Remote working – increasing pushback from employers?

This might sound weird, but I work better when I have people around me, even if I’m wearing headphones to block them out. I took a desk in one of those work hub places when I was self-employed because I was so much more productive. There’s something about going to a different place where all I do is work.

My current full-time employer is one of those 100% at the office outliers. The CEO says he wants us talking and collaborating face to face, as in his opinion that’s what makes a company productive and sustainable. In reality we do about 80%, as there’s still flexibility and a lot of people spend a day a week at home. We’re a manufacturing (hardware and software) business.

Obviously experienced staff work well from home, but I can see how the younger, less experienced ones are developing much quicker now than they did during covid times. The ones who started then still talk about how they struggled at home.

But the other thing I think about is that a company that encourages working from home is in a stronger position to hire their workforce wherever it’s cheapest, so I do see greater job security in my company’s approach.

If the work environment is big enough, then i guess by the law of averages its quite normal to find someone you have enough in common with to actually become friends with.

My former work environment was 30:2 in favour of the opposite sex; the majority 25yrs older. The only other male was very neuro-divergent, and probably a nice guy if you could get more than a grunt out of him .. which I failed to do in the 3 years I was there. There were a handful I could have a giggle with but nobody I would want to give up my private time for.

I always find those people in work who try arranging work nights out every month or so a bit sad, you just know they stalking social media every evening to add you to their fake friends list.

Benos hits the spot with me up there. We might be a minority but at least we’re not alone!

I dont think you’re in a minority, and what you say seems perfectly reasonable if your wired that way.

But were not all wired that way, and you lot do my head in 😉  Fortunately for me, my employer is good enough to have honest conversations with and flexible enough that accommodations are made if a work pattern/set up isnt going to result in a content and productive employee.

Over the past few years I’ve worked in a few different offices for extended periods of time and noticed definite geographic differences in the level of social interaction amongst colleagues. This is across teams of 10-20 folk

18 years working in Glasgow – party time. Everyone gets on, constant social stuff outside work

6 months in Farnborough – zero social interaction. Very much turn up, do the job, leave at 5pm. They didn’t even have a Xmas lunch or night out. My leaving “celebration” was 3 of us going to Wimpy!

6 months in central London – Massively sociable, almost something going on every night of the week even if it was just a couple of post work drinks

6 months in Brighton – not particularly sociable despite being a much younger team than I had worked with previously. I took them out for a team lunch one day and it was very awkward

Last 3 years in Manchester – when I joined it was very unsociable..everyone was a bit insular. I’ve introduced a once a month night out after our monthly team meeting. Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere. Attendance isn’t mandatory, but it’s been hugely beneficial for building team spirit and bonding, which has seen huge benefits in work during particularly busy or successful times

Whilst WFH widens the gap between office and hands on workers, it does also have a lot of benefits for reducing inequality. All the people moving away from e.g. London to WFH are taking London salaries and spreading that wealth to the rest of the country. Of course that leads to house price rises but it also pays a lot of people’s wages everywhere they spend their money. Must also be good for fertility rates if people are able to live closer to their parents for childcare help, rather than chasing southwards for jobs.

I would never have been able to take my (not London) money back to Yorkshire if WFH hadn’t become a thing

Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere. Attendance isn’t mandatory, but it’s been hugely beneficial for building team spirit and bonding, which has seen huge benefits in work during particularly busy or successful times

would this work to the detriment of folk like me?  Or folk who have caring duties outside of work?  ie being left out of the team / being an outsider?  I would find this both coercive and exclusionary.  Want team bonding?  do it in work time!  IMO you are using peer pressure to make folk work outside their hours – just another take on it.

So you’ve not been accountable for the design of a large complex multidisciplinary system then?

I do a lot of project work, our “clients” are 8 nuclear power stations sites dotted around the UK coast served by two offices at opposite ends of the country. One projects stakeholders included stations themselves, technical directorate, engineering (mechanical components, mechanical systems, structural, chemistry) OEM’s, internal regulator and ONR. Is that complex and multi-disciplinary enough for you?

Maybe not accoubtable overall but certainly have had my own area of accountability that was critical path and required a lot of collaboration. Hybrid working hasn’t really changed much other than where you sit and take a call, we don’t just pop out to stations every time we need to speak to someone or see something.

