Oh for God’s sake, get on with the ghost stories will you?

5. Funding – not material research hence can’t convert into cash.

I would think ghosts would get US Deparment of Defence research grants, if they thought they existed.

7. Too vast an area to research i.e. not narrow enough to be defined.

Like climate change?

There are lots of actual scientists on here.

Awesome I’m not sure I qualify quite yet though, not got a PhD yet so I’m not a ‘proper’ scientist. Getting there.

There’s a Noble prize for the scientist that proves ghosts exist, so there is a good reason to look for them. Unfortunately, there’s no evidence to show anything exists. I’d love them to exist, but I’m not holding my breathe.

Indeed fame and riches would await anyone who had proof/evidence
They have been trying since at least the 18 th C to do this and still cannot produce any evidence but we have uncovered many tricks and charlatans

Read into thsi failure what you will as to whether you should still keep an open mind

I’m going to start my argument strongly by paraphrasing “Thor”

Science to primitive cultures often looks like magic.

Thought that was Arthur C Clarke’s (apparently not so) famous quote “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” But he was an author, not a scientist, so I’m not sure his opinion is reliable 😉 But there again I don’t think he wrote any ghost stories…

not got a PhD yet so I’m not a ‘proper’ scientist.

I only teach science, so that probably means I’m not a proper scientist either 🙂

I think I know a way round the PhD problem, one of my friends when waiting to get a PhD place ended up buying a centrifuge, a microscope and spectroscope and half a tonne of laboratory equipment and ended up getting published! If I can do that, I think I can call myself a ‘proper’ scientist. I’ll see if I can find the papers.

Thought that was Arthur C Clarke’s

Definitely was but I thought Thor has more cred these days 😉

It is interesting though. Science on the whole is about degrees of certainty.

It is highly likely that man made climate change is real (>99% certain?) but it is not 100%. That high degree of certainty and impact means that any rational person should take it seriously and do something about it.

Ghosts – cultural evidence and from those that I have met suggests that there is something going on. Hard data is difficult to obtain. We know that our mind’s perception is limited and that there is a lot more going on in the world (time being non-linear, extra dimensions, etc…)

Probability of ghosts existing…. ??

Probably higher than the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

To me it’s not in the impossible box but not in the “>99%” certain” box.

To me it’s not in the impossible box but not in the “>99%” certain” box.

To me, it’s in the <0.1% box, along with Russell’s teapot, the FSM, leprechauns, Zeus, etc.

There’s a Noble prize for the scientist that proves ghosts exist

Citation needed

EDIT: The Noble prize is awarded by the American Society of Civil Engineers, for a paper published by someone under the age of 35 (the only criteria I can quickly find). I call BS on that post above.

The Noble prize is awarded by the American Society of Civil Engineers, for a paper published by someone under the age of 35 (the only criteria I can quickly find). I call BS on that post above.

So how did Higgs win it then he’s not under 35 by a long way, have you checked all the Noble Prize lists?

Noble Prize

Nobel Prize

Oh! 😳

I haven’t added up the list of prizes for proving supernatural events but it’d seem like a slam dunk for some research if anyone had a chance of claiming them.

have you checked all the Noble Prize lists?

Yep 🙂

Noble Prize Past Award Winners

I haven’t added up the list of prizes for proving supernatural events but it’d seem like a slam dunk for some research if anyone had a chance of claiming them.

But it depends on the evidence being easily obtainable. Similar prizes for say discovering the Higgs Boson would not be claimed unless they were substantial enough to cover the outlay to build a Hadron collidier.

There is clearly some sort of phenomena happening, we have yet to build the theory or the tools to build a repeatable experiment.

There is clearly some sort of phenomena happening, we have yet to build the theory or the tools to build a repeatable experiment.

Yes, as explained earlier….your brain is **** with you.

We have built the theory and the tools to test this in repeatable experiments.

Similar prizes for say discovering the Higgs Boson would not be claimed unless they were substantial enough to cover the outlay to build a Hadron collidier.

Uhhh. I believe the Hadron Collider was built using government grants, if governments thought there was something to “ghosts” being real then I’m sure as I stated earlier…that the US DoD would have their dirty fingers in the pie.

