Pidcock/Ineos Rift – what’s up?

It’s a shame that Ineos haven’t been able to make something happen for perhaps the most exciting UK bike racer of the moment. Not sure that they’ve ever really had a plan for him. Is that TP wanting to ride XC as well as road. Or is it Ineos have lost their way? (they don’t seem to be getting the most out of Hayter and Tarling either). But back in Sky plumage, they couldn’t make it work for Cav either, and he did much better elsewhere.

Hayter has gone to quickstep as of next season. He was actually Pidcock’s replacement at the weekend (he DNF’d), so presumably is leaving on better terms.

Hayter is exceptionally strong but has gotten a bit lost with his positioning in the peloton – change of scenery and hopefully some wins will get him back on track. Remco struggled with this initially, current Belgian champion De Lie is a work in progress in this dept – it’s just hard as balls to navigate the pro peloton in a WT race.

Tarling is 20 y/o and looking amazing tbh – one of the few things Ineos have got right recently.

Tarling is 20 y/o and looking amazing tbh – one of the few things Ineos have got right recently.

He’s clearly an incredible talent but listening to his recent interviews makes you wonder how much support he getting with the mental aspects. He sounds completely beaten up already.

Ineos appear to be a sinking ship.

I’m friends with a recently retired pro who knows a few people in and around the Ineos set-up. He’s told me that basically, it’s all gone to pot since Dave B and Rod Ellingworth stepped away. Too many decision makers, no clear direction and no long term plans or strategies. He said the biggest sign is that Luke Rowe, someone who was always going to be a great DS and had been earmarked for a leadership role in the team once he retires, has left to be a DS at Decathlon AG2R La Mondiale.

Steve Cummings is, politely, a very difficult person to work with and not someone Dave B would have ever hired either.

On Pidcock, again, he’s a difficult character, though no worse than many others, and apparently they don’t really know what to do with him. He (again, apparently) wants to target the classics, some CX and some MTB, where Ineos see/saw GC potential in him so pushed him that way. This is largely what’s forced him to move.

@crazy-legs. You make good points regarding Thomas and Wiggins, Thomas especially was a formidable one-day rider before he turned into a GC man, but he also showed he had the stage-race fatigue resistance as a domestique before he made that transition. And Wiggins was always a formidable TTer which Pidcock isn’t. MVDP and WVA are both multi-disciplinary, but they’re not targetting GC. I just can’t see it for a 60kg guy like Pidcock, although Bardet has a number of grand tour podia to prove me wrong. I was also factually incorrect about his 1-week results as he has several top tens this season alone, albeit several minutes down on GC on them all by the end.

However he’s already won Amstel (some say twice, the one that never was “beating” WVA) and Strade, so he could conceivably win a monument if he focusses on one-day racing. If I were him I’d be going that way rather than chasing grand tours.

Radcliffe bought at top of the market and it’s all falling apart, which isn’t helped by the fact that Visma et al have caught and overtaken them organisationally (and literally on the road). Problem is that road bike racing fans aren’t bothered about teams, they are rider focused. I don’t bame TP for going but I hope Tarling doesn’t get wasted

Hayter is exceptionally strong but has gotten a bit lost with his positioning in the peloton – change of scenery and hopefully some wins will get him back on track.

Ethan Hayter, yes.

Ineos also lost the very talented Leo Hayter who had a really bad patch with mental health issues and depression – he posted quite openly about it on his blog and social media after a long period of coming to terms with it. Hopefully he’s on the mend now but it’s another crack in the Ineos armour losing a rider like Leo.

Frustratingly, it doesn’t seem like he’s kicked on since joining Ineos, considering the results he achieved when he was younger. It was probably a bad move to begin with.

