Please explain Veganism to me . . .

Yes and if you follow the speciesist logic you’d ask why the same doesn’t apply to humans. The philosophical and ethical side of this is quite interesting. The classic thought experiment often cited is that using this logic, if a superior alien species were to come and start farming humans for meat, would we as a species simply accept our part in the natural order, or would we think it unethical?

The term “speciesist” is such a bollocks word, thrown about by people with no real grasp of the concept. Different forms of life have different levels of consciousness of their own imminent demise, humans or monkeys (or any number of other higher order animals, eg dolphins and elephants) being sent to a slaughterhouse would soon work out what their fate was. Sending chickens or even 7 week old babies 😈 to a slaughterhouse…. is different….. they do not understand the circumstances, have no agency and won’t know what hit them before they are rendered unconscious. Value cannot exist in the absence of consciousness.

A superior alien race would understand this basic concept….

Not even this one?

How many vegans here are pro-abortion?

Might not be controversial but it’s not very philosophically astute, or even correct.

That’s just an assertion.

We’ve tried veggie cat food. Unsurprisingly they’re not interested.

Cats are carnivores. I may be misremembering, but I seem to remember it’s considered animal cruelty to feed them a vegetarian diet.

Also, they need taurine or they go blind (something to do with the optic nerve IIRC). This is why you can’t feed them on dog food – it doesn’t have taurine, cat food does.

How many vegans here are pro-abortion?

I know there’s a lot of random hate for vegans, but suggesting they eat their young is a bit much.

Sending chickens or even 7 week old babies to a slaughterhouse…. is different….. they do not understand the circumstances, have no agency and won’t know what hit them before they are rendered unconscious.

I take it you’ve never been to a slaughter house then…It doesn’t take the sheep, cows, pigs, long to work out what’s going on in their world.

Chicken plant where a friend works recently fitted a Co2 tank to render the birds unconscious before they’re stunned…stops them thrashing about so much, and they’ve managed to increase through put by about 5% on a good day…4/5th largest plant in the UK (can never remember), and the (edit) process about 2.5 million birds a week.

can anybody explain this forum ? people ask about bikes or rides and there’s a few responses.Somebody asks a practicl question abvout his daughter’s diet /health and theres nine pages of argument about the content of each other’s stomachs .

great isn’t it?

can anybody explain this forum ?

Imagine the entire subscribed readership of ‘Horse & Hound’ and ‘Top Gear’ clamouring down the local pub, all half-cut after having spunked a small fortune on a new niche bike, air rifle and VW van.

And then a bearded vegan walks in…*

*See also that video clip of cyclist appearing on the Alan Titchmarsh show. 😉

I know there’s a lot of random hate for vegans, but suggesting they eat their young is a bit much

I did get invited to a placenta party of a vegan couple I know who were happy to eat it as nothing suffered

I declined explaining that if i was to start eating meat I would not be starting with her placenta. They were moderately offended by my refusal. FWIW a few meat eaters declined as well. Apparently it was not that nice anyway.

They did not eat the baby
There are still more posts on bike than chat

It may be that we all tend to agree on what is good riding but we do get tons on wheel size or man made v natural and where tp put your bik on the road

I take it you’ve never been to a slaughter house then…It doesn’t take the sheep, cows, pigs, long to work out what’s going on in their world

I was talking hypothetically.

Also, they need taurine or they go blind (something to do with the optic nerve IIRC). This is why you can’t feed them on dog food – it doesn’t have taurine, cat food does.

I wasn’t aware of that, but I’ve never tried to feed them dog food anyway so it’s a moot point. I’m not sure how it would be cruel to give a cat veggie cat food (there’s a lot of it about) if you can get them to eat it. We tried years ago, and found that the average cat would rather starve to death than eat it, so now we don’t bother.

I was talking hypothetically.

You really were not you claimed they would not notice when the reality is they do

How many vegans here are pro-abortion?

i don’t think many people are pro-abortion.
i’m absolutely pro-choice.

Please explain Veganism to me

Then…

I did get invited to a placenta party of a vegan couple I know

That’s explained it!

I’ve been following the production of synthetic meat with interest, as a vege for nearly 30 years I wonder whether I would eat it or if I could not get past the association with a piece of a being.