There is clearly some sort of phenomena happening, we have yet to build the theory or the tools to build a repeatable experiment.

Or the alternative hypothesis that there is nothing happening that cannot be explained by current theory and tools.

In the previous pages we’ve had claims of an allegedly perfectly repeatable event relating to books flying off a shelf. Don’t think we’re talking LHC money to put up another shelf in the house are we?

Or the alternative hypothesis that there is nothing happening that cannot be explained by current theory and tools.

Well that certainly fits the bill in some cases – probably most especially when charlatans are at work trying to con people.

However there are just some cases that just cannot be easily dismissed. The book in the link below is a good example – it could be easily dismissed except it happened to a leading neurosurgeon who was able to look at all the usual explanations for what he went through. The guy certainly isn’t crazy and, I’d argue knows more about the human brain than anyone posting in this thread.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Proof-Heaven-Neurosurgeons-Journey-Afterlife/dp/0749958790/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381756893&sr=8-1&keywords=proof+of+heaven

Then there are cases of mysterious disappearances such as those covered by this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Missing-411-Western-United-States-Canada/dp/1466216298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381757233&sr=8-1&keywords=missing+411

Again, very well researched. Both of these are easy to dismiss until you read them and realise the extent to which the authors know their subjects and are backed up by credible witnesses/professionals.

Scepticism is healthy but an open mind that there are still things out there that science can’t yet explain is healthy too. After all science is littered with over turned theories that at one time or another were thought credible. Even the wackier ones like expanding Earth theory only got properly demolished in the past 50 years once better technology could be used to measure plate tectonics.

Proof of Heaven? Seems like he missed one theory out of his book :-

Proof of Heaven?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-near-death-experience-isnt-proof-heaven

Maybe ‘Proof’ is a bit strong, eh. Remember books can be published by anyone, journals only tend to publish papers that have been through some sort of review (note – this doesn’t necessarily make them correct either).

I think any scientist would love to be the first to prove that there is some sort of supernatural force – whether they’re physicists, biologists, psychologists… whatever. The founding of an entire new branch of science would be an epic achievement – but it doesn’t seem to be at the forefront of research.

That’s not because they don’t have open enquiring minds – science isn’t about meekly accepting the work of those that have gone before, but about checking it, challenging it, finding holes in it, and trying to fill those holes. The bigger the hole in previous work, the greater the challenge.

Remember the kerfuffle when someone thought they’d found evidence of faster than light travel? Were they ridiculed because they disproved Einstein? No, they published their data and asked everyone to check what they were seeing. Why would they behave any differently if they, for instance, found evidence a new plane of existence or a telekinetic force?

ETA – for those who say that the area of the paranormal doesn’t fit in with current science I’d suggest you take a look at psychological research into the consciousness. Lots of difficult questions remaining to be answered there – here’s a primer from a psychologist who incidentally spent a while studying parapsychology

There’s a Noble prize for the scientist that proves ghosts exist
Citation needed
EDIT: The Noble prize is awarded by the American Society of Civil Engineers, for a paper published by someone under the age of 35 (the only criteria I can quickly find). I call BS on that post above.

I think you are well aware of what was meant – do either organisation given awards to pedants?

There is clearly some sort of phenomena happening,

Because humans experience something it does not mean their reports are real

Many folk report the presence of god in their lifes for example
Some claim to be able to feel magnetism. Some can read your aura. just because some folk claim it is so does not make it real.

However there are just some cases that just cannot be easily dismissed

Of course not that is odds work – if we get 2 million claims of the supernatural some will be more credible than others.

but an open mind that there are still things out there that science can’t yet explain is healthy too.

I think we all know science cannot explain tons of things [ or it would have stopped trying as we would know everything. This is more about whether its a real subject to study rather than whether we can explain it as there is no real data to explain. Science cannot explain how to turn lead into gold – its either because you cannot or science is flawed.

After all science is littered with over turned theories that at one time or another were thought credible.

Its far more littered with areas of study now debunked – mysticism, alchemy, homeopathy, astrology etc and the scientific method was what led to them being replaced. this is sciences strength – you cannot use it as weakness – as it shows that with enough evidence you can persuade science to switch paradigm unlike those of “faith”

Even the wackier ones like expanding Earth theory only got properly demolished in the past 50 years once better technology could be used to measure plate tectonics.

