Road wheels… what to do..?

@GT1972.

Wow!, thanks for that, that’s great 🙂
I didn’t post a budget as the sky cold be the limit, but for a mental safety valve which kicks-in and reminds me that I don’t know enough about wheels to blow big money on them.
Actually I’m not familiar with about 80% of the brands you mention, so I’ll do some research, thanks.

I’m afraid I am one of those who hasn’t ever ridden on tubs and would not do so, for the issues related to punctures. Going on now to jinx myself, I very rarely puncture when most of the folk I sometimes ride with are always puncturing.
Actually, I know very little about tubs, like if you puncture, whether thats a new tyre or whether one repairs them, somehow.
More to learn, for me.
Cheers.

Actually, I know very little about tubs, like if you puncture, whether thats a new tyre or whether one repairs them, somehow.

This is the reason why the mantra still seems to be ‘tubs for racing, clinchers for everything else’ and perhaps rightly so.

Forgive me if I end up being a little patronising, but basically a tub is a tyre with an inner tube sewn inside it, i.e. the tyre carcass is laid flat, the inner tube laid inside and the sides wrapper around it and sewn up the middle.

High quality tubs tend to use latex inner tubes. It’s one of the reasons they ‘roll better’, i.e. there is less rolling resistance, and also why they might be a little more resistant to punctures.

But you can still puncture and when you do, while out on a ride, you’ve got two options.

1) take the punctured tub off and put a new one on at the road side. This is how everyone used to do it back in the day (and plenty of people lived with tubs as their everyday wheel, like my dad). You can fold a spare tube up pretty well and strap it under your saddle.

The downside is that, whether you’re using glue or tape, without additional adhesive, the new tub isn’t going to be quite as firmly stuck on. When you corner a tub that’s not properly adhered, it can roll off and you will crash. The upside is that you can still ride a flat tub quite readily.

There are a few people who can repair punctured tubs. It means unstiching the carcass and either replacing the tube (you can’t repair latex tubes) or fixing it as you would otherwise. It costs around £15 to have that done, not including the cost of a new latex tube (I vividly remember my dad sat at home with his (big) needle and (thick) thread mending his tubs.

2) You fill the punctured tub with Vittoria Pitstop which seals the puncture, inflates the tyre and you carry on. That stuff is supposed to be good for up to three months but I guess you’d want to change the tub pretty soon after having done that.

Now as I said earlier, I personally have yet to use that as a solution (no pun intended) so I am really hoping that it does work as well as everyone has told me it does.

However well it works though, I get the impression (from speaking to the old boy who was famous for being the ‘go to’ guy for tub repair – I think he might have died recently) that once you’ve spunked a load of that stuff into the tub, it’s then beyond being repairable. I don’t know whether that’s because some of the material leaks into the carcass and ruins it or what.

There is no doubt that having explained all that, you’ll be left thinking ‘why would anyone bother’? The simple answer is because they are better/faster etc (athough that is being challenged currently as well).

The principle reason why they are faster is because the best quality tubs, typically have a much higher thread count and the carcass is not ‘vulcanised’, the rubber tread is glued on to the surface. That makes the whole thing more supple, which reduces rolling resistance and makes for a much comfier ride.

A tubular rim is also a good deal lighter than a clincher. Look at the Enve range and there is around a 10-15% weight difference on a like for like basis for just the weel. The lightest tubs are also up to 20% lighter than the lightest tyre/tube combo’s. They are also quite a bit more expensive though; rrp on a Vittoria Corsa CX is £80 (although you can buy them for £55 quite readily).

So that’s why people say tubs for racing etc etc. They are ‘better’ where better is equal to faster.

Then you get the research that suggest that clinchers are actually more aerodynamic and that the reason Tony Martin used them to win the world TT championships a few years back was because of this…..

I’m having a set of Ambrosio Nemesis tubular rims built onto Dura Ace 9000 hubs, with Spaim Race spokes (equivalent to DT Comps).

That’ll be a lovely set of wheels 🙂

I have a puncture on a tub (which hasn’t happened yet in about 1000 miles of riding – I’ve heard from other experienced wheels builders that you just don’t puncture as much on tubs anyway. We will see).

