This is because I want to live in a country that looks after the most vulnerable people and does not saddle the young with huge debts just so that they can get a good education.

There is no evidence that a separate Scotland would be in a better position to “look after the most vulnerable” if that’s your goal (making people less vulnerable would be a better goal imo) and some convincing evidence that a separate Scotland would have to carry out significant cuts in social spending.

The evidence points in the other direction….. (Caveat, if anything)

some convincing evidence that a separate Scotland would have to carry out significant cuts in social spending.

Do you have any links to any high quality evidence that shows this? I doubt that you do as I can’t see that kind of thing being independently funded so as to produce unbiased research findings.

Yes plenty, but it tends to get dismissed as bullying, bluffing and what was the third one……?

It does not need to be in a better position [ financially] it justr needs a commitment to it.

All but the most churlish would agree scotland will be a little nicer to its citizens than a Tory led govt

has anything that either of the sides of the debate has argued changed they way you are going to vote?

I cannot vote but I would in the main I would agree with much of what THM has said in that post up there [ I bet even this gets called troll or he may just take credit for edumakating me , hard to call 😉 ]

The more you read and the more they say the more Ys seem to be arguing for some strange hybrid half way house that is neither independence nor union.

As for ernie claim it is a polemic and it depends what figures you believe. I dont believe the figures of any politician nor economist but it seems fairly certain iS will try and be nicer to its citizens that a bunch of tories will

The more you read and the more they say the more Ys seem to be arguing for some strange hybrid half way house that is neither independence nor union.

The “Devo Max” option that the SNP wanted to be included on the ballot paper?

They do not have that option but in essence it does seem to be what they are arguing for.

They don’t have that option, but they did ask for it. As I said earlier the best of the two remaining options is to leave.

I quite enjoyed reading this thought provoking article earlier today. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/07/17/dinner-with-no-voters-or-what-i-wanted-to-say-before-the-pudding-hit-the-fan/

As an example…

A Scottish government spokeswoman said Scotland would still end up with a lower debt-to-GDP ratio than the UK, and any deal on debt must also include “a fair share of the assets of the current UK” – a formula Scottish ministers say includes a deal to share the pound.

The spokeswoman also claimed the NIESR’s analysis was mistaken. The findings “misunderstand how government debt works…..

Says the woman who prefaces this accusation by showing (1) she doesn’t know what an asset is and (3) she doesn’t understand debt-to-GDP..

It would be funny if it wasn’t so important

The evidence is based on two facts, firstly the European Fiscal Compact which Scotland would almost certainly have to comply with, and the level of debt that the EU is likely to calculate an “independent” Scotland would have.

And secondly an “independent” Scotland would not “put itself at a tax disadvantage with the rest of the UK” is the promise being made, more specifically that’s aimed primarily at corporation tax. Tax cuts, which is what this means, result in spending cuts.

Sorry I can’t be bothered to provide links.

I was talking about academic research carried out by people who have slightly more intelligence than your average politician.

The “Devo Max” option that the SNP wanted to be included on the ballot paper?

SNP had no mandate for a devo max question – it wasn’t mentioned in their manifesto

The irony is, that the end result of the No vote will probably be closer to DMax! The main parties have already shown their cards in that respect, they are vote collectors after all.

If AS was as canny as some suggest, he would see this, STFU, accept the law of unintended consequences and enjoy the opportunity to still be a big fish in a little pond and still be able to blame the English when suits. He would be like a pig in….

Tax cuts, which is what this means, result in spending cuts.

no wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. You might have been in favour ernie, but most Scots I know weren’t

Says the woman who prefaces this accusation by showing (1) she doesn’t know what an asset is and (3) she doesn’t understand debt-to-GDP..

It would be funny if it wasn’t so important
So is counting 😉

SNP had no mandate for a devo max question – it wasn’t mentioned in their manifesto

Unlike the Tory mandate to hold this vote with a coalition government

Worst scribble ever.

Stop playing the man THM re AsS.

No rUK politician has made anything other than sound bite flirtations re devo max and they do this to sway the voters.
there is nothing concrete on the table and I will be amazed if it is a manifesto pledge of any of them tbh. However you chose to respect these people of honour. At least apply your cynicism both ways, they are all BS to the electorate to get the outcome they want.

