Salmond on Newsnight

Create a new union, who would want to join that, pmsl.

Seriously TJ – what is all the reading from over the years? Can you point me in the right direction – there cant be that much as the issues affecting the credit rating have all changed recently. Links to any historic stuff would be helpful but more recent analysis would be better. Thanks in advance.

Article 4 of the VCLT

…the Convention applies only to treaties which are concluded by States after the entry into force of the present Convention with regard to such States.

who’s the almighty authority stating that the right electorate is the “people of Scotland”

Nice to see the discussion still rolling along. I thought I’d look back in while I wait for the good lady to prepare my evening meal – Sea Bass tonight, yummy!

Stevewhyte – just a musing on a theoretical process nothing more. I was just wondering what the mechanisms were for self-determination for the various Nations in the Union and how one Nation’s decision could affect the others.

Personally i have no great feelings either way on Scottish Independence.

muddydwarf – Member
So in other words, the rest of the UK can’t kick Scotland out, but they can withdraw from the Union and create a new Union without Scotland whether Scotland wanted that or not?

That’s what i wanted to know. The problem you have is that there is nowhere for such a discussion to take place, nowhere to pass any legislation. You’d need to first of all create an English Parliament. (Not that I’m saying that’s a bad idea).

Well Druidh, i would imagine that in the event of Scottish Independence things would change in England and Wales and NI in regards to their relationship with each other so why not?

Actually, if the Westminster Parliament (theoretical musing only here) were to ask the people of the UK if they wanted to dissolve the Union and then in due process create a new Union of E/W/NI and the electorate said yes, how would Scotland (assuming again that Scotland had voted to remain in the UK) be legally able to prevent that?

Just musing here as i don’t understand the processes involved.

Out of curiosity, as a non-eu foreign national, permanently resident in the UK, how would this potentially affect my right to come live and work in Scotland?

thm – another one for you
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9008246/An-independent-Scotland-would-struggle-for-AAA-rating.html

On muddy dwarfs line of questioning; can the scots legally select devo max without the support of the UK?
Could the UK prevent this from happening?
Just seen on the news that the Spanish might well veto the scots joining the EU anyway!
Open to anyone but stevewhyte.

muddydwarf – Indeed. I’m actually rather surprised that there (to my view) has been little analysis of the impact of SI on NI and Wales.

As regards a UK-wide referendum, I don’t see why Westminster could legislate for such a thing. But the question would be rather difficult to put in order to cover all the potential options. For instance, you’d have to ask if each nation wanted it’s own independence or to join a new 3-way union.

Wrecker – i was of the understanding that Westminster has reserved the powers needed to change the Constitution/Devolution process, so if that is correct it may be that Scotland could (if she acheived the aim of the DevoMax option in the referendum) vote for extended devo powers and Westminster refuse… (maybe)

Thanks Druidh – I had seen that, but if I get accused of posting RW propganda from the IFS and the New Statesmen ( :wink:) it seemed a little too much to post the Torygraph.

The trouble is this mostly goes back to one guys work which also quotes historic data from Oxford. Need some more contemporary analysis. Hopefully, your mate will give us the links.

BTW – have you thought about a new lucrative career? Sell yourself to the Devil – GS or AS? They both probably need your help!! 😉

Druidh – i would imagine that is exactly how it would go. The Assemblies in Wales and NI could be asked to put the questions to the Nations and Westminster English MP’s to vote on asking the question to England. Assuming each Nation voted to create a new Union i wonder how it would be possible to create one?

wrecker – Member
On muddy dwarfs line of questioning; can the scots legally select devo max without the support of the UK?

TBH – I don’t see how, but then it’s not that much different from the current Devolution. There would have to be a concrete set of proposals, agreed at Westminster, to vote upon.

Could the UK prevent this from happening?

I reckon so.

Just seen on the news that the Spanish might well veto the scots joining the EU anyway!

Complete bollocks. That’s already been dismissed by the Spanish Government directly.

The Spanish Foreign Minister gave an assurance that “in no instance” had the Spanish government expressed “any disquiet” to the British government over the question of Scottish independence. He stated that the referendum in Scotland is an internal matter for the United Kingdom which would be resolved “in accordance with British constitutional norms, which have nothing to do with Spanish constitutional norms”.

thm – I don’t think there’s any doubt about the way I’ll cast my vote in the referendum. However, I’m trying (desperately) to remain as impartial in these threads as I can be 🙂

Anyway – teatime for me. No Haggis tonight (can’t eat a full one on my own) but i’ll have some Jura Prophecy later 🙂

muddydwarf – Member
and Westminster English MP’s to vote on asking the question to England.

And therein lies the problem. There is no mechanism for an English-only vote in the UK parliament.

Just seen on the news that the Spanish might well veto the scots joining the EU anyway!

They might. They might also suggest that as the country admitted to the EU was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and as that country might or might not exist then we’re all out. Or that Scotland always was in the EU, it’s just chopping out a layer of unnecessary (and to be fair, incompetent at present) management and reporting direct.

I don’t know – and I suspect neither do they.

Edit – too slow. It appears they have (wisely) decided not to have an opinion.

At the moment Druidh, things may change in regards to the West Lothian Question and related matters. If Cameron is willing to change the law so that any Scots referendum is legally binding, then it is theoretically possible to change the rules so that English MP’s can vote to ask their electorate a question – or is there a block to this?

