I wonder how you would feel about people on benefit being given a say in how you lived your life?

I like the social model they had in Starship Troopers – you contribute to society, you get a vote.

I wonder how you would feel about people on benefit being given a say in how you lived your life?

no pay no say, like bike-ists on the roads innit.

But the bugs we are facing are our own ruling classes…

I’d guess the mountain bikers on this forum have a higher than average injury rate.

Maybe. Maybe not. Bit of a wild assumption really.

I’ve MTB’d for 20 years, never required NHS resources for any injury.

In fact, nobody in my family has ever ended up in hospital because of a hobby-related injury.

My sister on the other hand, who has never engaged in any risky or contact sport/activity in her life, has ended up in A&E on numerous occasions.

None of us are obese either. Whatever that’s got to do with it.

But the bugs we are facing are our own ruling classes…

…but the weapons are the…erm…hmm…nope..analogy gone.

Edit: Who are you talking to, Junkyard?

But the bugs we are facing are our own ruling classes…

lol, quite, except the bugs actually had at least one brain between them!

I’d guess the mountain bikers on this forum have a higher than average injury rate.

pretty sure the only time I’ve bothered the NHS due to cycling is when I picked up a tick, not sure that can be 100% classed as a cycling injury.

5 a side football on the other hand, that’s bloody dangerous that is.

All this talk of demonising food, is making my pain au chocolat sad 🙁

About access to exercise – someone mentioned swimming, and that it wasn’t free. That’s a particular bugbear of mine – in the past, swimming in summer was often free, done in lakes and rivers. But since th”n, masses of signs have gone up saying no swimming, and apart from a very few spots, swimming is officially banned in most of the previously popular places. For example, both where I grew up, and where I live currently, there are riverside parks that used to have swimming stages in the river, and now have big no swimming signs. There’s also been a massive cultural change against outdoor swimming – there are still kids jumping in rivers off rope swings in places, but nothing like the massive groups you see in old photos of the same places.

On the other hand, there is also the growing evidence that what fat people do in terms of healthy eating, exercise etc should be targeted at just having a healthy lifestyle, rather than at losing weight as such, as a fat person with a healthy lifestyle may be equally healthy to a thin person with a similar lifestyle, whereas losing weight by dieting has been associated with poor health outcomes in the long term (and is very rarely successful). Looking at that evidence, whilst targeting fat people and encouraging them to live healthy lifestyles may be useful, a high priority should be put on preventative measures to stop people becoming fat, like eductaing people about food, restricting or at least informatively labelling unhealthy foods, restricting advertising of junk foods to kids (and restricting the use of tv tie ins on food items like Thomas Yoghurts etc.),. oh and trying to remove or reduce social, financial and legal barriers to exercise.

Spongebob – Member
Penalising people who have got to this sorry state is harsh, but if claimants are able to get this big whilst being supported by the state, the benefits they are getting are probably too great!

Flawless logic.

So I believe it’s a fair policy, but as ever, pounced upon the loony left, who’ll have anyone who is perceived to be in a disadvantaged situation, who is not taking any personal responsibility for themselves, feeling like they are victims.

Bleurgh.

> Like those silly mountain bikers whose lifestyle choice costs you valuable NHS money…?
A crude and clummsy attempt at Trolling which requires no more response than this.

It’s not a troll – it’s a valid counter.

You see obesity as a lifestyle choice that is affecting you (by costing you tax money presumably) – but mountain biking and other “dangerous sports” also cost us NHS money. So does smoking, driving, drinking, DIY etc etc

Picking on one unhealthy lifestyle choice is a very slippery slope in my opinion.

Fwiw I’d back needing insurance for high risk sports injuries like mtbing, rugby etc but that’s a whole other can of low fat worms.

I’m not sure that making good exercise more expensive and more hassle is the best way to solve an obesity crisis.

And again, what about other “high risk” activities? A lot more people end up in A&E through DIY accidents or drinking than they do from mtbing – so should they need insurance too?

Does that graph include …

That graph is from here which abstracts it from:
Adams KF, Schatzkin A, Harris TB, Kipnis V, Mouw T, Ballard-Barbash R, Hollenbeck A, Leitzmann MF. Overweight, obesity and mortality in a large prospective cohort of persons 50 to 71 years old. N Engl J Med 2006; 355:763-778.

