Riding MoD land in the South…. Words of warning!

As I remember things the person who can order you off the land has to be duly authorised by the Commanding Oficer to do so; that is the CO of the area, not the excercise. I’m not sure how that works when the training area has been hived off to a private company.

well that’s the bit that needs sorting out then. The squadies could easily hold the ‘perpetrators’ until an MP arrives to escort them to the CO and a dressing down, or whatever.

After a few such incidents they should reduce or stop.

It is the backing up of a threat of action that will sort out this problem, not a threat of action which never seems to be backed up because of resourcing issues.

there are many areas of Scotland you are not allowed to just wander across when you see fit

really – where?

TooTall – Member

STOP

Perspective time. The MoD owns vast tracts of land across the UK. Much of it isn’t remotely attractive to mountain bikers or other outdoor types. Some of it is.
Some of it has problems with people straying off the accepted (legal, permitted, whatever the definition) trails and being where they should not be

In scotland we have this thing called right to roam – we have the right to go on almost all of the land. So there is almost no where we are not allowed to be.

This is the bit you seem unable to grasp. We have the right to be on the land and this causes no issues here.

Any one above the rank of LCpl an NCO in uniform and with ID who has permission to be on the land granted from the GOC has the right to eject/detain/confiscate equipment for Her Majesty any said person causing a nuisance on MoD land.

Enforcement has begun and how strict they are we will see.

Catterick N Yorks training areas have a zero tolerance to any one other than MoD on the land, name,details taken and your escorted or taken off! To that end the Aldershot area riders think yourselves lucky.

The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 establishes a statutory right of responsible access to land and inland waters in Scotland including the Defence Estate. It does not apply to airfields or secure defence facilities, and the public are excluded from live-firing ranges when red flags are flying. The following three key principles for responsible access apply to both the public and land managers:

Respect the interests of other people: be considerate, respect privacy and livelihoods and the needs of those enjoying the outdoors
Care for the environment: look after the places you visit and enjoy, care for wildlife and historic sites
Take responsibility for your own actions: the outdoors cannot be made risk free for people exercising access rights; land managers should act with care for people’s safety

Responsible access and not on live ranges when flags are flying (or in impact zones) and not on secure facilities. Not quite everywhere then. I understand Right to Roam but I understand it isn’t quite everywhere all the time.

The squadies could easily hold the ‘perpetrators’ until an MP arrives to escort them to the CO and a dressing down, or whatever.

OK. Stop now. Illegal detention is not an answer. You are taking things to a new level of obtuse I only thought TJ possible of.

So tootall – where are

many areas of Scotland you are not allowed to just wander across when you see fit

?

TJ

If you think I’m going to sit and list all live firing ranges and all secure facilities in Scotland you have more time on your hands than I do.

As TooTall says illegal detention by soldiers is not the answer, nor would they want, or be allowed, to get involved in it. I am pretty sure you wouldn’t be put in front of the CO, (1 or 2* officers have better things to do), more that their ‘authorised agent’ would request you to leave, and if you didn’t the MP would be called.

I am merely pointing out that you have once again failed to understand the simple point I was making in your haste to show I was wrong.

the point is because of the different legal basis for access the MOD are used to people having the right to be on the land and thus there is no conflict as the MOD work within the right to roam. If this can be achieved in one part of the UK it could be achieved anywhere in the UK.

I have cycled right thru a nighttime exercise. No warning flags out, no problem as they are used to it and have to accept it.

OK. Stop now. Illegal detention is not an answer

detention was only suggested as someone reckoned the CO has to order them from the land – but as pants says any NCO can do it – so order them from the land – if they are cheeky/abusive then seize their bikes/dogs.

So basically it is the same access as it has been until recently, just with strict enforcement in the face of an abusive public.

It seems to me that the main problem (apart from blinding mtb lights at night which I would think to be a major problem and worth of a blanket ban) is dog sh1t.

Anyone whose dog is seen fouling but fails to pick it up should be forced to crawl though it.

TJ – you have a tiny experience of a tiny part of the estate and you seem to believe that it is the same for all areas at all times. It isn’t. This discussion was about the areas in the SE of England that have problems – a small %-age of the total. Somehow you think your Right to Roam and limited personal experience translates to Surrey. It doesn’t and all you are doing is claiming that the Scottish answer would solve all. Which is what you normally do. Thank you for using this thread for your own grandstanding. Again.

