Panorama Cars V Bikes

Thanks for that TJ

Mrs fazzini doesn’t like me being on the bike on the road as she sees how other drivers behave towards other cyclists. I try to limit road-time as much as possible, but commuting its unavoidable for chunks of the journey. Door to door its 4 miles but all on road. I often purposefully ride twice that distance each way to avoid being on the road as much as I can. YMMV. Again, for balance, I had a pleasant door to door commute this morning with space given to me by all drivers.

Making eye contact isn’t flawed, it can help you anticipate; if the driver hasn’t looked they haven’t seen you” watching wheels is a good idea but it can only tell you what the vehicle is doing not what it may do.

Without getting into a debate of “road craft” staring at someone’s eyeballs doesn’t tell you anything about their intent or likely future actions, their head maybe pointing in your direction the photons bounced off you might be hitting their retina, people still mange to look right through people on bikes or on foot all the time.

You can tell a lot more about what a vehicle is likely to do next by looking at the vehicle not the operator’s head, but nobody can see the into the future…

staring at someone’s eyeballs doesn’t tell you anything about their intent or likely future actions

It does, it tells you they have no chance of seeing you if they haven’t looked in your direction, of course it doesn’t tell you if they have seen you. It certainly provides information.

One of the very interesting things on my recent european tour was seeing the different attitudes to cyclists in different countries.

Ireland – -on narrow roads car drivers coming the other way would move over as much as possible but not stop giving you the choice to go thru the gap or throw yourself into the hedge. Several cars overtaking nearly had head on collisions with cars coming the other way but no overtaking cars came too close

Low countries – you had priority and of course good cycle infrastructure

France and Spain – – lots of space given on the road

Not one single aggressive close pass in 3000 miles in Ireland and Europe, plenty in a few hundred miles in the UK

I think the UK issues stem from 2 things mainly:
1: Cars are sold and seen as tools to give you freedom but the reality is congestion and frustration. Car drivers then see bikes sailing past when they are stuck in traffic and hate the cyclists for having for “free” what they are told they will have but actually do not have – ie freedom

2: – classic “othering” Decades long attacks on cyclists as a pest on the road. “cyclists” are not seen as human and thus its psycologically easier to ignore them. This leads to poor behaviour from cyclists as when you feel you are not a part of society then you feel less bound by its laws and thats creats a negative feedback loop. cyclists become a target for frustration

I actually believe the usage of helmets in the UK does not help – you are not seen as a human but as a pesky cyclist. I get less agrro from car drivers when not wearing a helmet

In much of Europe ( but not ireland) far more people have cycled and / or know someone who cycles so cyclists are not seen as a separate group. In Ireland I put it down to a generally less angry and hurried population

Making eye contact also makes them realise you are human and its much harder psychologically to threaten someone who has made eye contact

I actually believe the usage of helmets in the UK does not help – you are not seen as a human but as a pesky cyclist. I get less agrro from car drivers when not wearing a helmet

I think there’s some truth in that when helmets go along with lycra and all the gear. There’s research on passing distances with or without a helmet but I wonder what the difference is with roadie kit and race bike Vs casual clothing/average bike, both with helmets?
I remember some stats about drivers seeing the more ‘Pro looking’ riders as more skilled/experienced so not needing as much space but I think that was related to helmets also, the perception of the rider being safer whatever happened. Wrong but the effect is there.

Jamso – it was a very limited piece of research – pointing the direction for further investigation but not enough to draw conclusions. It could either be ” they are more skilled so need less space” or ” they are not human”

7 of us rode off a ferry in Zeebrugge, we then cycled across Belgium on a week long trip. Absolutely no problems. Every driver was considerate and careful around us. Fantastic cycling infrastructure.

A week later We’re sitting at the ferry terminal, the border guy comes up and ushers us forward to get passports checked and be ready to embark for the homeward ferry. The British chap sitting in his suv at the front of the queue has a fit at us ‘pushing in’. We were not holding him up, we weren’t in his way and we weren’t taking space on the ferry from any driver in that queue. I thought this driver was going to have a heart attack. There is a long way to go to change the attitude of many.

Interesting that the RAC chap (who is a recreational cyclist) says their RAC driving instructors teach learner drivers about the highway code rules around cycling.

Attitudes can be changed. When I first started cycling in Edinburgh buses were a real menace. Now they are some of the best behaved drivers towards cyclists.

they received training on interacting with cyclists and what happened was that being kinder to cyclists also worked to reduce their frustrations and make it easier and nicer for them so it became a positive feedback cycle.

this is the training video

I think even within the UK attitudes vary wildly. In Sheffield the general standard of driving is quite dangerous but I don’t actually get that high a proportion of close passes (I’m sure plenty will disagree). In Leamington Spa which I visit a fair bit for work I am guaranteed multiple dangerous passes in the 1.5 miles I ride from the station, despite the road being 3 lanes wide.

Edit – on reflection, the traffic is so bad here that maybe I’m just observing that it’s hard for a car to close pass you if it’s stuck in stationary traffic…

There’s research on passing distances with or without a helmet but I wonder what the difference is with roadie kit and race bike Vs casual clothing/average bike, both with helmets?
I remember some stats about drivers seeing the more ‘Pro looking’ riders as more skilled/experienced so not needing as much space but I think that was related to helmets also, the perception of the rider being safer whatever happened.

Might be referring to Dr Ian Walker’s research.

