Remote working – increasing pushback from employers?

were you working through the pandemic

Yes, although it was my partner picking up the childcare or we had to tag team it. I was working for a very demanding digital agency with still crazy deadlines so couldn’t really drop things to look after kids

 it’s the one and only reason that productivity was down during the pandemic.

I dont recall anyone saying it was the only reason. but it was visibly obvious within our organisation that individuals productivity was down comparative to their peers doing the same job function without kids – and not for lack of them trying, But working round the kids at odd hours and playing catch up into the night was not a viable solution either.

I dont recall anyone saying it was the only reason.

It was the thing I quoted in the post you objected to.

ah ok so it was inferred as oppose to written.

We all muddled through lockdown but productivity was down in my team due to the lack of childcare.

Seems pretty “written” to me.

I don’t think anyone ever said it was the one and only reason, did they? I must have missed that post.

I would have had no comment had the phrasing been “…, in part due to the lack of childcare”

Someone’s never had to look after. A toddler long term and it shows.

It was a question not a statement. Can they still do the job? “No” is a viable answer.

There’s three in the house right now. I get shouted to come monitor them if my partner needs a wee. I know it’s hard work, I can’t get away fast enough. If I was sole carer even for one then my work would be impacted, but I’d have the luxury of offsetting that by working later. YMMV.

It’s not the same, that’s the issue with plenty of roles. The staff in question are on the phones. We have opening hours people call us, wiping arses and not answering the phone is a problem. Sitting at the phone when we’re shut not actually speaking to people is a problem.

I 100% agree with you here, I said this earlier I think. Some roles are time-sensitive such as answering phones during regular office hours, some are not.

But, if there’s two adults at home, or child care is in place, is this not a prefect candidate for a home-working role? The question from an employer shouldn’t be “do you have children?” (and you’d probably be on shaky legal ground there were you to ask) but rather as I said, “can you do your job just as effectively?”

No-one ever went into an office because they wanted a cuddle. Well, almost no-one. ?

@Cougar2 – I think I would strongly dispute this – both literally and metaphorically.  Literally – been a few threads on here over the years where young people are saying “how do you meet people without using dating apps”.  But metaphorically when I talk to my team what they miss most about the office is the social interaction, not just work but also pleasure, as simple as going to lunch with people and a chat, even meeting managers to talk through problems or concerns.  We’ve not lost many people since WFH became the norm but those we have I’ve felt “building up” to it because they had internal project, leadership or other challenges where actually a pint/coffee and a chat or even a hug would have avoided it.

Pre-covid it would not have been at all unusual for one of our nights out to end in entirely plutonic “hugs and goodbyes”.  Now, even if we do meet up that doesn’t happen, I miss it, not in some weird letching way (hugs were just as likely to be between hetrosexual colleagues of the same gender as any other combo) but just being in a team that was that close rather than functional drones sitting in front of laptop screens.

when I talk to my team what they miss most about the office is the social interaction, not just work but also pleasure, as simple as going to lunch with people and a chat, even meeting managers to talk through problems or concerns.

That sounds **** awful to me ? I’m pretty old fashioned and compartmentalised when it comes to work and social life. I like the people I work with but not to the degree where I’d miss them if I got the opportunity to work remotely full time.

Respectfully disagree.

I only started my “proper” engineering career about 16 months ago.

So you’ve not been accountable for the design of a large complex multidisciplinary system then? Or the development and mentoring of multiple early career employees and seen how their behaviours can be shaped by the interactions in the office?

Once you have then I’d be keen to here how you found trying to do that with the team rarely, if ever, seeing eachother in person.

Im with the funkmaster on this.

entirely plutonic “hugs

Remote and icy?

And smelling of methane

It also means I get more done as the two hours a day I’d spend commuting can be spent on working if needed. If I was forced in to the office then certain things just wouldn’t get done as I’d strictly stick to my hours.

Agree again.

When I’m office based I will be looking to leave 5pm sharp to avoid as much traffic as possible. Leaving at 5:10pm put an extra 15-20 minutes on my already 50 minute commute.

So things get delayed from around 4:30pm, whereas WFH I will often still be working until 5:30pm.

That sounds **** awful to me ? I’m pretty old fashioned and compartmentalised when it comes to work and social life. I like the people I work with but not to the degree where I’d miss them if I got the opportunity to work remotely full time.

