the union we were forced into,not if England and Wales want to keep us.So why should the English have a say. The arrogance of the suggestion that you should get to decide the future of Scotland is a rallying call for the nationalist movement.Free from the burden of ScotlandEngland would apparantly be a land of high-speed rail links and honey,according to Zokes (who would appear to be in OZ)
Has anybody ever seen Ransos and Kerasae in the same room at the same time? just asking like 🙄
Plus it is extraordinarily arrogant of anyone to assume that a potential break up of the Union is only a matter for the residents of Scotland.
It's just like asking the wife for permission to divorce her, isn't it? 😛
on windows IE 6 or something at work it has no smilleys as an option 😉
I can remeber that one and :rolls:
and 😆
Done to death surely by now]]England inteferring can only harm the union vote and that is what it will be seen as as that is what it is; it is not helpful
I think narrow win fo rth eunion , huge win for devo max if allwoed [ I dont thinkl the SNP will do anything other than ask this tbh.
The same rules, same referee line is weak even for a soundbite
Home nations rugby and International sports just became a whole lot more confusing
They already are - e.g. GB team for the olympics.
For the purpose of international conventions, England and Scotland are not separate countries. For example, Scotland cannot join the UN.
If we should want to leave the union we were forced into,not if England and Wales want to keep us.So why should the English have a say
Scotland was "forced" into the union because of its own financial mismanagement. But I agree - independence should be a decision for Scotland alone.
Scotland was "forced" into the union because of its own financial mismanagement.
Points and laughs at ransos.