Owen Paterson #Torysleaze

Those rolling their eyes that “the opposition” haven’t agreed to stand down so an independent can stand in this bye election, who are they supposed to stand aside for? No one has yet put their hat in the ring and there’s no way that anyone associated with any opposition party could stand as it will backfire so it’s not like they can organise it.

It’s a great opportunity for someone but who could it be?

Perhaps those defending the US government should say that to the people who the US government has killed via it’s military or it’s economic policies? Violence goes both ways, and it’s always the state which does the vast majority of it.

The people who stormed the Capitol were defending the US government, that was the whole point.

Seriously, when you’re attempting to justify the actions of nazis and racists, it’s time to stop and have a think.

You do realise this place is make believe don’t you? Whether you know who I am or not it has little bearing on what I say here.

You seem to be trotting out a standard defence of those who enable and cheerlead violence by others as part of a political agenda. You might even believe it. Or you could be a Ukrainian teenager in his underpants surrounded by pizza boxes, or a member of the 50 cent brigade. Either way you trot out time and again tripe that justifies or enables violence against people who are elected to represent their communities.

Why don’t you put your energies into getting elected so you can be the change you want to see, or is that change just making the country unsafe for those who get elected

Seriously, when you’re attempting to justify the actions of nazis and racists

Off topic but if you really think that’s my position then you haven’t understood.

You seem to be trotting out a standard defence

Not a defence, just a simple fact. The problem with democracy is that when it doesn’t work, as it clearly isn’t working in this case, then people turn to non-democratic methods. What’s more offensive, an MP doubling his income by breaking the rules, abusing his position then seeking to cover it up and still getting away with it when he’s caught, or someone spraying graffiti on an office? Kelvin clearly thinks it’s the latter and you seem to agree, whereas I think the opposite. I’m pretty confident I’m in the majority on this point.

Blimey I was in Northampton yesterday and was shocked by the visible economic violence done to that place and its people. Political violence only leads to more repression but I can well understand a little targeted artwork.

spraying graffiti

There’s a massive revolutionary fightback going on in Croydon at the moment.

Although bizarrely it seems to have only started after the Labour controlled council went bankrupt and was forced to abandon all non-statutory obligations.

Kelvin clearly thinks it’s the latter

No I don’t. I didn’t say that. I am against physical violence against MPs and their offices for the reasons I have stated quite clearly. Nothing to do with claiming it is worse than what certain politicians do.

No I don’t. I didn’t say that.

See below.

I am against physical violence against MPs and their offices

You point being? I am against the smashing up, burning down etc of MPs offices. The thing you said it is a “shame” isn’t happening. That does not mean that I think people who do so are worse than corrupt politicians.

Physical violence against an office?

To be brutally honest though, who among us wouldn’t feel the urge to do something stupid if you saw Rees-Mogg in the street with no bodyguards? Same goes for the likes of Redwood, IDS, Francois, Bridgen, Farage etc. Labour has it’s fair share too such as Austin, Streeting, Mandelson etc. Maybe what we need is a modern version of the Red Army Faction or the SLA. Those guys would be spoilt for choice today.

Seriously, grow up and drop your Che Guevara fantasies, you’re embarrassing yourself.

Physical violence against an office?

“Intentional extensive physical damage” then, if you don’t like the term violence when talking about property. In this case smashing up, or burning down MPs offices, as Dazh says.

drop your Che Guevara fantasies

Whoa, I am Che.

Ernie Lynch.

It’s a great opportunity for someone but who could it be?

I don’t know the constituency [ well, I know the area well, but not the politics ], but if the opposition parties can’t get themselves sorted for a by-election, where none of them currently stand any chance of defeating a Conservative candidate on their own, it doesn’t look good for the far more difficult challenge of the next general election.

Seriously, grow up

Ah yes the age-old pretence of being all grown-up and mature. Well I’m very sorry, if being grown-up means accepting that politicians can get away with naked corruption then I’ll carry on being a teenager thanks. While all you grown-ups tut and shake your head and complain about how outrageous and disgraceful it all is, the people getting rich are laughing at you. They know that all they have to do is trot out the usual bullshit of a few bad apples, maybe make a small sacrifice like throwing Paterson to the wolves, and then just carry on regardless. And all the grown-ups will swallow it hook line and sinker like they always do.

I mean, even after everything that’s happened, Johnson this morning has come out and said he’s not declaring his holiday in the register of MPs interests. How outrageous! How disgraceful! Something should surely be done, blah blah blah.