Junkyard – lazarus

for the sake of being tolerant to other peoples opinion,

that was clearly what your post was all about you really have to be taking the piss here

It’s also not infanticide, whilst a 7 week old human is a baby, a 7 week old Chicken is not a chick. We shouldn’t humanise animals, they are not humans.

Are you being deliberately thick here?
I never said that I simply pointed out that if i did this with a child you think it is kinder than not having the child at all as they got the 7 weeks of life before i kill them . Very few, if any, would think what I did kinder than not having a child. Your argument is crap.

As for the rest you have just got to be trolling – their goals align with ours

Nope, no trolling here, but I’m happy to discuss the issue without resorting to petty insults.

Have you fully considered your position, have you really considered what an Animal is? Do you think they have emotions, hopes and dreams for the future, do they understand the concept of life or death, because animals at Livestocks levels don’t – it’s easy to humanise them, bestow attributes on them that they don’t have. They don’t care about dying, because they have no concept of it. What they can feel is pain, the stress of being hunted, hunger and thirst – none of which livestock suffer.

Ah, I imagine being hypothetically killed in a hypothetical slaughter house is a lot less stressful than the real thing.

P-Jay – Member

…have you really considered what an Animal is? Do you think they have emotions…

yes.

…do they understand the concept of life or death,

yes again.

(‘animals’ and ‘they’ covers quite a lot of ground, an understandable short-cut for the purposes of typed conversation, i hope you’ll accept my simplistic answers)

They don’t care about dying, because they have no concept of it.

Neither do newborn human babies, yet quite rightly we don’t kill and eat them.

There are still more posts on bike than chat

Actually, I can answer this.

The bike forum attracts more threads than the chat forum; just a shade under double the amount. However, the chat forum tends to have longer threads, which stands to reason as it’s more likely to house lengthy discussions; the average thread length is almost double.

As the mathematicians amongst us will have worked out, that equates to the a similar of posts on both forums. They’re actually startlingly close – three million posts on both forums. There are more posts on the bike threads but not by much, there’s a few thousand in it.

I’m happy to discuss the issue without resorting to petty insults

No you really are not

Okay so following on from the comments on the previous page… I’m thinking that vegans who agree, in principle, with what I said (i.e. reasonable people) would do more good for condition, and in fact the public perception of farming for meat, if they were to only eat meat from animals that had been loved/cared for properly.

This would mean that instead of being marginalised, misunderstood and generally looked upon as having a bit of a screw loose they would be seen as normal people, but principled and who care deeply for animal welfare i.e. the sort of people that one might hold in high regard and look up to.

It strikes me that veganism is too extreme, too detached from the norm, to garner the respect of those who maybe need a little help to see the error of their ways. More good would be done if they campaigned for greater access to (or even just bought into) high welfare meat and the abolition of intensive farming. As it is I can’t see what good being vegan is doing for all the animals that are still suffering

What you are is one of the folks who insults folks then mounts a high horse of indignation when they insult you back.

Have you fully considered your position, have you really considered what an Animal is?

No, never. I just became a vegan on whim and maintained a meat free diet for the last 35 years without any thought . Oh feel the respect in that question eh 🙄

Do you think they have emotions, hopes and dreams for the future, do they understand the concept of life or death,

Do you think I have said any of this – why are you beating a straw man [ nods to aracer] to death?

They don’t care about dying, because they have no concept of it.

They really do “care” about not dying. Every species tries to avoid this on either the individual or the collective level. Their whole existence is geared towards the prevention of death. Of course they are not sat around worrying about being farmed and imminent death, then again neither would a baby. However sheep know they are prey. they do get startled. They do move from the woods at night to the open field to avoid prey. Are they worried ? No idea but they do react. IMHO ignorance of what is coming does not make it less bad when you kill something. You are free to not care but your naive view that they are happy and their survival is aligned to our interest is naive at best.

What they can feel is pain, the stress of being hunted, hunger and thirst – none of which livestock suffer.

Yes they live a pain free existence and no mistake
Again your views are just some distorted lady bird fantasy that animals are ours to do as we please with them whilst pretending that we can somehow kill a billion chicken a year in the Uk without any suffering happening and them all living happy un stressed lives.
I think you need this distortion to make it acceptable to you to eat them but it does not make it true

three million posts on both forums

Someone can see all the banned/deleted posts then

Would that number skew it to chat?

Just wondered assuming you can answer that but its an academic point

Dunno TBH. I might see if I can work it out, but in the grand scheme of things it’s probably a very small percentage.

