Racism

I will put you down as a don’t know so 2 for racist and one don’t know?

🙄 was my answer not clear enough for you ?

Not sure I could have made it any clearer.

However ……

zimbo –
That’s two for “stupid question” and one for “stupid question, but let me explain…”

What Zimbo said.

If that’s clear enough for you ?

the only difference between “us” and “you” is we dont use the offensive terms even when the people are not there.
None of us do when they are.

You talking to me JY ?…….who’s “us” and “you” ?

Why is it ok for you to use the term **** when speaking to fellow whites, but not ok for someone else to use the term monkey when speaking to you?maybe he sees it as harmlees as you see the term ****

But that question has already been answered. OK, I’m guessing that you don’t like the answer, but what exactly is the point of asking the same question again ? Do you think that if you keep asking the question you will eventually get an answer that you actually like ? I don’t…..because you are going to get the same answer and you clearly don’t like that answer.

The term **** shop is used many people in a complete non-derogatory way with no intended racism. You might not like that, but that’s the way it is.

Terms such as ****, coon, jungle bunny, golliwog, etc, are highly offensive, and are used as insults by racists precisely because they are so offensive.

Someone who uses the term **** shop is not necessarily racist, someone who uses those other words is.

And there ends your lesson for today in colloquial english. I hope you go away having learnt something. Although I can see that it is terribly complicated for you.

On the subject of ****… I’m probably a bit behind the times and didn’t realise it’d lost its venom in some circles, til a mate said “I’m just nipping to the **** shop” Now a, he’s not a racist, and he’d be offended if you said he was, but b, the “**** shop” in question here was owned and run by an irish protestant. But to Stu, it’s still a **** shop regardless.

When Australia beat Pakistan in 1990 I was surprised that the sports headline was “we bash the ****.”
Seems it’s just an abbreviation in Australia.

My mate (born in Pakistan, lived in the US, then went home to start a tech company) views **** as a shortening of Pakistani and until 9/11 when people started using it as a term of abuse he never knew it could be anything other than that. Even since then, he is only bothered by use of it when it’s INTENDED as an insult.

[ insulting their mum gets their attention IME]

So, Junkyard, you knew a particular racial group is very offended when you insult their mum and used that insult against them. If we define racism as descrimination or insult based on racial characteristics you know what you are.

Given that the people you racially insulted were no doubt trying to rob you/forcefully sell you something/get money out of you by some other means because you were white then I suppose you were just countering racism with racism.

@zimbo, you went to Krakov and didn’t see any racism. Can I ask what colour your skin is?

I’m white, hence me having to say “see any” rather than “experience any”. I appreciate it may be hard to “see” signs of racism in a four day holiday, but I didn’t witness any abuse of the non-white people I saw there, and didn’t see racist grafitti (that I understood – I don’t speak Polish). My point was that I have no reason to believe that Polish society is innately any more racist than our own – I know next to nothing about Poland so couldn’t possibly conclude that it is. And I didn’t want Marcin to think that I was extrapolating comments about racism in football stadia to Poland as a whole. That would have been naive and ignorantly predjudiced of me.

So, Junkyard, you knew a particular racial group is very offended when you insult their mum and used that insult against them

Understanding a culture is not racism. Believing in the superiority of your race over another is racism.

I’ve experienced racism first hand at the Notting Hill Carnival when the Nation of Islam float wouldn’t give me one of the leaflets they were handing out to anyone who didn’t have white skin, and I watched them get angrier when I happily tried putting a donation in their coffers. It really boiled their racist piss.

I’m starting to think that either I live on another planet to some of the people on this thread, or they want to play silly bollox by pretending that they don’t understand commonsense

Has someone been swapping ernie’s Morning Star for the Daily Mail?

there shouldn’t be anything more sinister about the word **** than there is with the word aussie, if it is used to describe people from pakistan.

but it isn’t is it ? it’s used as a generic term for anyone with brown skin that looks like they’re from asia – indians, iraqis, sri lankans.

i lived amongst sikh and hindu communities in birmingham and i can guarantee anyone that the word **** was considered offensive and racist.

so i don’t use it.

ernie:

Similarly I have never used the term ‘carpet muncher’ when talking to my lesbian sister, because I don’t want to offend her, but it’s a term which I otherwise freely use.

Of course if you or JY were to use the term **** then that would be completely unacceptable, because you both very clearly see it as a racist insult, whatever the circumstances.

So, racism baaaad, sexism gooood, eh?

When I moved to London and first started working with black people I was surprised to learn that the caribbeans didn’t like the Africans ( due to the Africans selling them to the slavers apparently).
Also the hierarchy that existed due to skin tone. (lightest at the top)
There were adverts on the radio for skin lightening creams.