Im just back from a holiday with 4 former colleagues I last worked with 6 years ago. Some folk do form really strong bonds with colleagues, some don’t.

Personally, the strong relationships I’ve built with colleagues over the years, both professionally and personally, has opened multiple doors for me when it came to career progression, so I’ve always seen the value in it.

I like the people I work with but not to the degree where I’d miss them if I got the opportunity to work remotely full time.

over the years I’ve come to regard you as people I met…

Seems pretty “written” to me.

Sigh. It was the case that most members of the team with young children were unable to work their contracted hours because of childcare. Me included. The idea that someone can wfh and look after a baby is for the birds.

nonsense

Ok maybe.

A young family makes most people a bit less productive WFH or commuting, probably more the former but on the other hand WFH has let us keep a couple of incredibly good members of my team we’d otherwise have lost post mat leave

We’re meant to do 60% office which I do,, but don’t insist on beyond show your face enough that everyone knows you who needs to and get seen a bit. Unless there’s a specific deal.

Sigh. It was the case that most members of the team with young children were unable to work their contracted hours because of childcare. Me included. The idea that someone can wfh and look after a baby is for the birds.

So… pretty much as written and interpreted then? No inference (as trail_rat suggested) required.

fwiw I have no particular horse in this race. No children, nor plans to have any, so, if anything, it suits my narrative better if all/any wfh productivity impairments could be put down to parenting.

Funkmaster & TJ – do you want to be be treated by your employer as automatons or have them understand you as an individual.  Have you never had a work related problem (technical or human) that was resolved by sitting down with your boss and discussing it?  Have you never gained some insight into other people’s lives from a chat whilst waiting for a meeting to start, the kettle to boil, etc?  That small talk can actually be triggers for solving problems, understanding people’s personalities, etc.    when I worked in an office I could tell you the names of all my staff’s partners, children, pets.  I could tell you roughly where they lived how they commute, what they were doing after work etc,  now I can tell you what is on the wall in their home office.  I’m not hankering after going back to the office but the grass is not always greener.  There have been weeks where I have not left the house at all.

I had good work relationships with folk at work.  They were not my friends, I kept my work and home life completely separate.  Work is work and home is home and never mix the two.  All that info about colleagues.  None of mine would know that about me, I knew none of that about them, I find that borderline creepy

Very different working environments tho

There have been weeks where I have not left the house at all..

I genuinely miss lockdown for this reason. Just me, Mrs F, the kids and the dog. Finish work, walk downstairs and get to spend quality time with my family. I’d take that over listening to Geoff from accounts talking about football.

I have great working relationships with the people I work with. They know some stuff about me and vice versa. I’ll go out for a drink after work occasionally. I’m doing so tonight actually as some people are leaving.

I’ll talk through work related problems with my boss and colleagues because it is part of work. I’d never discuss personal issues in any real detail. I’ve seen what can happen as a result at several places I’ve worked at.

It’s as if every person is an individual and blanket decrees about working patterns won’t suit everyone….

So… pretty much as written and interpreted then? No inference (as trail_rat suggested) required.s

He still hasn’t said all of his teams productivity dip has been down to that but he has quantified why he knows there was a productivity dip attributed to that single factor.

But as it suits your narrative as you have written. I can see why you are forcing that connection

It’s as if every person is an individual and blanket decrees about working patterns won’t suit everyone….

Bingo!

Not WFH exactly, but three remote sites that used to have monthly in-person meetings, now due to Teams and budget caps for travel, done via Teams. There is a definite silo mentality creeping in, and no longer feels like a team. So in-person has some benefits IMHO.

From my experience the people who campaign for working from home are the lazy work shy ones who will literally try anything to avoid doing any work. Seems there’s a lot more of these than I thought.

Its unhealthy in many ways and is another dreadful hangover from over zealous draconian covid “rules” where some people obviously had it way too good and don’t want to go back to actually having to do some work.

Not many if any will admit it but this is what wanting to work from home boils down to. No believes you, especially when you say things like “i get more done when I work from home”. Big red flag right there.

There’s some lazy workshy folk going under the radar in offices as well.

I’m wfh today – waiting for someone on my team to respond to my Teams request on how to resolve a problem, may take a reminder later to get a response.