 I just can’t see it for a 60kg guy like Pidcock,

Guess what Jonas Vingegaard weighs… yes, 60kg. He’ll never be competitive on GC either :-)

Vingegaard a slightly better example than Bardet then! I’ll bow out of this debate I reckon.

where Ineos see/saw GC potential in him so pushed him that way

Have Sky/Ineos ever seen anything else? Do I remember Cav delivering water bottles and surfing wheels in sprint finales at the height of his powers in World Champion’s stripes?

Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that? Nino schurter has made a pretty remarkable living out of just solely doing  MTB, probably not GC wages at a top road team but a pretty penny all the same

And the way TP can just turn up and win means it pretty sure he could/should/would be world number one for a pretty long time

Money…doesn’t really matter how well Nino has done, it is probably still less than TP is making…

Probably about €2.5m difference between a top XC rider and a GC/ high end road team leader.

I’d like to see TP on a DH bike in the off-season. Just for the s&g.

Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that? Nino schurter has made a pretty remarkable living out of just solely doing MTB, probably not GC wages at a top road team but a pretty penny all the same

I think between XC and cyclo-cross he’d do pretty well for himself and maybe give him a bit more fun. I’m sure he’s thought of it more than once, but I guess something stops him.

His road problem is, if Pogi is racing, we’ll he’s P2, if Pogi ain’t there he’s got WvA turning up, or MvdP, or even Remco.

Sure on his best days he can play with them guys, but I think he needs to leave ineos to get back to his form as he’s lost his punch he had from slimming down too much for GC stuff. I’d say a new team who see him as a Classics man would suit him better, or the XC one.

Seems strange that a rider who has won Strade Bianche, Amstel Gold and a tour stage up the Alpe is an understatement achiever according to some here. He’s never going to be a Pog or Grand Tour rider and he’s not going to be as prolific as MvDP or Wout but he has already won some decent races as well as World Cross champ, and MTB Olympics etc. Yes his problem is Pog but Pog is everyone’s problem. He can beat the likes of Remco, Wout or MvDP with some luck and the right parcours.

Seems strange that a rider who has won Strade Bianche, Amstel Gold and a tour stage up the Alpe is an understatement achiever according to some here.

But for the salary he’s on it’s not a good enough return, he’s won some big races but not followed those up with enough others. And whilst he’s not a fully formed GC rider he’s not willing to do the leg work and support a team leader. G & Froome both did it to learn the ropes, WvA does it, MvDP does it. All of them were/are significantly more prolific.

He’s clearly not at the Pog, Rog, Vingo, Remco, WvA or MvDP level but I’m not sure he’s even at the level below that. When Ineos brought him in it was that he would develop to be there and, bluntly, he hasn’t. Whether that’s his fault or their’s is not clear but he’s well down the pecking order in terms of road wins even in Ineos over the last few years.

TP isn’t competing with Ving and Rog…. he’s not a GC rider in the grand tours. He’s lower top 10 at best …. maybe with the right combination of luck he’s an outside bet for a Vuelta podium.

He’s stated that he wants to focus on the road in the next few years. Problem 1=Pogacar turns up then you’re racing for 2nd currently. Problem 2=MvDP, WvA and Remco are all insanely good too, what an era for the casual observer. Problem 3=Ineos are a sinking ship. Problem 4= G on his podcast reckons that Pidcock is surrounded by the wrong people.

A combination of problems 3 and 4 means that it’s time to leave Ineos. Hard to see where he goes though? These rumours about Q36.5….if you’re focussing on the road, then you’d be mad to swap Ineos for a team that haven’t ridden a grand tour and have barely featured in the few monuments that they’ve been invited to.

As to why he’s doing road….. what’s the highest paid XC racer on? 100k? This forum has a hilarious obsession with Nino Schurter currently (he’s one of my all time fav athletes fwiw!). Road salary, he’s on what £2 million per year? Maybe more….. it’s night and day.

Would Quickstep be a good fit?  Have they got room?

Ineos appear to be a sinking ship.