Terms such as ****, coon, jungle bunny, golliwog, etc, are highly offensive, and are used as insults by racists precisely because they are so offensive.

But maybe this Poiish guy was using the term ‘monkey’ in a non-racist way and he wasn’t aware that it is offensive. I find it strange, but i also find it strange that you think **** isn’t offensive, even if followed by the word ‘shop’. I wasn’l looking for an answer i liked, i just wasn’t clear. I mean the answer is clearly ‘yes’. I just found it hard to believe.

I suppose this is aimed at ernie but I’m also making a general point. I physically flinch whenever I hear someone use the term **** or **** shop or going down the chinkys. Not because I’m a sensitive flower but because the terms are abhorrent – they are no longer acceptable, on a building site or anywhere else. I’m a quarter Chinese and have worked in loads of crappy jobs but wouldn’t expect to hear phrases like that bandied about by either friends or colleagues.

zimbo – Member
Yeah sorry Marcin, I should have added to my post that I was in Krakow recently, and I saw no signs whatsoever of overt racism. I was referring only to the football-based racism, and I don’t for a minute imagine that’s representative of most fans, and certainly not of the general population of Poland. Apologies.

Thank you, no offence taken. I just found it suprising how much negativity there is surrounding Euro cup. I would have thought that after John Terry’s scandal, BBC and British public would be less accusing towards others.
After all, when Olisadebe (of African origin) played for Polish team, he never experienced any racist comments from his team mates or fans.
Marcin

Glitchaki

til a mate said “I’m just nipping to the **** shop” Now a, he’s not a racist, and he’d be offended if you said he was, but b, the “**** shop” in question here was owned and run by an irish protestant. But to Stu, it’s still a **** shop regardless.

I can well believe that, as for many people it describes a type of shop rather than provide an accurate statement of the shopkeeper, it’s replaced the term corner shop which was often used even if the shop wasn’t on a corner. I don’t know of any late opening convenience stores which are white owned so haven’t experienced that anomaly.

It reminds how many years ago when I first started working on building sites and the overwhelming majority of groundworkers were Irish, it was perfectly normal and acceptable to call a groundworker a “paddy”, even if they weren’t actually Irish, or even vaguely Irish.

It might be worth pointing out that imo using the word **** in a general sense is quite different to using it in the context of a shop, and all my points refer to it in that context of a shop. Saying “I’m popping down to the **** shop” is quite different to saying “this **** gave me a parking ticket”. It all depends on intent and what the speaker wants to imply. Such subtleties might seem terribly complicated but the whole issue is greatly helped if liberal quantities of commonsense is applied.

BTW I think that falsely accusing people of racism based on the way they speak is not only unjust but can also be hugely damaging and counterproductive. Because it’s not just a case that people get pissed off as a result of being lectured by sanctimonious Guardian readers concerning what words they can use and what words they can’t use, but because it also plays right into the hands of racist organisations such as the BNP.

The BNP vehemently and absurdly denies that they are racists. And a surprising amount of people accept this truly absurd claim by the BNP. The fact that the PC brigade goes around accusing people willy nilly of being racist undoubtedly contributes to this misconception about the BNP. People think “I’ve been accused of being racist but I’m not, I don’t believe them when they say the BNP is really racist”.

Racism is a very real issue which needs to be seriously tackled, looking for it where it doesn’t exist helps no one other than racists.

I just found it suprising how much negativity there is surrounding Euro cup. I would have thought that after John Terry’s scandal, BBC and British public would be less accusing towards others

I agree. I argued with a guy at work that that film could have been made in lots of countries. I mean, look at the BNP here. Those pr*cks don’t speak for England, as I’m sure the pr*cks in the BBC film don’t speak for Poland or the Ukraine. The hypocrisy is a bit sickening, particularly given the Terry affair. But let’s hope the Euros help in driving any latent or patent racism out of any country they’re held in.

Because it’s not just a case that people get pissed off as a result of being lectured by sanctimonious Guardian readers concerning what words they can use and what words they can’t use

A lot of the people I know who visit the “**** shop” also quite often refer to the “**** in the woodpile”. In a carefree, non-racist way of course (?). How does that figure in the lynchinctionary?

lynchinctionary

The language and words I am referring to, is spoken by, and their definition understood by, a huge quantity of people numbering in the millions. They are not words which I have personally invented or personally defined. Despite your obvious attempt to personalise the issue.

I’m getting slightly bored arguing with daft herberts now, so I think I’ll probably leave you to get on with congratulating each other on how well you speak and how terribly politically correct you all are.

