One for the audio physics deniers

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/

I bet that’s because they had the directional Monster cable pointing in the wrong direction 😛

Coathangers is genius! 😀

Woppit will be along soon and explain it to you – so just hang 🙂 on in there

where can I get some of these high-grade coathangers?

Spoof.

where can I get some of these high-grade coathangers?

I have a barely used pair you can have for £350. email in profile.

Good quote from Roger Russell – a former engineer and speaker designer for McIntosh Labs – that works quite well with MTBs too:-

“The strategy in selling these products is, in part, to appeal to those who are looking to impress others with something unique and expensive.”

Spoof

Possibly; but there was a similar ‘test’ done with wet string at an audio fair a few years ago, with similar results.

I once swapped some Q.E.D. speaker cable for ordinary electrical wiring just to see what difference it would make.

The difference was as obvious as chalk and cheese, no “magic ears” required.

Q.E.D – musical, sound-staging, clarity etc. Electrical cabling – harsh, flat. The visual analogy would be between watching a HD flat screen digital TV and an old black and white analogue set.

The system was Thorens TD160/A&R A60/Mordaunt Short. Not even reference HiFi.

the sound would have been even better if they’d had the coat hangers pointing into the wardrobe instead of out, amateurs 😆

I once swapped some Q.E.D. speaker cable for ordinary electrical wiring just to see what difference it would make.

The difference was as obvious as chalk and cheese, no “magic ears” required.

You go ahead and believe that 😉

Monster are a bunch of aunts anyway.

Thankyou, but I don’t need your permission. Or mis-direction as to what I typed.

God told me there’s no difference. And let’s face it, he’s a much higher authority on this sort of thing.

In fairness, electrical cable is getting the most area into the smallest space, thus you’re going to get interferance. I tried maplins cheep cable Vs some chunky expensive looking stuff, there was a difference, chunky expensive looking stuff Vs actual expensive stuff, no difference.

If you like this sort of inverese snobbery read ‘elephants on acid’, they did a similar test on wine buffs. Cheep plonk red, Vs expensive Red, Vs white wine with food colouring. They all thought they were drinking whatever they were told they were drinking.

For those who are actually interested in the technical aspect of this argument, there’s a good article here on the subject http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_16_r.pdf

Does a bit of modelling of various wierd and wonderful wires.

Mr Woppit – What property of the QED cable makes it so much better than the mains cable?

Do you agree that two cables with the same L,C,R meausurements will perform identically?

Do you agree that two cables with the same L,C,R meausurements will perform identically?

Are we also measuring the signal in the imaginary plane where $,£,€ can predominate?

if you’ve dropped enough cash, you can probably hear anything you want

the placebo effect innit – very powerful thing

Do you agree that two cables with the same L,C,R meausurements will perform identically?

I am sure he does but I have also tried main cable and found that it is lacking compared to my other, modestly priced, speaker cables.

We all know the premise that speaker cables should make no difference, but it seems to me that they become a non-trivial part of the ‘circuit’ between your amp and speakers.

I have some Quad power-amps, which shoud be decently engineered, but if I use 4mm stranded speaker cable and certain speaker loads they sound like an HF filter has been added, swap back to some 2.5mm stranded cable and everything is back to normal with the amps acting like a ‘straight-wire-with-gain’, as they are suppossed to.

Those that want to believe will…

what if you don’t want to believe but have experienced these differences?

what if you want to use the cheaper cabling, but find you can’t?

Surely the placebo effect only works properly if you are ‘wanting’ a change.

I have some Quad power-amps, which shoud be decently engineered, but if I use 4mm stranded speaker cable and certain speaker loads they sound like an HF filter has been added, swap back to some 2.5mm stranded cable and everything is back to normal with the amps acting like a ‘straight-wire-with-gain’, as they are suppossed to.

If you can prove that with a properly calibrated mic etc under proper test conditions, I will believe you.

Mr Woppit – What property of the QED cable makes it so much better than the mains cable?

Clearly, though you can write, you seem unable to read.

For those who are actually interested in the technical aspect of this argument, there’s a good article here on the subject http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_16_r.pdf

Was an interesting article that, if you have long runs of speaker cable then spend enough to get low impedence. If you have a short run then it just doesn’t matter. So coat hangers probably would sound the same as Monster cable over 1 metre

I think the cable business is real – there is a difference but you get into diminishing returns very quickly.

I could hear the difference between bell wire and 2&E and then £3 a metre speaker cable was better again. I doubt however that £30 a m speaker cable is noticeably better again

I think the 10% rule is a pretty reasonable one for sensibly priced kit

If you got £600 worth of seperates then spend £20 on an interconnect and £40 on speaker cable (or a variation thereof) is pretty sensible.