Feeding a cat a vegetable diet is problematic because the amino acid balence in vegetable proteins causes alkaline conditions in the digestive system and leaves te cat vulnerable to urinary tract infections. If a food is properly formulated to avoid this (and contains synthetic taurine, as all commercial catfoods do anyway)then there is no nutritional reason why a cat can’t eat a vegan diet. However, they are fussy buggers and possibly wouldn’t eat it (when they can go next door). (Personally, I wouldn’t keep a cat anyway.)

Trying to claim that animals in industrial meat production don’t suffer or fear dying is pretty ridiculous. However, what about game?

It gets to lead a pretty happy life living wild, then gets shot in the head unawares (most of the time). I reckon that’s got to rank as pretty ethical and is arguably a better way to go than old age/disease. Especially if they are being killed to manage overpopulation and the meat is almost a by-product.

I’m not going to get into the moral implications of someone being vegan but owning four cats (275 million prey animals including 54 million birds a year killed by domestic cats – I bet a fair number tortured before death too) because no doubt I’ll get accused of being an awful person. 😉

I’m not going to get into the moral implications of someone being vegan but owning four cats

Yup, like I said it’s a contradiction. In an ideal world stupid people wouldn’t allow their pet cats to breed, and breeding them commercially would be banned. However it’s not and people are stupid so we are left with lots of cats who need homes. At the end of the day it’s not the cat’s fault there are stupid/greedy humans who think it’s a great idea to bring them into the world.

Better than that grum, game meat is often a necessary crop protection by-product of vegetable and grain production.

Rabbits, deer, hares, wood pigeon – all of them need controlling in order to provide food for vegetarians and vegans, and what’s best is that killing them can provide hours of bloody good fun too 😀

Of course, that’s before we get in to the widespread poisoning of rodents and the ecological disaster of fertilisers and pesticides sprayed around the countryside in order to make sure these veggies get their dinner.

What does cat taste like?

What does cat taste like?

Saltier than golden eagle, but a bit more pungent than hen harrier.

😆

I heard it was like a cross between a baby robin and a childs face

Also, they need taurine or they go blind (something to do with the optic nerve IIRC).

Ahh, that’ll be why Tiddles is always hassling me to buy Red Bull when I go to Tesco.

Ninfan did you miss the bit at the beginning when pretty much every veggie/vegan on here said they couldn’t care less what you lot eat? Yet still you feel the need to display your meat eating credentials in the most graphic and provocative way possible. Carry on though. It’s quite amusing.

Eh? Nowt to do with what I eat – it’s what has to be killed in order to provide your vegetables that is the issue.

Don’t you get it? Not eating meat yourself doesn’t stop animals being killed in order to put food on your table – in fact it’s absolutely widespread, your moral highground is built on the corpses of dead animals.

Yet the vegans still feel the need to post pictures and videos of animals suffering in a graphic way blah blah blah… I’m assuming those that posted such photos of chickens in a macerator don’t care that I eat the chickens that got diverted the other way?

I don’t care what people eat. I’ve eaten rat, armadillo and tapir.

But if people are going to cut out something from their diet, and someone’s teenage daughter has chosen to do the same… how about giving suggestions as to what easy, tasty nutritious options there are as a replacement? so they don’t end up on a toast+jam diet whilst claiming to be vegan.

To repeat what daz said two posts ago we dont care what you eat

http://www.viva.org.uk/going-vegetarian-vegan

WOw the internet what a resource and I fell certain that a caring, intelligent and sensitive person like you will be giving it lots of thought

your moral highground is built on the corpses of dead animals.

I’m not claiming any moral highground. Funny though that you perceive it that way. You can forgive the vegans and veggies who do claim the moral high ground though as they are constantly being told by the likes of you that that’s the case. 🙂

I really couldnt imaging life without the likes of bacon, lamb, juicy steak, sausages and not to forget crackling. Oh and black pudding thats some good eating. I’m hungry now.

Each to their own, but i do get the feeling that vegans/vegetarians do try to push it on others.

Plus i don’t think its 100% possible to avoid products that use animal products. So where do they stand then.

I really couldnt imaging life without the likes of bacon, lamb, juicy steak, sausages and not to forget crackling. Oh and black pudding thats some good eating. I’m hungry now.

Each to their own, but i do get the feeling that vegans/vegetarians do try to push it on others.iron much?