🙂

They are not words which I have personally invented

I know. I’m asking how you interpret that phrase; do you find it acceptable or not? The zimboictionary says it’s a “no”.

We white Anglo-Saxons are the only people in the world with a collective guilt about racism; everywhere else in the world racism is alive and kicking. Black Africans dislike anybody not from their own tribe, religion or country and certainly anybody Chinese or Indian. You should have seen the faces on the staff when I took some African visitors into a Pakistani restaurant in Manchester last Friday; they scowled and stared at us and we’d have walked out if we hadn’t been so hungry. Arabs and Turks against Kurds, Serbs against just about anybody, Afghans against Hazaras, Chinese against Tibetans, you name it, every country, group or race hates somebody else irrationally.

So why do we beat ourselves up about it? I’m not condoning racism, I’m simply asking why we have such a bad conscience about it while the rest of the world carries on blithely.

So why do we beat ourselves up about it?

Because it’s wrong? We have to make decisions about how we behave in society and to most people, racism needs to be outlawed. I don’t really think the rest of the world “carries on blithely”, but I’d agree that it isn’t maybe as high up the agenda as it is here. And some of those examples you quote may be politically based, rather than out and out racism.

So why do we beat ourselves up about it? I’m not condoning racism, I’m simply asking why we have such a bad conscience about it while the rest of the world carries on blithely.

Well someone’s got to set a benchmark for the foreigners to look up too.

BTW I think that falsely accusing people of racism based on the way they speak is not only unjust but can also be hugely damaging and counterproductive.

You mean like using the word ‘monkeys’?

Is it racist to object to racist east European migrants settling in the UK?

You mean like using the word ‘monkeys’?

The word monkey was used in a derogatory context to criticise and imply racial ridicule, it doesn’t in anyway compared with saying “there’s a really good **** shop round the corner that even does takeaway tea”, which is very clearly not designed to be derogatory, criticise, or imply racial ridicule.

I can see that it is all a tad too complicated for you to understand SamCooke, but you just keep asking the same question over, and over, and over again, I find your daftness mildly amusing.

Is it racist to object to racist east European migrants settling in the UK?

That’s one for Radio 4’s Moral Maze. Us plebs on here will never get to the bottom of that!

Just a thought, you’re not carpet-muncher yourself, are you, ernie?

So, Junkyard, you knew a particular racial group is very offended when you insult their mum and used that insult against them.

I have no idea what racial group they identified themseleves with- is their some that dont mind you insulting their mum?

If we define racism as descrimination or insult based on racial characteristics you know what you are.

We would need to establish that it is a racial characteristics to be offended when someone insults your mother – have we? Given they were a different colour from me it would not be hard to come up with some racial insult as you yourself managed. As i avoided this I fail to see why mine was racist.

Given that the people you racially insulted were no doubt trying to rob you/forcefully sell you something/get money out of you by some other means because you were white then I suppose you were just countering racism with racism.

When they were trying to get money out of me it was because i was richer than them rather than my skin colour …they did the exact same thing to the black people I was with.

As for calling this racism it is both desperate and pathetic as an argument not least because I managed to offend them without mentioning their race unlike you.

as for **** what TM and the dictionary says

Pak·i (pk)
n. pl. Pak·is Chiefly British Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a person of Pakistani or South Asian birth or descent.
[Short for Pakistani.]

Saying “I’m popping down to the **** shop” is quite different to saying “this **** gave me a parking ticket”. It all depends on intent and what the speaker wants to imply. Such subtleties might seem terribly complicated but the whole issue is greatly helped if liberal quantities of commonsense is applied.

its not complicated the term **** is not needed and the meaning is offensive -it why you wont use it to their face some would call this hypocrisy but i am sure you have a “common sense” reason for this. I also hope you would not challenge the second example lest you also manage to fuel the misconception that the BNP are not racist which is off course without doubt the fault of guardian readers everywhere. 🙄

You may use the word **** as you wish but you have what it means , in this country, and it is an offensive term and not just a shortening of a word. In the context of going to the shop the word **** is superfluous so why bother doing it?

I dont understand why ernie thinks that using a derogatory term for an asian is not racist but anyone who uses a derogatory word for a black person is racist. It is even less clear why this is the fault of guardian readers who lead to the rise of the BNP being perceived as non racist.
Once more your dislike of the liberal left has reduced your [ usually superb and well reasoned] argument to an absurdity.