Various rumours swirling that they won’t exist at all in the next couple of years – although I suspect some of it is media dredging up all manner of speculation and asking any random cycling pundit (and in this case, washed up former manager who oversaw the Lance Years!) probing questions and potentially knitting the answers of 2 and 2 together to give 6¾…

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling/sir-jim-ratcliffe-is-fed-up-with-his-toy-johan-bruyneel-doubts-future-of-ineos-grenadiers-amidst-tom-pidcock-debacle

But for the salary he’s on it’s not a good enough return

I have no idea what his salary is but winning Amstel Gold  is better than any other Green wash result this year I would say it’s bigger than a Giro stage which Narveas won…..

A-A….Is Pidock tanned? This is all starting to look VERY familiar…

Why can’t he just find a MTB team and solely concentrate on that?

Money. He’s paid – or overpaid if you see it like that – a top road rider’s salary, which is massively more than any pro mtber earns.

I ikeep pointing out that he’s won only five times on the road during his INEOS career and people say, but, but, but… he won a Tour stage, a classic or two, an Olympic gold medal and world champs on a mountain bike and that he keeps saying he wants to focus on the road, but the mountain bike thing s a bit like Lewis Hamilton turning up to a Le Man 24-race and wiping the floor with a bunch of guys who aren’t quite at the same level, which is an exaggeration of course, but the general principle holds.

If you can be arsed to go back over previous interviews, he’s always going to f’ocus on the road next year’, but he’s also – as is his coach – on record as saying he wants to race across disciplines and that’s what keeps him motivated. Which is fair enough, that seems to be how he’s wired., short attention span, not engaged when not racing for the win, not a great team player. Where it gets messy is the bit where INEOS – whatever you think of the company and the team – pays him lots of money mostly based on potential on the road, but his take seems to be that he will decide, for example, what his role at the Tour de France is going to be.

Do you tell your employer – assuming you have one – what you’re going to do even when they’re paying you to do something else?

As Vingegaard shows, a lightweight, physiologically-gifted rider can be a GC winner, but it takes focus and dedicated training to that goal. That doesn’t mean Pidcock could do the same, but you suspect that’s the gamble INEOS took when they agreed to pay him a shedload of money. If he was winning loads of one-day races regularly, that might be less of an issue, but really he’s not and you have to think that the dissonance between what he’s paid to do in INEOS’s view and what he and his immediate support-team  actually does/wants to do is what’s at the heart of this.

He’s a super-talented rider and should be with a team that wants him to race across the board – EF maybe or maybe the Q 36.5 outfit – and be happy and supported doing that. Whether another team can afford to pay him the big bucks to do that remains to be seen, maybe he takes a pay-cut to follow his passions, maybe it’s a grass is always greener thing.  For INEOS it reminds me of Mikel Artteta at Arsenal shedding talented players who didn’t fit with his vision and, if one their young guns breaks through next season, no-one outside the British cycling media will be talking about Pidcock.

TLDR: him leaving INEOS is probably going to be the best course for both parties, but he may have to accept that he makes less dosh elsewhere. None of which means he’s not very, very talented. He does win races, but arguably not enough to justify the amount he’s paid and not the races – grand tours – that INEOS really, really wants to win.

no recaro seats I heard

A-A….Is Pidock tanned? This is all starting to look VERY familiar…

Do you mean that Narvaez is Ecuadorian? I’m confused.

A-A….Is Pidock tanned? This is all starting to look VERY familiar…

No idea what you are on about TBH.

I was simply pointing out that INEOS have had a shit season but Pidcocks Amstel win is probably the highlight. Narveas win at giro is only other top result, although since looking this up I also saw that Ganna won a TT at giro too but then his season fizzed out fast too

I think the bigger question is whether Ratcliffe continues with INEOS or just pulls the plug. Looks more like he’s had his little excursion into owning a cycling team and has now lost interest.