But it was really just the first clear one I found on Google. It is probably a little exaggerated as the sample group was older people (50 to 71). But there are quite a few studies that show very similar trends across populations – such as the meta study I mentioned showing 6% lower mortality in overweight people. Search for “mortality bmi” or similar and you’ll see what I mean. Note that many of the mortality graphs focus on being fat and don’t show the underweight section (BMI 18.5 or lower)

And it’s not just because underweight people are sick, though I’m sure that is a factor. For example this graph shows the relative risk (RR) of Cardiovascular Disease:

source

You see obesity as a lifestyle choice

No, obesity is the result of the body storing too much fat.

by costing you tax money presumably

So there you’re just putting words into my mouth.
Thanks.

I’m not sure I need reply any further. You seem to be arguing with me, on my behalf, all on your own. Enjoy.

Just spoke to my sister about this to try and get a balanced view (and yeah, teenage years done, she is pleased mum kept an eye on what she ate in those formative years and stopped a problem developing :-))

She’s a physio who gets a lot of GP referrals as well as private clients.

Estimate is that something like 50% of her work is “poor lifestyle” related GP referrals (hip & knee work for obese people is a particularly high proportion), 25% occupational health/work related injury, with the remaining 25% being sports injury/rehab etc. And around 50% of the sports injury related clients are self funded.

What I would draw from this is that we have a clear breakdown of proportionality of cost, from just one very small stream of healthcare provision, and it’s obvious that poor lifestyle and obesity related illness is costing the NHS and in turn the taxpayer a disproportionate amount of money. So yes, something should definitely be done to take a “prevention” line rather than “cure” – and if people won’t do it for themselves, someone should do it for them. Whether that’s benefits in restricted food vouchers or something else, there must be a solution to take away the opportunity to make a poor choice, as they clearly show they can’t make the right choices themselves, yet expect the country to pick up the tab.

> You see obesity as a lifestyle choice

No, obesity is the result of the body storing too much fat.

> by costing you tax money presumably

So there you’re just putting words into my mouth.
Thanks.

Apologies I’ve clearly misunderstood what you said. 😳

What did you mean by “I’d say yes to that, upto the point that someone else’s lifestyle choice, effects me. A type of honouring your responsibility to your community sort of thing. “ ?

I read that to mean that obesity is a lifestyle choice that other people make which affects you? (I presumed financially, but maybe you just can’t find trousers in your size any more?)

You seem to be arguing with me, on my behalf, all on your own. Enjoy.

No I’m not.

Yes you are.

Note that many of the mortality graphs focus on being fat and don’t show the underweight section

well I knew being very skinny was bad for you, was just surprised the skinny end was as high as the fat end, wondered if other contributing conditions were skewing it.

While I’d see over eating in a similar vein to anorexia/bulemia, psychological/body image/depression etc, creeping obesity (which i thought was a large part of the obesity epidemic) seems a bit different, lifestyle issues rather than medical condition.

Yeah I’d agree with that D0NK.

It’s been discussed that the unemployed should be made to work for their benefits, cleaning streets or whatever. That sounds right-wing.

However, you could do the same thing but call them state supplied jobs and it’d be a left wing idea, wouldn’t it?

Anyway, you could make those jobs something active like mowing the grass at schools etc. Two birds one stone.

NB this post is for argument use only and does not represent the personally held views of molgrips.

Fwiw I’d back needing insurance for high risk sports injuries like mtbing, rugby etc but that’s a whole other can of low fat worms.

I’m not sure that making good exercise more expensive and more hassle is the best way to solve an obesity crisis.

The expense would be a consequence of an attempt at consistent financial responsibility. There is plenty of free exercise out there if someone wanted it – walking, jogging, dancing, bending over to touch your toes to mention just a few.

Creeping obesity is a nice phrase, like someone side earlier it’s a combination of factors but it still needs addressing.

I’m ALL for working at least a few hours for your benefits too, can’t see a down side to it at all.

Graham.

Sorry if my post wasn’t as clear as it could have been.

It was a general point I was making in context to a post by Junkyard.

What I was trying to say is that I don’t have a problem with what people do with their body weight, until or unless it effects me personally.