That does seem to be the case. I’ve a fair few training and racing miles on the TT bike with tubs on. Carry a can of pitstop when training but am getting quite blasé about it. Though that is pretty much all on sunny day decent roads.

I’ll stick with open tubulars and latex tubes for training on the road bike though.

Edit…

As for sensible but nice wheels – top of the list is the Dura Ace C35 – it’s at the very top end of sensible but at £1000 (which is 20% off list but they can be had for this), they are brilliant.

If I was getting something like this it’d be for racing and I’d get tubs. Maybe the C35 tubs or 303’s. I’m not sure I’d spend that much on a pair of clinchers.

GT1972. Brilliant! I had heard about being able to ride on punctured tubs, albeit more cautiously, at least until you get home or for the pros, when the team car could get to them and provide a replacement wheel. Yes, I’ve also heard reports expressing a preference for how they ride, so it’s been good to have someone else with experience confirm this.

My best road bike is currently on it’s bars and saddle, san wheels. So during the coming months I would like to buy a really nice wheels set. I like the idea of tubs, but at this stage I’ll have to put that idea on the back burner. The winter bike is currently on a set of Mavic SLS Ksyrium, carbon hub body, zircal flat spokes and the 3D ISM rims. I think I paid around £700 for them a few years ago and at around 1400g they’ve been good enough for me, so far. I’m also thinking of obtaining a pair of hope aero on ZTR 400s which provide the opportunity to try tubeless at a later date.
Factory wheels, I know. I’ve had wheels built up for the commuter, years ago, but I’ve moved since then, so it would be a trek to return to the person who built those for me.
Appreciate the advice.
Ta.

I’ll stick with open tubulars and latex tubes for training on the road bike though.
I was once warned off latex inner tubes on the basis (I was told) that they tend to split, rather than hole. However, I’m not sure if that is an issue, if you can’t glue a patch onto latex, anyway?

I’ll stick with open tubulars and latex tubes for training on the road bike though.

This is where the sensible part of my brain says I should keep my Archetypes rather than sell them (although I kind of do need to sell something to pay for the Nemesis build!)

Like you Blobby I may have done about 1000 miles on the race wheels/tubs but they have also all been on fine sunny days. I did do a monster 100 miles out into the Peak District at the end of last year armed only with a mate and two cans of pitstop. I was thinking then that if something went wrong and the Pitstop didn’t work so well I was very long way from home!

The winter bike is currently on a set of Mavic SLS Ksyrium…I think I paid around £700 for them a few years ago

😯 8) 😯

Until very recently my winter bike had the Dura Ace C35s on them!

Makes a hell of a difference on a 100km commute.

I was once warned off latex inner tubes on the basis (I was told) that they tend to split, rather than hole. However, I’m not sure if that is an issue, if you can’t glue a patch onto latex, anyway?

Yes they do tend to split. You can get patches but they need to be specific latex ones. I just carry a butyl tube as a spare and some normal patches in case that also gets holed.

@CTM I was starting out from a point of knowing very little about individual wheel componentry and which brands, components and combinations would be worthy of a custom build. Hence my earlier comment, that I’ve mostly only bought/own factory wheels. The only custom build I have was fairly mainstream/safe in their spec. Hope Pro II, DT Swiss spokes and Open pros. They were for a disc brake road bike, a few years ago when, ime, choice was very restricted.

So, back to the now, that’s why this thread and esp GT1972’s input will be very useful for me, as I consider what to get for the summer/best road bike.

It’s a slight pity the Mavics are on winter road duty and getting a bit of a grinding. To limit the damage I clean the brake tracks between rides. But, my overiding philosophy is they are there to be used.

Makes a hell of a difference on a 100km commute
You commute 100Km! You must be fit as a butchers dog!
😯 😀

Yes they do tend to split. You can get patches but they need to be specific latex ones. I just carry a butyl tube as a spare and some normal patches in case that also gets holed.
Thanks for the clarification, noted.
🙂

You commute 100Km! You must be fit as a butchers dog!

Straight up I do, but, I don’t do it every day! I did it yesterday; 60km in and then 40km back in the pissing rain, cold dark and wind. I felt a bit heroic coming down Box Hill trying to keep the bike in a straight line in the pitch dark with a howling cross wind.