Or the development and mentoring of multiple early career employees and seen how their behaviours can be shaped by the interactions in the office?

No but I’ve been on the other end of that as I already said.

Once you have then I’d be keen to here how you found trying to do that with the team rarely, if ever, seeing eachother in person.

Did you read my post at all or just go straight for the froth? I have done it. It had challenges but nothing that wasn’t easily overcome. As a team (group head, mentor, mentee and others) everyone knew what was expected and it worked fine. I can count in one hand how many office days I’ve had with my team.

Maybe you should be asking yourself what you can do better instead of moaning at folk who have done it.

Over the past few years I’ve worked in a few different offices for extended periods of time and noticed definite geographic differences in the level of social interaction amongst colleagues. This is across teams of 10-20 folk

I’ve noticed these differences working in different teams even within the same company in the same location!

I’m not sure you could put it all down to geographic differences.

would this work to the detriment of folk like me

We definitely don’t employ anyone like you TJ

You don’t employ introverts?  Those who do not drink? What about those with caring responsibilities?  Can you not see how this would discriminate against them?  being frozen out of the team?  This is how the “old boys network” operates to the detriment of diverse and well functioning teams

Look at it from the other side TJ, is nobody allowed to have fun just because you don’t want to? Where I work we are 90% WFH but try to have unit meetings in person, and somebody generally organises a social event afterwards.  Attendance is entirely voluntary.  One of my staff is a bit “I don’t come to work to make friends” (yes, I had noticed) but I will put forward that it makes work a more pleasant place if people interact on a human person level.

social activity is fine to an extent – but if it becomes team building and networking its discriminatory against those who do not drink and those who have caring responsibilities – ie mainly women and muslims.  It creates an “old boys network”

but I will put forward that it makes work a more pleasant place if people interact on a human person level.

thats bang out of order.  You are creating pressure on that person to spend time with colleagues when not being paid.  You want them there you pay their time.

I’ve introduced a once a month night out after our monthly team meeting. Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere.

That genuinely sounds awful to me. When work is done I want to be with my family. I have to spend somewhere between 40 and 60 hours with people I work with each week. That’s enough for me. I’ll go on works do’s, attend conferences, leaving drinks etc but that sounds like some Butlins level enforced fun.

Maybe not accoubtable overall

So that’ll be a no then. Delivering small parts that are already well defined and highly driven by strict standards like the nuclear industry can be done like that but the concept phase in less rigidly regulated industries is very difficult to do fully remotely.

As you have come in to engineering late as you said was your early career in whatever field it was done in person? Could it be that you already have learned the behaviours that are expected through your earlier experience hence now just doing some cpd which can be done remotely?

We have a lot of grads and the difference in confidence, behaviours, ability to be in front of suppliers and customers is markedly different between those that do come in the office by thier own choice even a few times a month over those who won’t and have either never been in or only once or twice over the year.

I work for a very flexible company and we have no obligation to come in at all and I do cater for those who choose not to but I am beginning to escalate the issues this causes and the delays to work when we don’t get through the same amount of work in remote sessions that we do in the in person ones. These are quantifiable metrics that can be reported.

Where we will probably get to is come in for specific meetings and session and attendance in person will be non negotiable. That may be 2-3 days a week for 2-3 weeks at critical points of the project and then no requirement for attendance for a few months.

I’ve introduced a once a month night out after our monthly team meeting. Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere.

Haha , get ****. I’m an extrovert by nature with 24 years in the Army where team is everything and even we didn’t have this sort of bollocks.

I’d rather do Christmas day guard duty than that utter Webster’s bollocks.

Oh. Maybe it’s something you said… or didn’t say?

I (and i’m sure many others here) have got lifetime friends that I met at workplaces i’ve left in previous decades.

Well, you could read the other half of that post but OK. So have I. But would you consider it to be a large number?

Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere.

Back to mine for take-out from the Indian and then board games followed by a movie?

Read what I said properly TJ,  attendance at the in person work meeting is not mandatory can do hybrid, and the staff organise the social stuff themselves.   Nobody is making anybody do anything,  all I am saying is human interaction can be good, no need to call the unions.

TJ, your point re drinking and exclusion is utter tosh. One of my team is Muslim and is at every social event, doesn’t drink (obviously). Religion has nothing to do with attending social events. If you’re an introvert then the likelihood is you won’t be bothered either way about attending social events anyway.

