seriously, I now go out of my way on my daily commute, to try and not annoy or upset anyone.
people and times have changed, and there are some pretty nasty angry folk knocking around. I love my canalside commute.

Do you disagree with damo2576’s point about Public Order offences?[/quote]

I disagree that he posted the whole text of that part of the Public Order Act (including the defences). In reply to martinhutch, absolutely zero chance that could be proved beyond reasonable doubt given the statutory defence, and the CPS guidelines make it fairly clear that no charge would be brought for such an incident. No such defence available for driving into an ASL box or punching somebody.

I don’t think anybody disputes that the cyclist was unwise to chase down the car, but that’s not actually the point, and absolutely nothing the cyclist does leads to him deserving a punch. I do wonder that some people on here seem to think there are circumstances in which violence is reasonable behaviour.

I think we all know the system is badly broken.

^ exactly ton. Let the rats fight among themselves.
You can be in the right all day long but making your point all the time or shouting about it will sooner or later get you punched. Reason and legality doesn’t come into it at that time.
I don’t believe in meekly giving bullying types their way but life lessons and common sense say pick your battles if you must have them and be aware of how it can end up. I’ve had a guy get out of a car and jab a screwdriver in my neck – how do you handle that?

Must have been your fault though jameso 😉

On a serious note though, that’s awful, exactly the reason why I do my best to avoid any confrontations these days, there’s no point going round like some kind of vigilante road-rules enforcer, as at some point its going to end in tears. Don’t let the losers ruin your day!

Slightly OT but the Police really do have their hands full. There are some really really nasty pieces of work out there. They are working hard just to keep us at a civil level nevermind a traffic/cyclist spat ontop.

I agree it is not how I react.

That said the driver is the illegal one End of the their fault. Cyclist is at worst unwise driver at best a criminal

Plus when you hear a cyclist shouting at a car it always looks abit embarrassing/crap on the cyclist IMO. I never think ‘go brother/etc’ just ooo bit embarrassing/someones lost it.

I don’t want to be ‘right’ laying in a coffin.

seriously, I now go out of my way on my daily commute, to try and not annoy or upset anyone.

+1, this is what I’ve been getting at in my earlier posts.

Although the cyclist was doing nothing wrong from a LEGAL point of view (initially anyway) by taking the ASL, he was (IMHO) unwise to do so since it caused an unnecessary boxing in of the car.

Being right is no real defence when faced with a cock in a tonne of car. No, of course the driver shouldn’t have reacted in that way but neither should the cyclist have chased him down.

Look at the video right from the start – there’s a sensible queue of cyclists in the left hand lane. All except for Mr Righteous who just has to go up the outside. Sure it was legal but that doesn’t make it the right course of action for that particular situation.

And as others have said, as soon as the situation escalated, he should just have ridden off.

You can be in the right all day long but making your point all the time or shouting about it will sooner or later get you punched. Reason and legality doesn’t come into it at that time.

^^ what jameso said

Look at the video right from the start – there’s a sensible queue of cyclists in the left hand lane. All except for Mr Righteous who just has to go up the outside. Sure it was legal but that doesn’t make it the right course of action for that particular situation.

Much like AlturaMan, who we all see every day. Everyone else waiting patiently in the ASL, he rolls through the rest of us, positioning himself just in front of the others, often just over the line in the pedestrian crossing area. Then, when the lights change, he grinds away in the biggest gear he has. Asshat.

The key thing here is, we all know who was in the wrong, but we also all know how that conflict* could have been avoided.

*Jameso’s post above very neatly illustrates why avoiding conflict is essential.

it caused an unnecessary boxing in of the car.

As you note he did what he is legally entitled to and he is not boxing in anyone he is taking up the position that he has been advised to take so he can get away first and safely as its it the cyclists who get killed,

All except for Mr Righteous who just has to go up the outside.

you say this about car drivers who stick to the speed limit and obey the laws I assume?

In all this I think it’s interesting how ‘bad’ from our POV a lot of driving is in Asia. No-one there seems to gives a toss, the traffic flows while people undertake, cut in, make squeezing, scary overtakes and tailgate all day. There’s accidents and taxi rides there scare the crp out of me at times. But I’ve never seen any road rage. I’m not judging it aside from thinking it’s risky, really just observing.