I use the commute as training and try to get above 280km a week in the winter months and up to 350km in the summer months. It’s hard though. The ride in to work is much easier when it’s daylight outside and warm.

ANyway Solo where are you based? On the off chance we are close you are more than welcome to try out any of the wheels I have.

ANyway Solo where are you based? On the off chance we are close you are more than welcome to try out any of the wheels I have.

I’m near Birmingham (not a native), I can travel, some. If you weren’t so fit and therefore I assume so much quicker than me, it might have been nice to have just met for a ride, with additional wheel chat too, although not simultaneously, as breathing while cycling has to be a top priority for an unfit cyclist, me.
🙂

Where’s all this nonsense about not being able to patch latex tubes come from?!

The latex tubes on my cross bike and on the winter road bike have ‘normal’ patches on them after punctures and are absolutely fine.

twinklydave – Member

Where’s all this nonsense about not being able to patch latex tubes come from?!

It was me, I was repeating what someone told me, years ago. I’ve been corrected.

It was me, I was repeating what someone told me, years ago. I’ve been corrected.

Aah, good. As you were. 🙂

The latex tubes on my cross bike and on the winter road bike have ‘normal’ patches on them after punctures and are absolutely fine.

Well who knew! Honestly I have been under the same illusion for ages as well. In fact, I must have binned something in the region at least a dozen latex tubes over the last two years.

To be fair I also got this from someone at Condor cycles although I didn’t research it very well.

Solo – I’m in the Brum area and have Archetypes on novatech hubs built by Mark at Overspoke in Bewdley on my commuter. They are great and I ride to Paris on them last year. He’s built me up carbon rims for my Nicolai which are also great and I can recommend him. He also usually keeps a stock of light bicycle carbon rims in stock.

I love the archetypes – they’ve been great. I upgraded from some fulcrum 5s and there is a definite improvement.

My race bike has mavic cosmics and tbh I don’t think they are any better than the archetypes.

13thfloormonk – Member
Interested to hear that, I’m 85kg (working on it but unlikely to lose much!) and day dreaming about hand building Dura Ace hubs onto Archetypes with 32 DT Rev spokes. Didn’t think stiffness would be an issue, although Shimano hubs reputedly build stiff rims due to the bracing angle of the flanges (they don’t look high so I’m guessing they’re relatively wide).

Flange spacing is interesting. IME there are a few factors:
1. Most important is to have the DS flange as close to the cassette as possible.
2. If the NDS is too far out then the spokes can’t be tensioned enough and you can get the washing line effect.
3. Campag (and maybe others) realised this and use 2:1 lacing to make up the difference (i.e. 2/3 the spokes on the DS and 1/3 NDS)

IMO

Shimano hubs reputedly build stiff rims due to the bracing angle of the flanges

…is utter BS.

TiRed – Member

No, but it is stiffer. And if you are 90 kilos then that might be important when sprinting out of the saddle during those 5 second neuromuscular efforts you want to capture with that Powertap.

But it’s just not important, it’s just more nonsense to make things interesting/sellable.

infidel – Member

Solo – I’m in the Brum area and have Archetypes on novatech hubs built by Mark at Overspoke in Bewdley on my commuter
Thanks for the local recommendation. Noted.
Cheers.

SO here’s a funny thing. Not two hours after posting all that I did about tubs and punctures and never having had one did I then subsequently have one! 😀

I’ve just got back from a cheeky 50km spin in the hills and about two thirds of the way round I got a flat. My first thought was ‘well at least we are going to find out how this goes!’

The first can of sealant inflated the tyre but didn’t seal the hole. I’m not sure if this is user error or just how it’s supposed to work, i.e. it takes time for the sealant to solidify but either way, anxiety meant I spunked the second can in as well just for good measure.

You still need to add more air though, lucky I had a pump. It seemed to be going well until about 4km down the road, the rear has gone too soft to ride. All that stuff about riding a tub flat, well yes, you can in so much as it doesn’t come off the rim, but it’s still a nightmare of little to no control.