One of my team is Muslim and is at every social event, doesn’t drink (obviously). Religion has nothing to do with attending social events.

… anecdotally.

I have a friend who is Muslim (well, I have several), he refuses to set foot inside a pub because within whatever strain of Islam he prescribes to the default assumption is that if he does then he will be drinking (or I suppose, exposed to or tacitly condoning alcohol). It’s caused… not a problem exactly, but it’s a consideration we have to accommodate when organising get-togethers involving Saj. We’d just go to Pizza Hut rather than the Cockwell Inn.

Also, other religions are available.

spooky – there have been tribunals and court cases over this.  Its discriminatory IF attending these events gets you in a better place at work.  What about those with childcare commitments?  I have worked with muslims who would never go to a place serving alcohol

hels – I read this as you were suggesting that person should go on the events

but I will put forward that it makes work a more pleasant place if people interact on a human person level.

I can see thats got an alternative reading perhaps as you meant ie a general point to us 🙂

Haha, fair point. Does Pizzahut not sell alcohol though?

TJ, I’m sure there has been. I think for the most part though the days of the ‘old boys club’ are pretty much over. Not saying certain people don’t get preferential treatment when it comes to promotions etc but it’s not because you happened to attend a social event or 2. I attend all of them and haven’t got anywhere!

You get the promotions because you are “one of the lads, a good one at that – you know the type you can have a  beer with at the end of the week”

Its just an insidious side effect.  As I say if its just socialising then not too bad but if its about team bonding / building / networking then its discriminatory.  You will be seen as not a team player

Yeah it’s not like the good olde days when you had to be a paid up member of the union to get the promotion.

From personal experience it’s not about being able to have a beer or whatnot, it’s about being able to schmooz with the upper management that gets you promoted. Being able to sound like you know what you’re talking about or voicing an opinion (even though it might be sh*te) and putting yourself in their faces gets you noticed. Not being genuinely good at your job, unfortunately.

So that’ll be a no then. Delivering small parts that are already well defined and highly driven by strict standards like the nuclear industry can be done like that but the concept phase in less rigidly regulated industries is very difficult to do fully remotely.

“Well defined” . L. M. F. A. O.

The standards may be. The problems absolutely are not. They’re baked into 40 year old systems which differ from station to station. Our concept phases are probably even harder as we can’t just throw stuff and see what sticks. We also have to justify absolutely everything

As you have come in to engineering late as you said was your early career in whatever field it was done in person?

Yes because I was a plant operator, kinda hard to do from home. Previous to that I did a merchant navy cadetship, see above.

I’ve done both extremes so I get that not every job is suited to it. I also get that you have to approach it with an open mind to make it work.

Look, you made an absolute statement, I gave you my experience which is at odds with that statement. Almost like, as already pointed out, this could be situational.

You don’t employ introverts? Those who do not drink? What about those with caring responsibilities? Can you not see how this would discriminate against them? being frozen out of the team? This is how the “old boys network” operates to the detriment of diverse and well functioning teams

All of that

Plus you’ve been very vocal in your pride at never working a second past your contracted hours.

I’ve been recruiting for the past few months. Got a recommendation for a candidate. Someone I actually recruited to a different company 6 years ago. Loads of experience. Way more qualified than any other candidate we’d seen a CV for or interviewed.

We interviewed them and it went great. Everyone really liked them. Then at the end of the interview they announced that they were only willing to work their contacted hours and not a minute more. Their work life balance was the absolute non negotiable for them. We completely respected that, and declined to make them an offer. The search continues.

We completely respected that, and declined to make them an offer.

Why?

You had the perfect candidate and expected them to work for free?

“Engineers were delayed in fixing an air traffic control meltdown that stranded more than 700,000 passengers because a critical member was working from home, an inquiry has concluded.”

““Having exhausted remote intervention options, it took 1.5 hours for the individual to arrive on site to perform the necessary full-system restart, which was not possible remotely.”

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/transport/article/air-traffic-control-nats-caa-report-louise-haigh-252sxqtbf

You had the perfect candidate and expected them to work for free?

if the role requires flexibility, they’re not perfect for it. Extra hours may well be compensated/given back in lieu?

Boarding bob – if you cannot complete your work in your working hours you have much bigger issues than refusing to employ a good candidate because they will not work for free.