I do agree that people can use words and not be a racist but I struggle to see why you would use derogatory words for races if you are not a racist. Conversely the BNP is very careful to avoid using the terms as it would make it easier to prove they were racist rather than nationalistic. I suspect that is also the fault of the guardianistas that even the BNP know some words are racist and best to avoid them lest they make it obvious they are racist rather than retain the façade that they are nationalistic.

Well said Ian, as a Engilsh ‘****’, I’d like to think we are and that’s why we make it such a big issue.

So Earnie gets pissed off when a Polish guy calls black people monkeys by has no qualms calling people ****, Chinks, Carpet Lickers or whatever else but not to thier faces as that’s rude. So there’s no difference is there? Why don’t do go round to the shop and tell them they’re such good **** for offering take away tea.

The polish guy was speaking white man to white man, I doubt he’d call a black person a monkey to thier face, bit like you. Heres a suggestion, why not just learn the shops name? But I suppose that takes too much effort.

Failing that, I’ve always found that putting ‘no offence’ at the end of one of these terms nullifies any offence.

Zimbo, I asked because I was curious. My brother spent a summer in Poland travelling and teaching convorsational English to kids at summer camps, with his then girlfriend (who’s white). He said he had a great time, he never mentioned he was treated differently, everyone they met seemed genuinely interested.

Racism does exist all over the world, that is true and we as a country are still in the early stages of dealing with ours. But whilst there’s **** shops and chinkys in every town, we still have a long way to go. Because there’s nothing wrong with calling them as such is there, it’s just normal innit, Earnie?

.

unlike you

I didn’t resort to insulting anybody unlike you, Junkyard.

It’s easy not being racist in countries where racism is disapproved of by the majority and tolerance is the norm. Now visit anywhere in North Africa as an independant traveller where streetwise = racist = safety. I think some people on this thread might realise they are perfectly capable of being racist when the circumstances demand it.

When i replied to this pointing out I had been there and not been racist I made the mistake of assuming you had been there and been streetwise racist and safe. so you have never been and have no personal knowledge of this…thanks for sharing..i have never been to France [ i have off course] can I describe it for you?

If you had not done any of this or ever been racist when the circumstances demand [ I dont think it ever does ] then really what was your point?

Threads on this forum should self-destruct and auto-lock after the first 25 comments or when two or more ‘Big Hitters’ have contributed, whichever happens first.

I must say, I never knew there were shops where one could go and buy ****…

So Earnie gets pissed off when a Polish guy calls black people monkeys by has no qualms calling people ****, Chinks, …….

Why don’t you read my posts if you are going to comment on them – that would make sense would it not?

If you had read them then you would have seen that I clearly state that the word **** used as a general term is unacceptable as it is almost always intended to be insult. I don’t mention anything at all about “chinks” …….you just made that up to embellish your criticism of me.

.

….you wont use it to their face some would call this hypocrisy….

🙂 Yes, tailoring your language to suite those present is hypocrisy and has nothing to do with good manners.

In acts of unparalleled hypocrisy I, like millions of others, am constantly changing the words I use depending on the target audience. You on the other hand JY, undoubtedly always use exactly the same polite words whatever the circumstances and whoever the audience – hypocrisy is not for you. Conversations with you is no doubt like enjoying a chat and cup of tea with the vicar.

However in much of the rest of Britain things are rather different and people often use language and words which they, very hypocritically, wouldn’t use if talking in front of certain other people.

A classic example of this, and one which I regularly experience, is how many people working in construction will use the F word and C word with gay abandon, and no one, including management, bats an eyelid. However if a lady appears on site, maybe as the client or potential buyer or sales lady, whatever, such talk tends to suddenly stop, failure to do so can result in a serious reprimand from management.

Yes, the extremely sexist “not in front of ladies” attitude is still very widespread, to the disgust of politically correct Guardian readers no doubt. Strangely enough though there is generally a slightly more relaxed attitude to the “not in front of ladies” rule in the case of canteen ladies, I guess that rather ‘hypocritically’ a social class consideration is applied.

You might also be horrified to learn JY, that there is also a great deal of lighthearted banter in these morally decadent environments which is based on sexual orientation and ethnicity. With much talk of “don’t be such a poof” or the example of the Nigerian labour who would amuse me by responding to my requests with “you can kiss my black arse mate, the colonial days are over”.

Yes, millions of people use words and expressions which they would never repeat at the vicarage tea party, call that hypocrisy if you will, but it doesn’t automatically translate into meaning that they are intended to be insulting and derogatory.

Some of the words used in this post may not mean you are a racist, but the level of ignorance here is amazing.

The N word is no different to the P’ word – as they are both disgusting.

I’m going to the local shop and it is run by a person/human.