The irony is

that this thread has ron to 188 pages with virtually all the posts being from people who don’t get to vote

Yes odd that given that the vote has implications for all!

Afghanistan

Scots in not understanding the responsibilities under article 5 of NATO charter. shocker….

they are all BS to the electorate to get the outcome they want.

I think that we may have finally found something that all of STW can agree on. Will this cause the world to end?

Anyway the x-factor reject (I think?) is making a good fist of it at the castle now (bbc 1). Good gag from the comic too!

Scots in not understanding the responsibilities under article 5 of NATO charter. shocker….

Well seeing as you don’t have anything else to do with your time, please do explain how much was spent in Afgahnistan, why it was spent and what the benefit is, other than giving the daily mail readership some more dusky skinned heathens to hate.

that this thread has ron to 188 pages with virtually all the posts being from people who don’t get to vote

That may be true but for some reason AS keeps engaging non voters by giving referendum speeches in England

and you always rise to the bait do you? if so, i know this nigerian ex-president…

ChubbyBlokeInLycra – Member

no wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. You might have been in favour ernie, but most Scots I know weren’t

Well it’s true Chubby, I was right behind Tony Blair and his wars.

Of course as a full member of NATO an “independent” Scotland will simply ignore NATO-backed wars which it doesn’t fancy fighting in.

and you always rise to the bait do you?

Not particularly, I don’t think I’ve posted on this thread before the last one, so ‘always’ is probably stretching it a bit.

But the SNP seems to want to get non voters involved so I guess some will accommodate that.

please do explain how much was spent in Afgahnistan, why it was spent and what the benefit is,

Irrelevant straw man – Scotland plans to be part of NATO, if NATO article 5 is invoked then all constituent members of NATO are duty bound to collective defence, an attack on one is an attack on all.

that’ll be no then?

Not particularly, I don’t think I’ve posted on this thread before the last one, so ‘always’ is probably stretching it a bit.

,,and yet you did rise on this occaiasion, so you do rise. And you’ll probably do it again.

I made no comment on the referendum other than to indicate why non voters may be commenting following your post mentioning it

see? “always rise”

You’re very clever Chubby, your debating skills are awesome – you’re always catching people out.
How many points have you scored now ? 🙂

Wasn’t counting ernie, but when it comes to pointless point scoring, your little spats with ninfan et al probably score pretty high. Fortunately, I can’t really compete there

So is counting[/quote]

and spelling? 😉

Remember ‘Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead’? Well, it didn’t, and neither would Devo Max.

Absolutely – Scottish independence is inevitable. There’s A good article in the NY Times about that.

ChubbyBlokeInLycra – Member

Wasn’t counting ernie, but when it comes to pointless point scoring, your little spats with ninfan et al probably score pretty high. Fortunately, I can’t really compete there

Gosh, you’ve really caught me out there with that retort, you’re on a roll tonight, aren’t you mate. How many people have you slapped down now ?

Ben that is a very impartial article written in the NY Times….by a Scot! 🙄

The writer of the article is going back to scotland to vote yes and he lives in London. He doesn’t want Scotland ruled from England but is happy to be ruled by it himself. Go figure that out?

and spelling?

mossively impertant to sum 😉

Are you suggesting there is a typo in counting ?

Faster no one is impartial on this debate so anyone who writes anything can be accused of bias. Its generally better to address the issue they raise rather than point out that someone who is arguing for independence is biased for independence and the ignoring them or else I can simply say

You dont want independence so you are biased …..I doubt we would get to this many pages with this approach

the author does a fairly reasonable job of being balanced and presents the yes and the no cases reasonably impartially – certainly better than the bile posted on here [ from both sides]

I think they have a point – perhaps like the EU for the UK it wont go away whatever the vote.

That’s just it, the issue will not go away even if NO achieve a 75% of the vote (which isn’t going to happen).
For that reason its best for both parties – but IMO especially the UK – that the result is a YES vote.

Muddy everyone is in the UK both parties would be iS and rUK.