Paying tax on tax – you have to just love labour dont you.

Fuel duty goes up by 2p/L tonight. However when you add the vat onto it, you get a 2.3p/L increase. Surely fuel duty is neither a good, nor a service though……. **** thieving ****.

Paying tax on tax has always been the case – it's not just Labour

If you think about it – you've been taxed 3 times

Yup, 'tis all a bit ridiculous.

Taxed when you earn, taxed when you save, taxed when you spend.

Hey – Someone has to pay for the holy war you know!

money doesn't grow on trees.

Yup – got to pay for services somehow. fuel is too cheap anyway and our tax burden whilst no longer the lowest in europe is still one of the lowest in terms of total tax take – direct and indirect as a % of gdp.

Do you really want a low tax system like the USA. 30% of the polulation have no effective access to healthcare, child mortality and life expectancy are very poor in comparison to other idustrialised countries? Or would yo rather have good healthcare and services free at the point of use? No beggars in the streets etc – then pay dutch levels of tax.

good healthcare and services free at the point of use

Well, sort of 😉

To get it good rather than adequate you would need to pay dutch levels of tax – significantly higher than we pay

Well on the plus side they were the ones that got rid of the fuel tax accelerator thingy that was introduced by the Major government so it's not all bad.

Dont mind paying tax if the money goes to the services it is intended for, the amount of road tax we pay should mean we have super roads, the amount of NI we pay means the NHS,Social Services etc should be able to deliver what it says on the tin, in reality the money is squandered(insert list as required) on garbage to buy the votes of those that dont want to contribute to the pot and have no intention of doing so as well as filling the pockets of career politicians.

I can never understand why we have a Health system with twice the number of management staff as there is clinical staff, absolute scandal that the so called free healthcare system is run as a business.

Taxed when you earn, taxed when you save, taxed when you spend.

Yeah, those second homes don't just refurbish themselves you know!

Anokdale – that simply is wrong – we do not have twice the number of management staff as clinical. sources please.

The NHS suffers from a lack of management – it needs more and better quality managers. NHS managerial overheads are far lower than comparable systems accross the world – partly because its funded from taxes

NI at 9% ( 10% ???) of income up to up to a ceiling of £30k+ does not provide anything like enough money for the nhs which costs 9% of GDP let alone social services.

can never understand why we have a Health system with twice the number of management staff as there is clinical staff

I find that very hard to believe, can I ask the source of that statistic?

TJ, the NHS has sufficient managers, possibly a few too many. What it doesn't have is quality management. I'm dealing with three fairly straightforward projects which have stalled simply because the people involved are just not capapble of making decisions, so meetings are called, discussions are had and the only thing agreed on is that we need another meeting in a month or so.

To a point one should "enjoy" paying tax.
Beyond that point, one will often resent paying tax.

the "point" at which it moves from one to the other is going to be a function of your politics.

One thing is constant though, the UK hasnt had hypothecated taxes for generations and that is a good thing – as someone smarter than me once said: "the point of taxation is to have your money spent on something you'd never willingly spend it on yourself". 🙂

I can never understand why we have a Health system with twice the number of management staff as there is clinical staff

Wrong…….

absolute scandal that the so called free healthcare system is run as a business.

I had the same argument with MrsMM, not long after we met……. (She is a management accountant in a local trust) – it has to be run as a business and decisions have to be made about where to draw the line, otherwise the NHS would be a bottomless pit into which he'd keep throwing money and, as we know (see I hate the NHS thread…) there ain't enough money to go round as it is…….

Not saying the NHS is perfect, nor would Mrs MM – but it is a shed load better than what a lot of other folk around the world have available……

amount of road tax we pay should mean we have super roads

For **** sake this is a cycling website, surely to good you've heard that there's no such thing as road tax?

NI at 9% ( 10% ???) of income up to up to a ceiling of £30k+ does not provide anything like enough money for the nhs which costs 9% of GDP let alone social services.

There is employers NI as well as employees don't forget.

Even so epic steve – the amount of money raised in NI is a fraction of the cost of the NHS

Well, at least taxpayers money isn't being frittered away, eh?

More examples here

As Stoner says, up to a point, paying tax is a very neceessary thing. It's what's done with that tax which will define how you feel about it.

Even so epic steve – the amount of money raised in NI is a fraction of the cost of the NHS

Well N.I. receipts for the last financial year were around £97 Billion

The department of health spent a similar figure

What fraction did you have in mind TJ? 😀

IMO – it's worth every penny too

Do you really want a low tax system like the USA. 30% of the polulation have no effective access to healthcare, child mortality and life expectancy are very poor in comparison to other idustrialised countries? Or would yo rather have good healthcare and services free at the point of use? No beggars in the streets etc –

Simplistic, emotive, nonsense.

The highest tax burden this country has ever endured, was under Thatcher. Despite that, the NHS suffered serious underfunding under Thatcher – as indeed did all other welfare provisions.

Taxation and welfare provisions are not necessarily linked.

Simplistic yes Ernie – but you have to get the money to pay for Health and welfare services from somewhere. So while you can have a high tax poor service regime as you indicate, you cannot have a low tax high service regime.

Uplink – the figures I have now found are wider apart than that but I am suprised How close they are. However initially it was claimed "the amount of NI we pay means the NHS,Social Services etc should be able to deliver what it says on the tin" which is clearly not right as the NHS absorbs all of NI and a bit more. ( not that the taxes are hypothecated anyway.)

you cannot have a low tax high service regime.

Yes you can.