Tootall – how about actually listening? I am not the one grandstanding here. I simple make a small point which you have failed to understand once more. you leap into the attack based on not listening to the point I made and not understanding the situation.

Oh well, I suppose another thread will start when a mtb’er is killed during a live fire exercise as they thought they had a right to be there or failed to see the red flags or missed the loud bangs…….
🙄

A lot of places there are only small firing ranges though and masses of safe land around them. You’re highly unlikely to catch a stray round. In fact, they’ve shifted a lot of their small arms firing over to indoor electronic ranges the last 5 years or so?

Anyone who cuts a trail in anywhere near a firing range is doing some IRL trolling. Anyone going out for a long ride off the beaten track who doesn’t check the OS map (and take it with them plus a compass in case they need to walk out) is asking for it.

ps. I once was caught by the Bursars wife checking their door and under their car in the early hours up some place in Scotland and she led a right banshee screaming for all to hear, a few phone calls ensued and I was whisked away from trouble. I was informed by a local soon after that there will never be a terrorist incident in Scotland, because half the west coast will be back over on the ferries. Moral of the story where we’re involved, don’t cycle near the Bursars house.

TJ I thought the title of this thread was

Riding MoD land in the South…. Words of warning!

so why are you weighing in with discussion about access in Scotland? Or is it about you and Tootall having the usual willy waving at each other? 🙂

Its pretty clear this is a thread about riding on the Aldershot/Bagshot/Ashvale areas which are heavily used and an important riding area for locals.

The circumstances are completely different to that in Scotland. For a start the amount of usage by MTBers and MOD per square mile is significantly higher in the south and the access laws are probably different.

You could of course start a separate thread on access in Scotland and you and Tootall could argue away pointlessly to your hearts content, and allow this thread to focus on the subject in the title, which is quite important to the users of these trails? 😀

Pants – name and shame please? If riders are not using MOD land respectfully, the MTB community should address this. As Jonv says I would not want to support any club or shop that is doign this.

A lot of places there are only small firing ranges though and masses of safe land around them.

Unfortunately in the Aldershot training area, that the article in the OP mainly relates to, the opposite is the case.

A fairly densely-populated urban conurbation (Aldershot/Farnborough/Fleet/Camberley etc) is hemmed in on several sides by MOD land which makes up the majority of nearby publicly-accessible land.

There is plenty of non-MOD land a bit further afield, but for those living locally with only limited time available to ride, MOD land has always been the most realistic option.

TJ – I understand your point entirely. If the shared access model can work in one place, it might also work elsewhere, provided the desire to make it work exists amongst all users. Obviously, demonstrating the desirability of this to the MOD is the crux of the problem that local groups are currently wrestling with.

A quick google of the initials brings up Diary of a Mountaim Biker. Local loose-knit club.

I have some ideas about PP but don’t want to say unless sure.

GB

Sorry Gee, is that in answer to my Question? I know who DOAMTB are and I know who PP is. It’s more to do with why DOAMTB have been mentioned as they very rarely ride that area as a group.

So PeterPoddy has been riding around hurling abuse at squadies ? Tut tut.

😉

I live backing onto Ash Ranges and often ride there and will lose a lot of riding time in the evenings if we lose access to this and Tunnel Hill.

From speaking to the range officer at Ash Ranges he said that they had instances of both MTBers and dog walkers clearing walking on the ranges in the last few weeks when the red flags/ lanterns were up. They have been using he ranges extensively in the last few weeks as they wait to deploy abroad.

They have also had riders on night rides come riding through the middle of exercises with 1500lumen lights in big group and couldn’t see why they would this would disturb the troops on exercise, they were rightly told to piss off by the military and carried on riding.

All it takes is a sensible approach, it is not difficult, respect that the land you are riding on is MOD land first, a nice place to ride second.

Oh I see – no it was an answer to Andy’s question above. I’m not sure I understand what Si is saying – are these groups causing trouble or being good?