Once you get to £10,000 of hi-fi kit then spending £1000 on cables starts to look a bit daft (but then most people would think that spending that on hi-fi was daft in the first place)

I’ll declare my interest and let you know I have a collection of much loved Audiolab kit (the made in England stuff) and I’m probably a bit below the 10% rule

If you can prove that with a properly calibrated mic etc under proper test conditions, I will believe you.

Don’t think I can be bothered.

At the time I was installing some expensive external crossovers into my system so 3 runs of cable per side.

I choose some Quad speaker cable I had in my collection, primarily as I had Quad power amps. 4mm stranded.

Plugged it all in and thought that it sounded very odd.

Spent ages, in a state of annoyance, switching stuff around, checking phases, etc.

Ended up using a much cheaper cable or 2.5mm diameter and it all sounded good again.

Differences were quite clear to be heard. I have also heard them using other setups, with that 4mm cable and always with some LS3/5as. Much larger than the differences I ‘think’ I might be able to hear between my Kef and Nordost cables, for which I would need a DBT to be sure of.

With larger (easier to drive/less complicated crossovers) speakers I haven’t heard these differences. Also not with tube amps.

£30 per meter – hmmm. I regularly go into a shop selling these:
http://www.mitcables.com/available-online/speaker-interfaces.html

8ft for $37,000 does sound quite expensive, but if you want 20ft it’s only $41,000 so not too bad

🙂

Anything over £8 a metre and I would have a DBT at home.

Used to supply this guy with his liquid nitrogen… a / b demo on treated / not treated pairs of interconnects was an ‘ear opener’ – being a cynic though, i asked him to run it again and not tell me which was which – still, it was evident which the treated pair were…
I’d still want to do a full blind listening though, to be convinced…. 🙂

FWIW – i’m with TJ – my 2 bit system is connected with home made (not by me) silver and gold interconnect and QED Silver speaker stuff – beyond that i’d struggle to be convinced of added value….

On the flip side, a mate of mine was instrumental in the design + development of the digital amplifier in the NAD M2 – £5k of amplifier…. His own system is considerably more modest, worth a little less than just an M2 alone and he does not use any form of fancy interconnect.

He was able to bring an early production version of the M2 home one weekend – truly and amazing piece of kit – and that’s from a cynic… 🙂

It’s limited by simple physics. There’s some basic features a good cable will have that will make notable differences in sound, these are all available on £5 a metre cable as far as I’m aware, beyond that you’ll see no difference other than a) if you’re looking for it or b) if you’re pumping kW down tiny cables. It’s common sense and when it’s something that’s open to subjective judgement it’s like shooting “‘philes” in a barrel – some monkey will give you hundreds for cables thinking they’re great. I’d like to see research as to what was a measurable perceptible difference for human hearing and how these cables make at least that difference. Without it I am quite happy to chuckle about it.

You can chuckle all you want but if I do a DBT and the result is that something actually sounds better, then I am going to ignore the physics behind it and buy it, or investigate why it sounded better and whether I can get the same effects at a cheaper price.

So Woppit just ‘believes’ that the cables are better despite the lack of any objective evidence – just like people ‘believe’ they have spoken to God etc 😆

Why not go and claim James Randi’s $1 million if you are so confident?

There’s not really much point in debating whether it’ll make a difference or not, when there’s an easy way to tell for yourself.

Most shops will lend cables for home demo as long as you leave a deposit.

My thoughts are that cables in the analogue domain make a huge difference (not always in line with dearer=better).

Cables in the digital domain make very little difference. As long as they are of sufficient quality to transmit the data at the speed/volume required.

Anyway – cables are child’s play.
When you go to a hifi show and they replace a stand shelf with one of a different shape (square vs guitar shaped) and do an A/B test – that’s when you can start the debate proper.

You can chuckle all you want but if I do a DBT and the result is that something actually sounds better, then I am going to ignore the physics behind it and buy it, or investigate why it sounded better and whether I can get the same effects at a cheaper price.

Good for you. Are you going to try for the $1 million prize?

grum – Member
So Woppit just ‘believes’ that the cables are better despite the lack of any objective evidence

No I don’t. Although I do admire your ability to misrepresent me without evidently having read what I typed, convinced that what you are doing is somehow meaningfull.

Well done.

You can chuckle all you want but if I do a DBT and the result is that something actually sounds better, then I am going to ignore the physics behind it and buy it, or investigate why it sounded better and whether I can get the same effects at a cheaper price.

No-one ever seems to do independant tests to show these things though, without it it’s just pointless discussion.

I once swapped some Q.E.D. speaker cable for ordinary electrical wiring just to see what difference it would make.

The difference was as obvious as chalk and cheese, no “magic ears” required.

Quad once demonstrated their new speakers at a trade show, using hedge trimmer cable from B&Q. Still, I’m sure you know better than the hifi engineers.

I’ve no way of knowing, I didn’t attend that particular demo.

Your “surety” is misplaced.