Is that “something” burning down MPs offices, or attacking them? No one is arguing corrupt MPs should not be challenged. We need to organise to remove them. Physically attacking any MP or their office, to cause real harm or damage, isn’t the answer. As soon as that is normal, the corrupt politicians will use it to mobilise people into attacking the hard working and not-corrupt MPs.

The pen is mightier than the sword in a civilised society.

Something should surely be done, blah blah blah.

Something was done over the last 48 hours and the government u-turned. That’s minority parties objecting, people of all political persuasions writing to their MPs and the media doing a decent job of venting people’s frustrations. The outcome wasn’t a bad result.

On the other hand, Insulate Britian have succeeded in achieving zero so far with their direct action.

Before you conclude democracy is broken, try and run for local council or even as MP dazh and see if you can actually change things. But it’s much harder to do than just sitting back and inciting others to violence. Why not try political engagement and see? You mighht even make a go of it?

Why not try political engagement and see? You mighht even make a go of it?

He might you know…

The problem with democracy is that when it doesn’t work, as it clearly isn’t working in this case, then people turn to non-democratic methods…<snipped>
I’m pretty confident I’m in the majority on this point.

if being grown-up means accepting that politicians can get away with naked corruption

It isn’t, and never has been either, and I’ve no idea where you dragged that horse turd of an idea from.

Before you conclude democracy is broken, try and run for local council or even as MP dazh and see if you can actually change things.

I wouldn’t exaggerate what has happened in the last 48 hours. An attempt to change something appears to have failed due to mounting resistance, ironically much of it outside parliament. But at best we are where we were before it all kicked off.

How effective the parliamentary road is to achieve change depends on what your goals are. If your goal is merely to tinker with things here and there but to leave everything fundamentally intact then it’s brilliant for that.

If your goal however is to fundamentally overhaul everything, or God forbid create a different sort of society, then forget it.

Tony Benn entered parliament as a right-wing member of the Labour Party. His experience as a parliamentarian radicalised him and he ended up challenging the existing social order.

This is what he said with regards to the power of industrialists and bankers :

Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes by the unions is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the International Monetary Fund secured cuts in our public expenditure. … These [four] lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum.

I think it would be difficult to challenge the accuracy of that comment.

Something was done over the last 48 hours and the government u-turned.

So what has fundamentally changed? For his crimes Paterson is now rewarded with a nice retirement on an MPs pension and no doubt futher consultancy work and directorships, and all the other corrupt MPs continue as normal. And you think that is a good result? No, a good result would be Paterson facing prosecution and/or losing his pension and MPs being banned from taking on second jobs. Is that going to happen? Of course it isn’t.

The pen is mightier than the sword in a civilised society.

There are people sleeping on the streets, kids going hungry and dependent on donations of food from strangers. There are people dying from lack of medical care, and millions barely scraping a living with no hope of ever breaking out of the poverty trap. And whilst all this goes on the people who’s job it is to change this are enriching themselves and then complaining that they’re being mistreated when they’re caught red-handed. Civilised? Are you taking the p*ss?

Relatively speaking, the UK is a civilised country where the rule of law prevails. I understand your anger at the hideous inequality in society and the systemically rigged system but vandalism and violence won’t help fix it.

Are you taking the p*ss?

No, Owen Paterson, Boris Johnson, and Jacob Rees-Mogg are. And we need to voters to realise that. And we need the opposition parties to realise that with the voting system stacked in favour of the Conservatives, they need to work together, or all the mess you describe will continue… no… get worse.

Listeners are branding this James O'Brien’s finest monologue yet as he explains in forensic detail why the Owen Paterson scandal has hit the public so hard.@mrjamesob pic.twitter.com/rWQ1cumV7V

— LBC (@LBC) November 5, 2021

Off topic but if you really think that’s my position then you haven’t understood.

If you meant to say something else then feel free. As it stands, it looks an awful lot like “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” which in this case puts you on the same side as Donald Trump.

dazh- no one is saying the system doesn’t need changing, we all agree with you on that.

But on this thread, and plenty of others, you get all frothy at the idea of civil disorder, riots and physically attacking politicians.

That’s what we are disagreeing with you about, for plenty of reasons that have been explained above.

Disagreeing with your proposed methods does not mean we are happy to accept the continuation of the current broken system, and I’m assuming that you are clever enough to know that.

ironically much of it outside parliament.