BBC click baity summary:
Wearing helmets ‘more dangerous’

And background research:
http://drianwalker.com/overtaking/

That’s a really good video TJ, thanks for posting. Be nice if that kind of thing could be done for cars and made public somewhere/somehow.

The music made me feel like I was at Alton Towers!

The training for Edinburgh bus drivers made a real difference. Its gone from buses coming alongside you and then pulling in trapping you against the kerb etc to bus drivers staying 50m behind you if a stop is coming up, letting cyclists ahead of them out of junctions etc etc

I’m a helmet wearer but do remember some (Canadian I think) research that showed that riders who wore helmets and glasses weren’t perceived as human (more robotic etc)

I had a chat with a ‘civilian’ about this recently. Apparently, all geared up, ‘we’ look like professionals so are given less space/consideration as we’re less likely to do something unexpected. Imagine the behaviour of a 40 year old MAMIL vs a wobbly kid on a bike.

I live in a small town of less than 2k residents. I run and ride here. The same people treat me completely differently when I’m on foot vs riding. They’ll wait behind or drive on the other side of the road when I’m running and do all the usual shite when I’m riding. The same people in the same cars…

Last Wednesday I had an overtake on a blind bend within 1/4 mile of home followed by a close pass by another driver on a long straight with excellent visibility and no oncoming traffic then later on, a high speed overtake when I was turning right. All in one ride in rural Lincs/Cambs/Rutland. FFS!

staring at someone’s eyeballs doesn’t tell you anything about their intent or likely future actions, their head maybe pointing in your direction the photons bounced off you might be hitting their retina, people still mange to look right through people on bikes or on foot all the time.

You can tell a lot more about what a vehicle is likely to do next by looking at the vehicle not the operator’s head, but nobody can see the into the future…

You can do both…

<edit> Don’t forget the peripheral vision/eyeball limitations explained here

The training for Edinburgh bus drivers made a real difference. Its gone from buses coming alongside you and then pulling in trapping you against the kerb etc to bus drivers staying 50m behind you if a stop is coming up, letting cyclists ahead of them out of junctions etc etc

Was the training used in conjunction with some threat of punishment if the drivers were caught driving dangerously? If so, it would be interesting to know how much of the behavioural change you witnessed was down to the educational video, and how much was down to the threat of punishment. Hopefully heavily weighted to the former!

As far as I am aware no threat of punishment. I think what happened was that the behaviour that is kind to cyclists became normalised and resulted in less stress for the drivers resulting in a positive feedback cycle. Cameras on all the buses would have helped as well.

Thats as much as I know.

Jamso – it was a very limited piece of research – pointing the direction for further investigation but not enough to draw conclusions

Sure, I don’t recall any surveys etc that would make conclusions on the reasons, ‘stats’ was the wrong word. More like general points discussed related to the study results.

To echo TJs and Bunnyhops earlier points…

Me and Mrs BF have done a couple of bike tours round Belgium and France. The worst bit of both these was the section between our house and Crewe station.

All in one ride in rural Lincs/Cambs/Rutland. FFS!

Normal for Peterborough. High six!

Just been out for a road ride, 3 very close passes. On lorry and 2 cars designed for spirited driving. One other car avoided me and nearly had a collision with a lorry. This is in 36 miles with a about 50% off road.
I don’t think the drivers were malicious just impatient.
It might be a good time to start enforcing speed limits and penalising other antisocial driving.
I am now exceedingly grump.

For the majority (of the minority who cause a problem) it isn’t malice, it’s a basic lack of critical thinking skills.

Example, last Sunday I’m approach a bend on a rural B Road probably 250m away going uphill. Two cyclists come around the bend with a car following. The road is going downhill so the cyclists are moving quickly. The driver suddenly just decided to overtake and forces the following cyclist to let them in behind the first cyclist. My cars collision avoidance system emergency brakes me to a stop (faster than I could react) to avoid a head on collision with the other car. Driver just waves as if nothing happened.

Without getting into a debate of “road craft” staring at someone’s eyeballs doesn’t tell you anything about their intent or likely future actions

It does, if you can’t see their eyes they can’t see you, this is useful information. You could stare at wheels as much as you like but stationary wheels only tell you the car is stationary. If the wheels are moving and you can’t see their eyes then it’s time to really worry.

You could stare at wheels as much as you like but stationary wheels only tell you the car is stationary. If the wheels are moving and you can’t see their eyes then it’s time to really worry.

Pretty much my point… Cheers.

Pretty much my point… Cheers.

You seem a little confused but I’m glad you agree with me.

I wasn’t sure I was going to watch this. I decided to take October away from the bike and take a step back after having the scariest encounter with 2 cars together. I was badly shaken by it all.

Rod Liddle??? I’m sorry but….’Utter Bell End’. IMO, motorist’s will always win and be favoured over cyclists, that’s always been the case. 🙁

Every week involves an incident and I’m growing tired of it, cars and bikes are fine, its people that are the problem! People are just simply always in a hurry and dont want to or cannot be behind a cyclist, FULL STOP.

Is this what we pay our tv licence for, really???

Me and Mrs BF have done a couple of bike tours round Belgium and France. The worst bit of both these was the section between our house and Crewe station.

Same experience.
A week’s holiday in Spain riding all day every day – not a single issue of road rage, close pass etc.
But it happens more or less every single ride in the UK.