At least when I was in the office yesterday and needed help the response was immediate. Even if it was still “not got a clue mate”

But as it suits your narrative as you have written. I can see why you are forcing that connection

Um, no? That’s the opposite of what I said.

The “we know what’s best for your social life and want to control it on your behalf” argument is uncomfortably dystopian for me. What next, are you going to arrange the seating plan on the basis of which friends you think I should make? Am I going to be overlooked for promotion if I don’t want to spend six hours every day smiling and nodding as tony from operations drones on about his personal life while distracting everyone from their work?

If people want to chose lines of work and workplaces on the basis of the potential for social interaction then that’s obviously fine, but mandating office attendance for that reason feels very weak.

Just wanted to add it has been an interesting thread to read and refreshing that for the most part people are willing to try and understand the pros and cons of both sides of the argument.

From my experience the people who campaign for working from home are the lazy work shy ones who will literally try anything to avoid doing any work. Seems there’s a lot more of these than I thought.

Its unhealthy in many ways and is another dreadful hangover from over zealous draconian covid “rules” where some people obviously had it way too good and don’t want to go back to actually having to do some work.

Not many if any will admit it but this is what wanting to work from home boils down to. No believes you, especially when you say things like “i get more done when I work from home”. Big red flag right there.

That’s in the running for biggest load of bollocks I’ve ever read on here and there is some stiff competition for that honour. Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? What’s unhealthy about it exactly? Why do you think it is lazy/workshy people?

I definitely get more done when working from home. Especially when it comes to writing reports or those shitty tasks that you always put off. Music on, head down, no distractions and get shit done. Trying to do that at work (office or warehouse) ain’t happening. That’s why hybrid works well for me. Add in the fact that I’m not commuting two hours each day and can have an extra hour in bed and I’m more refreshed and relaxed when starting work too.

jhinwxm

Clearly a troll post. 3/10 .. poor effort

Um, no? That’s the opposite of what I said.

You do seem quite keen on continuing an argument based on a false premise. I guess you have plenty of time while working from home.

No-one ever went into an office because they wanted a cuddle. Well, almost no-one.

@Cougar2 – I think I would strongly dispute this – both literally and metaphorically.

What I meant was, few people go into an office solely because they want a cuddle. They go in primarily to provide a service in exchange for a salary.

Riddle me this. How many former work colleagues are you still in regular contact with?

I was with the same company for 16 years and was well-liked (I know, I was shocked too), but everyone leaving a company always says the same thing, “keep in touch, here’s my personal email address” and are never heard from again. Despite having left several months prior I got invited to the informal Christmas do last year, but beyond that and impersonal ‘likes’ on Facebook I can probably count former colleagues who are friends without running out of fingers.

There is a definite silo mentality creeping in, and no longer feels like a team.

The problem I hit here was, for a while I was a Northerner in a team of Southerners. It wasn’t an issue that I was remote from my team, rather it was an issue because I was the only remote worker. We’d have Teams meetings specifically booked to thrash out jobs for the week / month, but they’d all sorted it out over the brew round ahead of the call so I got left with the scraps no-one else wanted.

From my experience the people who campaign for working from home are the lazy work shy ones who will literally try anything to avoid doing any work. Seems there’s a lot more of these than I thought.

I’m quite bad at keeping track of usernames. But sometimes a post appears which gives me pause to look back at who posted it. When I do I’m rarely shocked.

In the 21st century is it really reasonable to still insist that people endure this?

Really depends on the Job TBH, I can’t do my job with less than about 80% presence, my missus can do hers 100% from home but they have started insisting on whole team attendance on Mondays, which she keeps swerving and is increasingly getting bollocked for.

The thing is I don’t think I would enjoy 90 – 100% WFH, at the same time presentisim (a very specific form of bullying IMO) can seriously erode morale. People need to want to be in a work place, create the right environment/culture with a lack of judgement around how much time is spent in the office/at home and people will be able to strike the balance and work efficiently (IME/IMO)…

I was with the same company for 16 years and was well-liked (I know, I was shocked too), but everyone leaving a company always says the same thing, “keep in touch, here’s my personal email address” and are never heard from again.

Oh. Maybe it’s something you said… or didn’t say?

I (and i’m sure many others here) have got lifetime friends that I met at workplaces i’ve left in previous decades. In one case, one of my best friends now I met on recommendation of a colleague I worked with (remotely – he was in a different office)15 years ago.