All I can think of is the differences in culture, our sense of ROW, ownership, entitlement and self vs their sense of being just one of many, not wanting to stand out much or make a fuss, a more accepting go-with-flow nature, something like that. Generalising but there’s some truth in it.I’m not sure but it’s interesting.
Makes me wonder if we create many of the issues around us ourselves yet perceive them as the fault of others by our defensive, fault-seeking nature. Choose your attitude etc. Amateur psychology BS, sorry ) but it affects how I react to these situations.
Dissecting incidents or rights of way etc doesn’t change how people are, bad driving is a knock-on effect of stressed lives, ignorance etc. It’s a bigger issue than just the driving and the police are too underfunded to address it as mentioned above.

Why do you think the ASL is the full width of the lane?

I don’t think anybody disputes that the cyclist was unwise to chase down the car, but that’s not actually the point, and absolutely nothing the cyclist does leads to him deserving a punch. I do wonder that some people on here seem to think there are circumstances in which violence is reasonable behaviour.

If someone came up to you on the street angrily shouting right in your face – what would your response be? I don’t think I’d hit them but I couldn’t rule it out.

According to some on here you should ‘stand up for yourself’ in that scenario – but only if you’re a cyclist.

Why do you think the ASL is the full width of the lane?

So we can annoy car drivers by boxing them in aggressively – can you not read 😉

As you note he did what he is legally entitled to

Indeed, but that doesn’t make it right. Much like the fact that the speed limit on a country lane may well be 60mph, but it doesn’t mean it would be right to go at 60mph, even if you were legally entitled to.

If they create a defined box at the head of the lights, the clear intent is that cyclists use all of it when necessary. Otherwise it would just be a stop line with a bike lane ahead of it.

Part of the idea is to get a pack of cyclists away well in front of potential left-hooking motorists as often as possible as opposed to creating a lengthy single-file line of cyclists heading away, meaning that left-turning traffic then has to stop and wait for the whole line to pass before making the manoeuvre.

Helps everyone, even Audi drivers.

Indeed, but that doesn’t make it right. Much like the fact that the speed limit on a country lane may well be 60mph, but it doesn’t mean it would be right to go at 60mph, even if you were legally entitled to.
[/quote]Why do you think the ASL is the full width of the lane?

EVERY asl in London is full of cyclists, often 5 or 6 deep across the wdith of the road, they out-number cars by at least 5 to 1, often more. Cycling has taken over in central London. Public transport is full and driving in central London costs 8 quid in congestion charges and around 40 quid to park. No other option!

The reason you need to move to the right is to let other poeple in so they don’t set off amongst the traffic. Notice all the tipper lorries on the other side of the road? Theres loads of building work there at the moment. Even “taking the lane” doesn’t guarantee safety since

Theres no way the driver or passenger are local to London, as its utterly pointless getting annoyed by cyclists in front of you whilst driving. He’d be in punch ups every day.

driving is in Asia

http://footage.shutterstock.com/clip-2925658-stock-footage-kuala-lumpur-march-traffic-jam-in-city-center.html?src=rel/1461232:5

for some perspective

Theres no way the cyclist is local to London, as its utterly pointless getting annoyed by drivers doing stupid things. He’d be in punch ups every day.

Much like the fact that the speed limit on a country lane may well be 60mph, but it doesn’t mean it would be right to go at 60mph, even if you were legally entitled to.

Has a cyclist ever been prosecuted for an offence for going into an ASL at a red light wherever they put their bike?
Driver have for the scenario you describe as yes that may still be a driving offence

Arguments (I found) in London tended to be handbag-affairs. I had a full blown argument with a bloke who threw his whole bodyweight into a packed tube carriage just as the doors were shutting. He landed on two ladies.

Que me objecting/kicking off and him kicking off. He then said ‘have you been eating garlic’ Yes, quite abit last night actually. Que end of argument with an apology.

Up north (as on the roads) it’d more likely be a fight from pretty much straight away?

The cyclist got owned and looked a bit silly but saying he deserved it is a bit odd, if the cyclist was a bit hardcore himself are you saying he had the right to drag the driver into the street and beat him up for the aggressive behaviour that started the incident??? Be reasonable people.