I don’t believe obesity is a lifestyle choice for 99% of those who qualify as obese (yes I have met a few people who claim to be very happy with them being very over weight).

IMO, obesity is a result, of a body in which excess fat storage has taken hold and normal body fat regulation systems / processes have been down regulated or compromised. I feel that it is rooted in a lack of education combined with the agenda of food manufacturers. Although that is probably an over simplified view on the issues.

EDIT.

I’m off now, so if I don’t return. Have a good weekend, y’all.
😉

“The fat, thin, elderly, young, weak, poor, sick, those with or without pets and anyone who reads anything, particularly facts, are the “root of all problems”, said someone in Parliament somewhere today. The government announced that these would be the targets of their new policies to lower the debt or perhaps deficit – depending on which week it is and what they said last time – for 2013.

According to a party spokesperson there are two major factors for this fresh, new stance. Firstly they are taking into consideration that absolutely none of their plans to kick-start the economy have worked so far and they have no other ideas. Secondly they’ve looked at the way that countries such as Iceland and now even the US are gradually clawing their way back into the international market, and have decided to ignore their tactics as that would be too sensible and no way as fun as “just killing off the population”.

Obese people are the first to be targeted because, as the Health Secretary said “they are easy targets on account of there being more to fire at. Harder to miss you see? Why can’t I just shoot them? Who makes these bloody laws anyway?”

Anyone whose BMI scale is higher than that of any of the athletes who won gold shiny things at the Olympics, will be forced to go to the gym or have their benefits cut. The hope is that without benefits these ‘money gulpers’ will have less money to be able to afford to eat decent and healthy food, therefore increasing their size rapidly and dying of heart attacks before the welfare system has to deal with their ungrateful selves.

The think tank study into this suggests that their “whale-like carcasses can be used to burn as fuel for our fancy cars and jet planes or to create more soylent green than the average impoverished orphan. This could then feed several impoverished orphans at once so they can work in factories longer.”

Next up are the elderly who the government suggest that it’s best to just “freeze back into work”. The Department of Health, working alongside the Department of Work and Pensions on this area of debt reduction say that by taking away winter fuel allowance elderly people will be more inclined to go out and work in order to stay warm via movement and heaters in the workplace.

“Should all go to plan”, said another spokesperson to the one earlier, “their homes will be too cold to return to, and they’ll have to stay at work all night. Then we can repossess their flats and house and sell them to millionaires to keep those whacking great truffles in”. Calling it the ‘Work To Live, Until You Die As You Haven’t Long Left’ scheme, or WTLUYDAYHLL for short, it’s hoped that this will save the government tens of pounds. Ultimately this’ll mean they can definitely continue to ignore any tax not coming in from huge companies that take them to lunch, as they really do like lunch.

All this should ensure that taxpayers money is not spent on those who “suck the life out of the tax system like poverty tramp leeches, disgusting, disgusting poor people. Urgh, urgh I feel sick thinking about them” and rather on increasing minister’s salaries along a higher rate than the 121% increase they’ve had in the last five years. The Secretary For Work and Pensions aims to change his job title to Lord of The Strong, Damner Of The Weak and Pathetic to highlight exactly what he has to deal with. He said: “I just don’t understand why these people feel they should have anything ever. We’ve taken away lots of jobs and now they are complaining they can’t get jobs. Well, I think it’s as though they aren’t even trying to get the jobs that we’ve made sure aren’t there. And if they aren’t trying, then why on earth should they be allowed to eat, or stay warm, or get around or just generally not die?”

Changing their slogan to ‘The Party for People Who Hate People Who Aren’t Their Friends’ they are hoping this new ‘honest’ face will increase votes in 2015. Or at least kill off anyone who might vote against them. Over the next six months its rumoured all houses without working chimneys will have them restored so children can sweep them for sixpence and ‘stop trying to learn anything, the bloody skivers’ while plans to use disabled people as speed bumps in roads are still being discussed.

The PM stated: “Look we can’t just splash money on an Olympics and Jubilee every year so we’ve just given up trying to pretend we think you deserve to be even remotely happy. Unless someone comes up with a better idea you’ll just have to knuckle down and accept 2013 is going to be crap for everyone that is too lazy to afford to go on a skiing holiday.”