I think the bigger question is whether Ratcliffe continues with INEOS or just pulls the plug. Looks more like he’s had his little excursion into owning a cycling team and has now lost interest.

That would be a good thing i think. They’ve totally lost their way. They’ve gone from a team battling for everything to a team you look at and think “no chance” at 99% of times they line up. They don’t even look like threatening in races, let alone winning them. They’re pretty anonymous now and need a complete rethink on riders, tactics, events, everything. Something clearly isn’t working at the whole team.

Even teams like Tudor, UnoX etc have realistically taken them to task now and if you’re sitting watching you rarely even consider the the “oh he could…..” when an INEOS guy does actually turn up.

I was simply pointing out that INEOS have had a shit season but Pidcocks Amstel win is probably the highlight. Narveas win at giro is only other top result,

You could argue that Narvaez beating Pogacar on the opening hill-top finish of the Giro and taking pink isn’t a bad result, particularly when the Ecuadorian gets paid a shedload less than Pidcock. But that’s not really the point. No-one’s saying Pidcock’s not a very good rider on his day, just that his performances are apparently out of proportion to his pay and that maybe he’s not the best fit for INEOS or vice versa.

Sure, you can use it as a stick to beat INEOS, but isn’t all the fuss and the inflated salary mostly because he’s British? If he were, say, Belgian, no-one would be particularly bothered. Meanwhile INEOS has leaked top talent like a sieve, Carapaz for example, AdamYates, Landa, Danny Martinez, Sivakov, Tao GH etc without replacing them with a really competitive GC leader.

Arguably their best result this year wasn’t Pidock winning Amstel Gold, or Narvaez’s stage win, it was Geraint Thomas finishing on the podium at the Giro, because ultimately grand tour racing and winning the Tour in particular is their priority.  And that, again, is why Pidcock’s not a great fit maybe.

As someone else has already said above, following the departure of certain key management figures has created a lack of team direction, which has had a massive impact on results. Couple that with the fact that Ineos are now nowhere near the big money team they once were means they just don’t have the ability to compete at the top as they once did.

By the way, this is all on an episode of Watts Occurring, so from the horses mouth, so to speak.

Lack of direction and management support has a very negative  impact on riders like Pidcock & the Hayters; they’re winners but also need a team to support them. Riders like Pog, WvA & Vingegaard are the exception not the rule, so comparisons have only limited utility.

People seem critical of TP’s salary (which I have no idea of), saying he’s not doing this that or the other… It’s my understanding that when Ineos agreed his contract they were a very different team both financially and structurally. To those who criticise him saying he hasn’t fulfilled his potential I would suggest that the Ineos Team as a whole, which is specifically to say from the management downwards, is arguably not the team it was at the time he joined them for the gazillions people suggest he’s paid. What I mean is, I’d suggest the contract to perform runs both ways so for people to criticise TP whilst not acknowledging the team’s responsibility towards its riders has probably not been met are just being blinkered.

Another example is Philipo Ganna… what’s he achieved this year? He used to be a sure bet at any TT. He looks unmotivated to say the least. He’s a born winner, but why isn’t he winning every TT? He looks like he’s lost weight, so I do wonder if they were continuing their GC obsession by trying to get him to climb better. Maybe not as a GC contender but possibly to perform a specific role akin to the phenomenal role that Rohan Dennis performed for them a few years ago.

With regard to TP leaving, he’s already a Red Bull sponsored rider so Bora seems the obvious direction to me.

I agree with that, I was simply pointing out that for many winning Amstel Gold is a top result, not everyone can be a Pog or MVdP  His results this season in a malfunctioning team are not bad at all.

As I said I have no idea what he is paid. He should move away but where his focus lies is tricky. He won’t beat the likes of MVdP or Wout often in the power classics and he will not beat Pog in the hillier classics and he’s not a grand tour gc rider.

As I said I have no idea what he is paid.

2.7 million euros from Ineos.