Riding in Cities is a fantastic buzz 😀

Theres no way the driver or passenger are local to London, as its utterly pointless getting annoyed by cyclists in front of you whilst driving. He’d be in punch ups every day.

The car was registered in Northants, so an outsider.

The video has also had 32,000 hits, a lot more than the cyclist had,shouldnt be long before the hiter is identified now.

Theres no way the cyclist is local to London, as its utterly pointless getting annoyed by drivers doing stupid things. He’d be in punch ups every day.

Except he didn’t punch anyone. People shout at each other a fair bit on Londons roads, punch ups are unusual.

I’m really shocked by this, I always find Audi drivers the most courteous and polite users of the highways, must be an isolated incident.

If you go looking for trouble you’ll usually get it, not sure it deserved a slap though.

I am quite sure I wouldn’t punch them. Haven’t hit anybody since I was ~16 (apart from maybe in self defence, but even in the incidents I can recall where I’ve been attacked I don’t think I’ve thrown a punch). I actually find it a bit scary the number of people who it seems wouldn’t rule out using their fists in such a situation.

Ah, but it was the passenger who used his fists – I presume he owns a BMW.

I actually find it a bit scary the number of people who it seems wouldn’t rule out using their fists in such a situation.

And that’s why I’d say being right isn’t always something to shout about )

shouldnt be long before the hiter is identified now.

Isn’t that irrelevant unless someone (ie the cyclist) registers a complaint?

(apart from maybe in self defence, but even in the incidents I can recall where I’ve been attacked I don’t think I’ve thrown a punch). I actually find it a bit scary the number of people who it seems wouldn’t rule out using their fists in such a situation.

If that happened in the street I think you could easily argue punching him was self-defence. I’m not saying it’s the right thing to do, or that I would do it, but I couldn’t rule it out if I felt threatened. Getting out of the car to do it makes it a bit different.

I find it a bit worrying how many people are willing to excuse aggressive behaviour just because it’s a cyclist that’s doing it.

While I’m broadly sympathetic to those castigating any cyclist for being overly aggressive, swearing into people’s windows and looking for confrontations, I’m really bamboozled by the assertion on this thread that cyclists should be crammed to the left in the ASL / ASZ / bike box.

The whole point is that they are full width, other places (I can think of at least one in Leeds) you could, if that was the intention, extend the bike lane at the same width, but stopping further forward, but that’s not what the ASL does, is it? It goes full width so you can safely position yourself in front of traffic, visible to drivers, and less vulnerable to “left hooks”. Isn’t saying the cyclists should stay to the left of it not much different to the Clarksons of this world thinking that cyclists should ride in the gutter to stay “out of the way” of cars? What am I missing here?

On a related note, does anyone know if any driver, anywhere, ever, has actually been ticketed for an ASL infringement?

Can’t be bothered to read all the posts but All this video does is confirm the fact that there are **** driving cars and **** riding bikes and people feel the need to argue otherwise. Shame really we could be discussing wheel sizes!?

Surely entering the ASL is an offence regardless? (though I’m assuming the police will take no action in any case).

On a related note, does anyone know if any driver, anywhere, ever, has actually been ticketed for an ASL infringement?

I’ve seen a few FPNs being handed out in recent weeks, so yes. There’s been a big push by the Police to both educate and, where necessary, prosecute this for all road users. Which is a good thing, IMHO. FWIW, I’ve yet to see a cyclist getting a FPN, just a polite telling off.

Really? Self-defence against being shouted at? It’s not as if the cyclist threatens to use violence himself.

I find it a bit worrying how many people are willing to excuse aggressive behaviour just because it’s a cyclist that’s doing it.

It’s because his actions are justifiable (see defence for public order offence) as he’s complaining about the driver’s actions which came close to injuring him (to be honest that bit of driving is also an offence). Nothing to do with what mode of transport he’s using. It actually seems that some people on here criticise people more because they’re cyclists.

this place depresses me, I’m going back to the ghost ship cannibal rats thread

grum » If that happened in the street I think you could easily argue punching him was self-defence.

Really? Self-defence against being shouted at? It’s not as if the cyclist threatens to use violence himself.[/quote]

Agree with aracer – plus the passenger is a) in a car and b) not the recipient of the vitriol from the cyclist. No way in a million years is that self defence!