I am constantly amazed by the actions and general stupidity of my fellow riders – actions such as those described above are deplorable in the worst possible sense. I am generally losing confidence in the happy, fun nature of mtbers in general. People have even stopped saying hello on the trails. More and more complaints about poor manners and rudeness at races, people ending up in lakes after being barged off, swearing at fellow competitors… Can’t these tools bugger off back to the golf course.

GB

I’m not sure I understand what Si is saying

I don’t either, in relation to DOAMTB and PP.

Also, PP may refer to PorridgePot rather than a person. Or it may not. Hopefully he may clarify!

double post

I meant PH not PP 😳

And i have received complaints about these, as on group wears a top with it on and other info on the other!!! Not proper MTBers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will be having a word with PH which appear to be the main offenders!!!

Pedal Heaven ?

Pedal Heaven ?

The outfit that **** over the other outfit?
Some field discipline in order? No witnesses.

From speaking to the range officer at Ash Ranges he said that they had instances of both MTBers and dog walkers clearing walking on the ranges in the last few weeks when the red flags/ lanterns were up.

let them get shot – it is Darwinian evolution, init?

They have also had riders on night rides come riding through the middle of exercises with 1500lumen lights in big group and couldn’t see why they would this would disturb the troops on exercise, they were rightly told to piss off by the military and carried on riding.

there is already a threat of bike confiscation – but why don’t they just confiscate their lights and let the buggers find their own way out.

Or even video the incidents and put it up on youtube to name and shame – the bikers would never be able to come out looking anything less than ar5es.

I have to think that the lights are the biggest issue – night vision gone in a flash which will take another half hour to get back.

Blanket ban against night riding on MOD land – easy to find the perps as they have extremely bright lights 🙂

yepp

It could effect future events on Eelmore!

long term I cant see the army winning. The population is increasing especially in the SE there will be more and more pressure for acess in these areas.

With swinley starting parking charges it will be interesting to see if these areas actually become more busy at the weekend.

As has been pointed out, the MOD control a large amount of land in the an area which is short of land for development, most of it common land that was seized in WW2 for training purposes and never returned despite pledges at the time. The government is reviewing MOD land to see what can be sold off and used for building on. Although most of this land has conservation status, the latest planning rules are watering a lot of this down.
Where we have been riding on the same S/T for the last 15 plus years we are influencing rights of access will which make it more difficult to develop the land, hence the use of private land management companies to restrict access. Give it a couple of years of reduced access and see what comes up for development sale.

Hmm bit of a long thread now
The MOD has so much land around the surrey/hants/west sussex border
Its quite ridiculous as they hardly use it but in the last 6months are
Putting the frighteners on dog walkers and bikers. Agree that if red flags are up
Then We should steer clear, but when they rent it out to filming (eg latest
Bond film) for 3 months making thousands of pounds per day and still
Moan about dog walkers and bIkers then its double standards.

The MOD has too much land, its costing them (via us the tax payer) alot
to maintain when they could simply hand it over to the forestry commission or national trust. They simply dont need it all. They are just greedy you know whats. Whitehall is run by muppets who are stuck in the 50’s. 16 year old kids would be better snipers and war game strategists than a bunch of squaddies playing shootem ups on hankley common.

Ps using iphone so sorry for all the split sentances and capital letters

Why keep developing in the south – start the investment moving north ffs.

Look at Cardiff docks – used to be a complete sh1thole and now it is a fully developed plot with expensive housing and shops, and sometimes features in Dr Who and that other one with that camp broadway-type bloke.

TandemJeremy – Member
This so makes me laugh. Why on earth does the public being on the land make any difference to the squadies training?

Our local riding spot – the pentlands has a fair amount of army training on it and no significant restrictions on who can go where. I have ridden right thru a night exercise when on a night ride. Perfectly legitimately and with no complaints

Sums up the problem with people using training areas. You impact the training as they with have to take account of you asserting your “TJ” given right to do what you want. You impact the training when you flounder through the exercise, you don’t get stopped because of the discipline the forces impose, I really don’t doubt that there would have been a queue to fill you in without it.

But you will never have the face incoming fire from people who want to kill you so why care?

We built some marvellous stunt ramps and elevated planks over Tunnel Hill years ago. They lasted a lot longer than the stuff we built on Forestry Commission land. Interestingly when it did get trashed the MOD built their own rather shite stuff?