You mean the did some empirical measures , found no evidence of it and rejected it …wow imagine !

However there are just some cases that just cannot be easily dismissed. The book in the link below is a good example – it could be easily dismissed except it happened to a leading neurosurgeon who was able to look at all the usual explanations for what he went through. The guy certainly isn’t crazy and, I’d argue knows more about the human brain than anyone posting in this thread.

I tell you what explains that. First off, he’s a surgeon and therefore a ****. Secondly, he suffered massive brain damage and consequently lost the plot – real scientists have been known to lose the plot as well and believe in bollocks. The infamous one being Peter Duesberg.

TA – for those who say that the area of the paranormal doesn’t fit in with current science I’d suggest you take a look at psychological research into the consciousness. Lots of difficult questions remaining to be answered there – here’s a primer from a psychologist who incidentally spent a while studying parapsychology

There are much better primers than that now, blindsight is a hell of a lot better understood than it was back in 2001. (I believe)

I think you are well aware of what was meant – do either organisation given awards to pedants?

Either? Neither the American Institute of Civil Engineers, nor the Nobel Foundation seem to do a prize for ghostbusting so it’s still cobblers regardless of which was intended.

However, whether they give awards to pedants is hard to answer without investigating all the winners. It seems that they don’t give awards for pedantry, but whether any of those who won awards for other things were also pedants is not easily judged. Certainly, I can’t see anything that says that people who are pedants are disqualified, so it is quite likely that they do, or certainly could, give awards to pedants.

btw

I think you are well aware of what was meant – do either organisation given awards to pedants?

FTFY. You’re welcome.

True Tom, but that one had the added bonus of an author who spent 25 years trying (and failing) to find scientific evidence of paranormal activity and eventually turning their back on the whole subject.

Neither the American Institute of Civil Engineers, nor the Nobel Foundation seem to do a prize for ghostbusting so it’s still cobblers regardless of which was intended.

You don’t think conclusive proof of ghosts would result in a Nobel prize?

You don’t think conclusive proof of ghosts would result in a Nobel prize?

Seems fairly likley. Proving the existance some sort of indestructable ‘soul’ would be pretty incredible*.

*for the pedants, I believe incredible is used correctly here.

I tell you what explains that. First off, he’s a surgeon and therefore a ****. Secondly, he suffered massive brain damage and consequently lost the plot – real scientists have been known to lose the plot as well and believe in bollocks. The infamous one being Peter Duesberg.

That’s pretty much the type of ad-hominem response I expected 😉

You have not read his book, and yet you describe him as a **** for being a Surgeon and then state he suffered serious brain damage – which if you read the book you would know that he did not.

His recovery in itself is a minor medical mystery as all the machines he was hooked up to showed he was clinically brain dead with no neural activity for an extended period. The doctors looking after him really did not rate his chances of survival.

Having read the book I can pick holes in it and surmise what may have happened with logical explanations… but these are all things he tries to explain as to why he thinks them unlikely – the fact he is a neurosurgeon is what makes this part of the book interesting.

Get hold of a copy and read it; it has some horribly American emotional bits, and the guy was already a church goer before his illness but those are not reasons to dismiss his story out of hand. It’s probably unlikely to change your view point but at least you’d probably have some respect for the chap…

Its far more littered with areas of study now debunked – mysticism, alchemy, homeopathy, astrology etc and the scientific method was what led to them being replaced. this is sciences strength – you cannot use it as weakness – as it shows that with enough evidence you can persuade science to switch paradigm unlike those of “faith”

Even the wackier ones like expanding Earth theory only got properly demolished in the past 50 years once better technology could be used to measure plate tectonics.

You mean the did some empirical measures , found no evidence of it and rejected it …wow imagine !