People seem critical of TP’s salary (which I have no idea of), saying he’s not doing this that or the other… It’s my understanding that when Ineos agreed his contract they were a very different team both financially and structurally. To those who criticise him saying he hasn’t fulfilled his potential I would suggest that the Ineos Team as a whole, which is specifically to say from the management downwards, is arguably not the team it was at the time he joined them for the gazillions people suggest he’s paid. What I mean is, I’d suggest the contract to perform runs both ways so for people to criticise TP whilst not acknowledging the team’s responsibility towards its riders has probably not been met are just being blinkered.

What do you think INEOS are not doing to support Pidcock?

What do you think INEOS are not doing to support Pidcock?

In simple terms, when he’s been in positions where he’s strong, like the Strade Bianchi, he’s had very little in the way of team-mates next to him helping with attacks. Same with some of the GC stages he’s looked good in.

So for me he’s not either getting the right team-mates, they don’t give a shit about him or they’re not good enough for the job….

All of that is pretty critical of course, but that’s a brutal overview.

I’ve got no idea… I’m a bloke on the internet.

My point is that to focus solely upon Pidcock’s results or him being “difficult”, or him riding other events away from the road, all in isolation, is blinkered, there’s much more going on in that team & it has had a measurable impact on results for many of its riders, not just Pidcock.

Edit: Weeksy has a good point. I mean, look at his late entry to Paris Roubaix… he got 17th in a race that should not suit someone of his size. The next placed Ineos rider was Conor Swift, who is arguably (physically speaking) more suited to that race, & he was minutes down in 30 odd place. Where was his support? Most of the team dropped out.

Ineos’ goal is seemingly grand tours, seems Tom is not a good fit for that even if they sorted everything else out.

Clearly Le Tour is the pinnacle of pro riding from a team point of view. But how does everything else rank? Is a Monument better than the Vuelta?

Riding a one week tour-of-somewhere-I’d-struggle-to-put-on-a-map is good practise for riders and teams with Grand Tour aspirations but can’t be a sponsor favourite compared to a spring classic.

Next years Worlds in Rwanda is going to be so hilly that MVDP isn’t bothering attending – suggesting it could be a good course for TP.

Tom seems to be (and I’m speaking only of his racing, not his personality) aggressive, selfish/not a team player and easily bored/needs motivation. None of which seem to be compatible with being a GT GC contender. Even his Tour stage win was a random individual effort which probably hindered the GC effort rather than helped it?

It does seem to fit nicely with riding a select targeted program of CX, XC and one day races. MVDP made a good run of doing just that prior to 2021.

Next years Worlds in Rwanda is going to be so hilly that MVDP isn’t bothering attending – suggesting it could be a good course for TP.

Is Pogi not going ?

Tom seems to be (and I’m speaking only of his racing, not his personality) aggressive, selfish/not a team player and easily bored/needs motivation. None of which seem to be compatible with being a GT GC contender.

I think Bernard Hinault would disagree with the aggressive selfish elements not being compatible (and a lot of the big gt winners were selfish racers).

they don’t give a shit about him

I’m not sure being a domestique is a career where you can decide to lead the team leader hanging – there’s plenty of competition for contracts so sabotaging a team’s race isn’t going to go well at your mid-season personal development review meeting :)

Going on UCI points for Ineos this year according to pro cycling stats

Rodriguez winning Romandie and 7th in the tour: 500 and 425 respectively

Thomas Giro podium: 750

Amstel win and tdf stage 2nd: 500 and 150

Which is interesting from 2 perspectives:

(1) Rodriguez is Ineos’ best change at GC, forget TP, if that’s what they want they should go all in for Carlos.

(2) Focusing on 1 day races pays in terms of points, if it pays in terms of TV time etc is another matter.

(1) Rodriguez is Ineos’ best change at GC, forget TP, if that’s what they want they should go all in for Carlos.

Only if 5-6 other riders are not there