Funny old game.

really – where?

I’ve seen a number of places up the west coast/west highlands, while on my wanders, where there was significant signage that suggested entry was a BIG no-no and have heard more than a couple of reports of people wandering into them as kids and being removed and politely delivered back to their parents with a stern warning. I’ve personally walked up to a fence and been met by an unhappy looking face that popped out of a bush and waved a weapon at me telling me not to even think about crossing the fence.

FWIW your comments about walking through training exercises with no problem and no flags suggests simply that you stumbled upon a simple non-live training exercise where it was safe for you to be ignored. This does not suggest that live training is “worked around” by Scottish military or that there’s universal access to land here. There clearly isn’t, you don’t honestly think that no live firing goes on here? Or that down south they always keep people out of exercises regardless of their live firing or not?

From my limited 3rd party knowledge of live fire training that goes on down south the presence of any unexpected person would be a nightmare, bringing everything to a halt and making the whole exercise a waste of time and public cash because joe bloggs wanted to cycle his bike down a specific path. These are real live-firing arrangements where people walk around whole areas firing live rounds and trying not to kill real people. This is expensive. They don’t do it for the fun of it.

I too have ridden through exercises in the Pentlands,no signs up, nothing, no trouble…so it seems there’s a bit of TJ bashing going on here. (same has happened on the Ciaran path)

I’ve no idea what the rules are North v South, but IIRC all they ask in the Pentlands is you stick to the paths when the flags are up.

Bear in mind this is a small and busy area right on the edge of a 500,000 occupant city.

Point is Al the thread’s about the military land in SE not the Pentlands, which may well be a

….a small and busy area right on the edge of a 500,000 occupant city

but these ranges are even smaller and busier and on the edge of a metropolitan area with a population of more than three times the whole of Scotland

….IIRC all they ask in the Pentlands is you stick to the paths when the flags are up.

pretty much the same as “our” rules; use the land with consideration and keep out of the areas where the military are working

I know, I was responding mostly to big_n_daft’s response above.

variflex – the Army needs a variety of land to keep exercises challenging, realistic and to reduce travelling time and cost. Currently, it has access to huge areas of Germany, Kenya and Canada. However, as troops return from Germany and budgets shrink, more will have to be done locally. Also traing areas are sometimes not used as fauna and flora are often allowed to recover to prevent overuse such as soil erosion, compacted ground etc. The MOD manages its estates well and are good conservationists. Sometimes, exercising troops simply can’t be seen or heard – camouflage and concealment being part of field craft. I doubt the NT or FC will allow more access or the building of jumps and north shore structures.

The Pentlands can’t be compared to training areas in England. There are five times as many troops in Aldershot-Camberley-Deepcut-Pirbright than the whole of Scotland and four times as many in Catterick Garrison. The Pentland ranges at Castlelaw are contained by the topography and ranges are easily seen from miles around. At Ash Ranges the ground is largely flat with thick pine forests between multiple ranges – all to easy to walk/ride into.

So far, the MOD has been remarkable patient and obliging. Let’s not piss them off.

Redfordrider – you make a fantastic point on the MOD and conservation – they put a huge effort into it and really are one of the worlds best at looking after the flora and fauna on the land that they own.

Lets not forget that the land at Ceasars Camp is pretty heavily designated for conservation value, and this may be a major factor in anything going on, especially if people have been digging trails etc without permission.

As I said on the Hankley common thread a little while back:

The MOD is one of the best neighbours MTB’ers could have! proven more than enough times in this area – As a community, the one thing we don’t need to be doing is firing up the outrage bandwagon every five minutes over something that turns out to be nothing

So, lets get our facts straight – hopefully the TAG guys will be able to find out some actual facts and feed them back to us all, on what exactly is going on, what the problems are, and what we as a community can do to police ourselves, educate each other, and work with the MOD to ensure that responsible and reasonable access continues as it has for years.

SO, I see my questions still stand:

In the light of this, are Gorrick and the Trolls going to stop riding/racing/building trails on this land?

Pants, you’re in the Army, the ACU, you build trails and organise races on this land. Are you gonna stop that? Becasuse as such your actions are a significant part of the problem 🙂

I think not. 🙂