(i AM going for food!)

Complete bollocks. That’s already been dismissed by the Spanish Government directly.

Possibly, but it was just reported on the news with some Spanish politician saying quite clearly that they may well have a problem with it and would consider vetoing a Scottish application. This was due to fears of a breakaway by the basques.

vinnyeh – Member
Out of curiosity, as a non-eu foreign national, permanently resident in the UK, how would this potentially affect my right to come live and work in Scotland?

I’m guessing that it wouldn’t. I can’t see why Scotland would want to bar you from taking up residency. In general, this and previous Scottish Governments have been much more positive about immigration than their UK equivalents. of course, this might be a problem for rUK depending on what level of border control was put in place post-independence.

Ahhh… the West Lothian Question. A problem thrown up by a lack of devolution for England.

Going into the depths of time is not really a worthwhile pursuit, however it is a fundamental tenet of international law that treaties cannot be freely revoked, so your initial premise was wrong and that is why I posted. I don’t have an axe to grind on this issue (and when I do I rarely do on here because it is a futile pursuit).

What the state of international law was and indeed whether it existed in the 18th Century, I have no idea and don’t plan to look up, obviously wars were more frequent so breach of treaties was often dealt with militarily. My instinct is that international lawyers would follow the principles of the Vienna Convention, even if its provision do not theoretically apply.

It seems that the Spanish don’t recognise Kosovo for the same reasons
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spain-could-wield-veto-over-scotlands-eu-membership-6292846.html

wrecker – un-named Whitehall “sources” & Spanish “officials”, or a direct statement from the Spanish Foreign Minister. I’ll let you decide how much weight to assign to each report.

If Cameron is willing to change the law so that any Scots referendum is legally binding,

he does not make laws parliament oes and it is debatable as to whether scotland can do this without the UK’s say so. Perosnally I think it would be impossobe for them to ignore the vote irrespective of the legality…are they really going to ignore a vote for devolution by just saying no you dont have the right to ask so the answer is irreleavnt? Just cant see it personally.

then it is theoretically possible to change the rules so that English MP’s can vote to ask their electorate a question – or is there a block to this?

Apparently scotland would need to decide this and select the question 😉

Hmmmm, newsnetscotland or the independent. Choices, choices 😀

As this will effect the rest of the Union as well as Scotland, why can’t we all have a vote, considering the potential risks and implications? And if not, perhaps England/Wales can have an unofficial referendum, and if the answer is no, Westminster has to take this into account in negotiations?

🙄

Go back and start reading the thread from the top 😛

And start reading about WW2 and the English Navy? No thanks 😉

😆

And start reading about WW2 and the English Navy? No thanks

Please do go back and read again.. maybe then the pedantic and completely incorrect drivel can stop.

I said ‘historically‘ and ‘primarily the English navy’ has protected this islands coastal waters. For your information, history didn’t start with Mel Gibson. The English navy had existed in various forms for at least 800 years before the union between England and scotland resulting in the renaming to the royal navy.

THAT is what I meant, and that is what I wrote.

elzorillo – Member
I said ‘historically’ and ‘primarily the English navy’ has protected this islands coastal waters. The English navy had existed in various forms for at least 800 years before the union between England and scotland resulting in the renaming to the royal navy.

They didn’t do a very good job in 1066.

Junkyard – Member
…it is debatable as to whether scotland can do this without the UK’s say so. Perosnally I think it would be impossobe for them to ignore the vote irrespective of the legality…are they really going to ignore a vote for devolution by just saying no you dont have the right to ask so the answer is irreleavnt? Just cant see it personally.

OK JY – take that idea to its logical conclusion (and outside the current debate) and where does that leave you? Not a pleasant place I would think.

Druidh – good for you for remaining impartial. More interesting that way!!

elzorillo – Member
For your information, history didn’t start with Mel Gibson.

Fantastic – now we get to talk about the Brits being the people (well one of the peoples) who inhabited these islands before the English arrived. 🙄

Technically correct – but not helpful in any constructive debate. Oh wait a minute “constructive debate”… 😕

People have a right of self-determination, whether I support the union or not.

And can the “you’ll never survive without us” brigade try to sound a little less like jilted lovers – it’s not helping your case (a case that I don’t necessarily disagree with). At the moment you mainly sound angry that your being rejected.

Out of curiosity, as a non-eu foreign national, permanently resident in the UK, how would this potentially affect my right to come live and work in Scotland?

I would imagine the scenario would be that if you lived in Scotland, your visa would be converted to a Scottish one in a few months (again – nothing unusual in this – been through it myself with other countries), or if you lived in England, it would remain as a “British” one.

Out of curiosity, as a non-eu foreign national, permanently resident in the UK, how would this potentially affect my right to come live and work in Scotland?

You will be put to hard labour then ask to kiss the tail of the fish …

Proclaim Scotland as the greatest land on earth and Scots are better than you or the land where you were born.

Whisky is your holy water …

😆

this might be a problem for rUK depending on what level of border control was put in place post-independence.

There would have to be a common visa area – it would be impossible to police (for both sides) otherwise anyway.

I was thinking of problems arising from Schengen if Scotland was in the Schengen area and rUK not. All new entrants to the EU are obliged to sign up for Schengen, so either Scotland is not a “new” entrant and it doesn’t apply, Scotland gets an exemption, or England has to put up some form of border control