Fortunately, I was able to reinflate the tyre and after that it seemed to hold fine. Another 6km back and it didn’t seem an issue.

However, that said, this tub is less than 200km old and the sealant approach to covering punctures, while it worked in this instance, does make me feel a little anxious. It might be user error or it might well not be 100% and the only way you can be really sure is to have a spare tub with you on a long ride. I think at that point, I’d be questioning the advantages, much as I love the ride.

Now the dilema is do I cancel the order for the Nemesis or follow through with it…… 🙄

If your supplier will permit you to cancel. Then although it’s not my style to alter an order. On this occasion I would at least delay until I’d had more time to consider the entire plan.

Sorry to learn of your woes. Initial thoughts are whether tub manufs produce tubs with removal valves so that one might pour in some conventional liquid sealant?

Clinchers with latex inner tubes will give you 4/5 the performance of tubulars without the worry. There is a weight penalty, of course.

I’m looking at some ARC carbon tubulars but they will be for racing only and 1100g.

I do commute on tubulars in the summer on the fixed wheel.

I’m considering tubs for the new summer road bike, but durability is definitely a concern. When I had Conti Competitions they went flat on top very quickly, and they’re meant to be among the more durable. 😕

geetee1972 – Member

The first can of sealant inflated the tyre but didn’t seal the hole. I’m not sure if this is user error or just how it’s supposed to work, i.e. it takes time for the sealant to solidify but either way, anxiety meant I spunked the second can in as well just for good measure.

If it’s the vittoria pitstop stuff I think you’re meant to sit around and wait for 10 mins to let it cure/set/work/all ooze out. (Not that the helpful pictorial story thing on the side of the can is of much use!)

https://www.patchnride.com

Shame these still aren’t shipping, interesting concept, wonder if it works (clearly not as well as they’d hope eh…)? I’ve purchased some tubs this year, nervous!

Twinkiedave that’s good info thanks. Sounds like user error then which is reassuring.

Latex tubes really make you go faster? Or just more comfy?

Well they do reduce rolling resistance, so yes, they may make you go faster. More likely, they make you go the same speed for less energy. I really like them.

No tube is easier to patch if you do puncture – vulcanisation is very effective. They do however punish poor installation mercilessly. I’ve blown two out from under the bead and they make a huge bang that leaves a 10cm slash along the inner tube which is irreparable. And deafens you!!!

Pump them every 2-3 days. I over inflate on Monday, then leave them until Thursday.

I can second everything Tired said and in particular this!

I’ve blown two out from under the bead and they make a huge bang that leaves a 10cm slash along the inner tube which is irreparable. And deafens you!!!

I’ve nigh on shat myself at least twice as a result of this.

They lose about 20psi of pressure every 24 hours typically.

Shame these still aren’t shipping, interesting concept, wonder if it works (clearly not as well as they’d hope eh…)? I’ve purchased some tubs this year, nervous!

I’d forgotten about that, been in development for a while. Could be interesting if they sort it!

where does road tubeless fit into this debate in terms of benefits and comparisons?

None of the weight saving benefits, most of the performance advantages.

That’s quite a statement njee, or at least the second half of it.

BY performance advantages we are talking about the reduced rolling resistance. I would say that, for going up hill at least, reduced weight is another performance advantage.

Nick how reliable are tubeless road systems these days? I’ve only ever heard annecdotal accounts but these are consistently saying that road tubeless is a bit hit and miss compared to MTB tubeless (on account of the higher pressure that the tyres run at).

I’ve set my Mrs up with tubeless on her road wheels just to save her any hassle from small punctures so she can make it home. Apart from needing super strength to get the tyres on the rim they have been working great. Performance wise she hasn’t a clue, but her average speed has went from 11.3mph to 11.7mph 😉

That’s good insight Burnsy – thanks for sharing

I set up my Giant pSLR aero wheels with Schwalbe One tubeless 25c. They replaced some ordinary Schwalbe One 25c with latex tubes, so it is a like-for like comparison. I didn’t notice the slightest difference.

I’ve moved the tubeless tyres onto some Ksyrium Elites and gone back to 23c Ones on the Giant wheels. They mounted fine and do roll well. But I still don’t see any difference from latex inner tubes.