You clearly like preaching to the converted, I find myself tempted to strongly argue in agreement with you, but what’s the point, you’ll just find a stronger argument to agree back at me with…

We are not agreeing as you seem to think that some areas cannot be easily dismissed

His recovery in itself is a minor medical mystery as all the machines he was hooked up to showed he was clinically brain dead with no neural activity for an extended period

It may be unexplained but the view he went to heaven and then came back seems the least likely one. Perhaps we should call it a miracle? Your evidence is from the brain of the person who was “dead” [ he was not ] remembering what happened when he was dead. I assume we can reasonably conclude, whatever happened, that his brain was working or else he would not remember anything for there would be nothing to remember and nothing capable of remembering. Someone’s recall, however heartfelt and honest, is not actually proof. How many athletes thank god for winning yet they still train there arses off for example. Just because they say it is not automatically true.

ed correcting my typos is a FT job, enjoy- you seem to anyway :wink:.
As to the only point you made as noted above you are wrong. If you captured and proved the existence of a hitherto unknown phenomena of this magnitude [ghosts]you would be awarded.

It’s great that science can now give us a good explanation of near death experiences and out of body awareness. We didn’t have those explanations until recently.

I have yet to see equivalent explanations for shared ghost experiences (like the cat meow) and for deja vu (earlier post seeing his dad twice). The only explanations have been nope they must be lying or mistaken.

I think there is probably more to it. The lack of hard evidence and that its based on personal perception make for a difficult study. Yet even on this small sample of a forum we have people who have experienced these things.

Can the next STW poll be – What paranormal experience have you had? 😉

.. I once saw a trail come alive…

I have yet to see equivalent explanations for shared ghost experiences (like the cat meow) and for deja vu (earlier post seeing his dad twice). The only explanations have been nope they must be lying or mistaken.

There are three possibilities:
1. The person making the report is lying;
2. The person making the report is mistaken;
3. Cat ghosts.

I’d say that explanation 3 is the least likely one, wouldn’t you?

I have yet to see equivalent explanations for shared ghost experiences

Me neither, but it’s certainly curious.

Miketually, you almost completely paraphrased my comment from early on in the thread 🙂

A mate of mine tripping with some others got chased by aliens [ in a ship initially then they beamed down] and they all ended up split up as they ran away and yet they all saw the same thing 😯

Not sure how I would explain that either but it really happened is not amongst my choices

Miketually, you almost completely paraphrased my comment from early on in the thread

You’re overlooking the obvious telepathic connection between your minds, after all how do we know mike had seen your post? Spooky!

When I was very young (approx 4 or 5), as most young’uns would do, I occasionally went into my parents room to sleep during the night.

On something like a dozen occasions, the next day, I would recount to my parents that ‘the man drinking tea was waving at me again (last night)’

In fact I have a vivid memory to this day, of seeing a transparent figure of a man pacing up and down the end of the room and occasionally waving at me. I seem to also recall him holding a cup and saucer and sipping from it. And sometimes sitting down in a chair.

It wasnt until I was about 13 that during a family gathering this subject came up in conversation and my folks let on that the only reason we lived in that particular flat/conversion was because the previous occupant commited suicide – in that bedroom (therefore becoming available quickly/at a good price).

Apparently having a 4 year old tell you about the ghost in your bedroom after such an event is fairly disturbing!
Still, an offering of PG Tips would have kept things on an even keel no doubt..

Mum also told me a few years later that one night she also felt dad getting into bed, and freezing as she felt his hairy legs brush against her legs – as my dad doesnt have hairy legs.
Apparently she got straight out of bed, and of course there was no one else in it.
She never told dad as she knew it would be rubbished, but I could tell from her explanation that she had been genuinely spooked.

Yes, there is always a logical explanation, but its interesting to consider the possiblilities never the less.
I’m not a ‘believer’ as such, but that experience from all those years ago sends a little shiver to think about now.

You have not read his book, and yet you describe him as a **** for being a Surgeon and then state he suffered serious brain damage – which if you read the book you would know that he did not.

“Scans of his brain revealed massive damage”.

the fact he is a neurosurgeon is what makes this part of the book interesting.

Do you find Peter Duesbergs claims about HIV interesting just because he was a prize winning scientist beforehand?

Buhahahaha

Alexander also writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of E. coli bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while Dr. Potter says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating.

You’re overlooking the obvious telepathic connection between your minds, after all how do we know mike had seen your post? Spooky!

There are two possibilities:
1. Molgrips and I have a telepathic connections;
2. We both spend too much time on STW.