Doesn’t it depend on what contracted hours means to Boardinbob? I’m not automatically assuming that means “you have to work extra hours for free” (although that seems likely) and that it could mean working the number of hours in your contract flexibly to meet the needs of the business. My employer has a number of teams that need to work as much put of normal office hours as in them, and would be impossible for someone to do their jobs if they stuck to our normal office hours.

I would find it unlikely that somebody who held their work life balance so dear would apply for a job knowing that it required such “flexibility” – especially if they have as much experience as stated.  Obviously we don’t know the full picture here, but in situations such as this, I think management don’t like the prospect of employing somebody who will refuse to be a yes man/woman, despite the fact that they know for a fact that they can do the job.

I’ve been recruiting for the past few months. Loads of experience. Way more qualified than any other candidate we’d seen a CV for or interviewed.

We interviewed them and it went great … We declined to make them an offer. The search continues.

Oof! That foots going to really hurt.

And I guessing your other employees will continue to hurt too as they absorb the extra work the person is being employed to do.

Unfortunately this is typical of how employers work, so full credit to BoardingBob for saying it aloud.

Unfortunately BoardingBobs work place sounds a great environment to build a toxic workplace where each employee tries to out do the other to gain BoardingBobs favour .. ouch!!

Boarding bob – if you cannot complete your work in your working hours you have much bigger issues than refusing to employ a good candidate because they will not work for free.

I must have missed the part where he said they were expecting it for free. Although given the comprehension of others on this thread. Perhaps I’m missing it in native English.

I’m contracted 8-4.30 but will regularly work on into later to accommodate occasional operational issues then take time back in lieu and I expect my team to do the same and its made clear for interview But I guess that’s because on many things a 12 hour delay till the next shift would be roughly $300k-1mil  in time cost alone due to 100-150 people being static as well as the machinery.

Although those with regular/anticipated OT are cash  compensated.

I do realise things were different in NHS. But we all know the mess that’s in.

And in interests of being transparent. I’ve a team of 14 – 2 who work from home -arranged under me with my support to do so both against an upper management who didnt want it to be so. I am also fully flexible with others in the team if they need to work from home occasionally for -appointments /boiler services/deliveries etc. The work gets done.  I find the shirkers show up in other ways….. – they usually show in the office shortly after probation so never get the memo about the flexibility……….

So you’ve not been accountable for the design of a large complex multidisciplinary system then?

It’s all i’ve done for the last 10 years, usually working ~2 days a week from home, and almost 2 years doing 4 or 5 days a week from home.

It’s been no problem at all for me and my teams. It has for many others though.

I absolutely want an employer that supports protecting my working hours but that is more from the insidious bleed to require just a few hours extra every week as par for the course, that is where you can point to a need for additional resource requirement.

If there is a specific project driven need to be somewhere else or push to get a thing completed to hit a timetable complete then that’s different. I’m contracted on 37.5 hours/week, this week I’ll be on 50 by the end of today, stuff to get done, need to align to a wider multi company team demand, has to be me there, and that’s fair enough, I’d not do it every week. i’ve had a couple of weeks like that this year. I’ll not get compensated with lieu payment but there is a recognition that at other points I might be  working “softer” to make up for things like this.

It’s a professional respect thing that, if both parties are comfortable to provide it, should run both ways in a good company/organisation. In Boardinbobs example company needs flexibility but employee won’t/can’t provide it then there isnt a fit, equally the employee may want flexibility and if the company won’t/can’t provide it it doesn’t work, it doesn’t make either party unreasonable as long as it is works both ways. People being argumentative about different ways of doing things is daft though.

“Engineers were delayed in fixing an air traffic control meltdown that stranded more than 700,000 passengers because a critical member was working from home, an inquiry has concluded.”

““Having exhausted remote intervention options, it took 1.5 hours for the individual to arrive on site to perform the necessary full-system restart, which was not possible remotely.”

So a management failure, insufficient critical cover? You need more than one person able to do the job and make sure there’s always someone on shift/on site. Not rocket science.

I mean, we have a legal obligation to make sure there is a first aider in each landscape. So we do.

Then at the end of the interview they announced that they were only willing to work their contacted hours and not a minute more.

Good on them. It sounds like they picked up on toxic culture during the process and made it clear they weren’t up for that. You made it clear in not offering what your workplace is really like. Likely a bullet dodged I’d say.