The power of a Daily Mail headline

which in this case puts you on the same side as Donald Trump

It’s all Trumpian playbook bollox, democracy broken, corrupt politicians, broken system. It will be “drain the swamp” and “stop the steal” next.

Says gerrymandered constituencies yet can’t name one.

It will what happened in Virginia, as soon as they win all the concerns about democracy suddenly disappear

The people who stormed the Capitol were defending the US government,

Eh?

Is anyone actually that shocked by Tory behaviour being unscrupulous?

Have we forgotten everything that went before. Especially the last 18 months?

Dunt and O’Brien having a forensic field day attacking the government they effectively laid a path for when taking apart Corbyn every 15 minutes on their platforms.

Culpable.

Eh?

Trump was President, and they were trying to keep him President.

Culpable.

Do you disagree with anything James O’Brien said in that clip? He didn’t encourage people to vote for Johnson’s government at all by the way, he warned his listeners exactly why they shouldn’t be anywhere near power and why everyone, even those with a history of voting Conservative, had to vote to stop them. He also pointed out Corbyn’s shortcomings, and points out Starmer’s now (just as many of us on this forum did and do who absolutely want the current lot in government out). You don’t blind yourself to the problems of the opposition just because the government is so, so dangerous and unsuitable to run the country.

Eh?

Democracy is known by the ability to have elections and regime change peacefully. The Capitol riots were trying to stop regime change after a election which was to all intents and purposes free and fair

Trump was President,

WAS.

The Capitol riots were trying to stop regime change after a election which was to all intents and purposes free and fair

I.E. Was not in support of the government. So “The people who stormed the Capitol were defending the US government” is nonsense.

you get all frothy at the idea of civil disorder, riots and physically attacking politicians.

I said if it happened I’d find that completely unsurprising and understandable and I wouldn’t be that bothered about it. Is that what you mean by frothy? Seems to me the main people being frothy are those who are weirdly and unnecessarily upset by someone spray painting a building.

vandalism and violence won’t help fix it.

This is simply untrue. Have a quick look through recent history and you’ll find loads of examples where government policy was changed by violence, riots, direct action, protest and other ‘undemocratic’ means. In fact you could easily argue that the scale and rate of change is directly proportional to the scale of the violence which occured. There’s nothing politicians fear more than a public who are unafraid of the law and willing to take matters into their own hands.

As it stands, it looks an awful lot like “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”

Feel free to quote where I said that. I can assure you I didn’t. It’s in your imagination.

spray painting a building.

Why do you include that with “riots and physically attacking politicians” as if it is somehow connected?

There is a time and a place for everything, including violence and armed insurrection. Now is not the time and this is not place.

Violence can only be justified when there is absolutely no other avenue.

The situation in the UK isn’t even remotely close to that.

It reminds me of the nonsense those who talked about “the armed struggle” in NI came out with.

WAS.

He was still president at the time, and they were trying to keep him president. In the USA the president and government do not change straight after election. There’s another thread that details all this. Worth revisiting if you consider there was nothing wrong with what happened on that dark day. The documentary mentioned near the end of that thread, and still on iPlayer, is worth a watch.

I said if it happened I’d find that completely unsurprising and understandable and I wouldn’t be that bothered about it.

You said it was “a shame” that kind of thing didn’t happen here.

Your said…

Had they all been burnt down by an angry mob then you can bet Johnson, Rees Mogg and the rest of the pig-f*****s wouldn’t be so brazenly self-serving and indifferent. It’ll never happen though, which is a shame.

Why do you include that with “riots and physically attacking politicians” as if it is somehow connected?

It was Kelvin getting excited about the graffiti, not me. I’m entirely indifferent about it.

Violence can only be justified when there is absolutely no other avenue.

Who decides when all other avenues have been exhausted? The trouble is violence is hardly ever planned, and nor should it be. Unless it’s the metropolitan police doing the planning, in which case a riot is almost always guaranteed. Violence is rarely a deliberate tactic or strategy, and it’s much less justfiable when it is, as in your example of Northern Ireland. It’s not even something that needs justifying, it just happens, and when it does the politicians have a choice whether to ignore it and risk more, or take note and change course. History shows they often do the latter.

I.E. Was not in support of the government. So “The people who stormed the Capitol were defending the US government” is nonsense.

Wrong. The Trump administration was in power at the time of the riot. They were attempting to prevent that government being changed for a different one.

Feel free to quote where I said that. I can assure you I didn’t. It’s in your imagination.

I didn’t say you did: it’s in your imagination.