Full employment (everyone paying smaller amounts of tax) and revenue from the profits of nationalised, gas, oil, water, electricity, and banking industries, just for starters, can reduce the government's need to increase the tax burden.

the figures I have now found are wider apart than that

What figures have you found?

OK Ernie – without major economic restructuring then 🙂

The country/next govt needs to do some serious restructuring – we're getting to the point where we are becoming a country with no notable exports/manufacturing and importing everything (due to Nu Labours policies) – couple this with Nu Labour trying to destroy the banking industry and raising taxation we'll all be **** in a few years.

Another Labour/Communist experiment has failed – I can't wait for their next "rebranding" and destroying years of conservative good practice

conservative good practice

Oxymoron.

Lanesra, I may not be a genius but I'm not stupid, however I really couldnt make sense of your last post.

Conservatives destroyed manufacturing – not labour remeber the thatcher slump?. Nice attempt at rewriting history and Labour is nowhere near communist.

OK Ernie – without major economic restructuring then

Yes, it would require abandoning the failed monetarist, neo-liberal, and hugely misnamed "laissez-faire" economics of the past 30 years.

You appear to have been seduced by TINA TJ.

Which is surprising, considering the comprehensive, global, and systematic, failure of the monetarist experiment.

Not at all been seduced by TINA. I am with you on the solution. guilty of simplistic posting however 😳

The country/next govt needs to do some serious restructuring – we're getting to the point where we are becoming a country with no notable exports/manufacturing and importing everything (due to Nu Labours policies) – couple this with Nu Labour trying to destroy the banking industry and raising taxation we'll all be **** in a few years.

Another Labour/Communist experiment has failed – I can't wait for their next "rebranding" and destroying years of conservative good practice

look, I know the NHS isn't the best funded health system in the world, but surely you can ask your doctor to prescribe you something a little stronger?

Full employment (everyone paying smaller amounts of tax) and revenue from the profits of nationalised, gas, oil, water, electricity, and banking industries, just for starters, can reduce the government's need to increase the tax burden.

Recipe for disaster. Governments cannot run industries. Every time they try its always ended in failure.

How are we to miraculously generate the millions of jobs necessary for full employment? Even if you could get the benefit scroungers off their lazy asses to fill them.

The usual left wingers jumping in without offering up a solution/cause – apart from blaming it all on Thatcher :yawnsmiley:

Governments cannot run industries. Every time they try its always ended in failure.

Absolute nonsense.

For example …….. utilities such as electricity, gas, and water, have all previously been under state or local government control. They were highly successful businesses which generated huge profits, although profits were often deliberately suppressed (such as gas for example) to allow ordinary people to have more disposable income – the equivalent of tax cuts if you will.

They did not end in "failure"

EDF is an extremely successful energy company. It is owned by a government.

If a government has the organisationally skills to prosecute a war thousands of miles away on the other side of the world, if it has the organisationally skills to provide a nation's children with their life long educational needs, if it has the organisationally skills to provide a nation's full healthcare needs, then it is perfectly capable of providing it's citizens with electricity, gas, and water.

As indeed they have successfully done so in the past. What "magic wand" do you think profit-hungry private companies possess ffs ? The same one which bankers used until they were bailed out by the government maybe ?

.

How are we to miraculously generate the millions of jobs necessary for full employment?

"Generate" jobs ? What do you mean "generate" jobs ? 😯

There is no need to 'generate jobs' ……. in fact, there are not enough people in our society to do all the work which requires doing.

Under our present economic model if 5% of the workforce are unemployed, it is considered to be extremely good ! And yet, it is clearly an obscene waste of precious human resources.

We have had full employment and a much lower tax burden in the past. TINA is a lie.

without offering up a solution

He he …… you are a joker Lanesra !

When the world was facing global economic meltdown as a direct result of the economic failings of the Bush administration, why wasn't a big fat dose of more free-market fundamentalism not administered ?

….. if that is the "solution" eh ?

Why did the neo-conservatives abandoned their beloved 'free-market solutions' as quickly as rats from a sinking ship ?

Why did they at the drop of a hat, embrace 'government intervention' even though for decades they had argued against it ?

Why did Bush enter the White House as a neo-conservative, and yet eight years later leave as a neo-socialist ?

No other solution ?

We'd be in a better position if all income tax didn't get spent on supporting those with inadequate income…. But for some reason there are more poor people here than ever before?!

They did not end in "failure"

British Leyland

If a government has the organisationally skills to prosecute a war thousands of miles away on the other side of the world

Er, not the Government the British Army and Airforce. The ministry of Defence has recently been hammered as it couldn't apparently procure the proverbial in a brewery let alone for example buy a few Chinook helicopters that actually worked or bring even one defence procurement in on time and on budget.

There is no need to 'generate jobs' ……. in fact, there are not enough people in our society to do all the work which requires doing.

What is this work that requires doing then and who is going to pay for it to be done pray tell?

The country/next govt needs to do some serious restructuring – we're getting to the point where we are becoming a country with no notable exports/manufacturing and importing everything (due to Nu Labours policies) – couple this with Nu Labour trying to destroy the banking industry and raising taxation we'll all be **** in a few years.

Another Labour/Communist experiment has failed – I can't wait for their next "rebranding" and destroying years of conservative good practice

That is funny on so many levels.

re. exports – check the OECD stats (btw, you can export services too)
re. manufacturing – yep, would be nice to have more. However, we have more than most people think.
re. importing everything – lol
re. Labour & banking – you clearly don't understand that Brown-Blair continued the deregulation started by the Tories
re. Communist – you know Labour are a centralist party, right?
re. rebranding – what is the conservative logo these days?