Not In My Name: Trans Athlete Bans

Some are asserting their boundaries others are definitely not and for any other protected human characteristic they would be charged and prosecuted for their hateful language/actions.

Are you perhaps referring to the 9 protected characteristics in the UK’s Equality Act? Sex is one of those characteristics, ‘gender’ is not (gender reassignment is) yet organisations everywhere are swapping sex for gender in their policies. My sex is a protected characteristic, so is my sexual orientation. You cannot discuss the issues without using clear language. Trans women should be excluded from women’s sports because they are male. It is not hate to state that.

The attempts to confuse language are deliberate.

a number of people say once you read the research it becomes a little more muddled. I agree it’s not black and white.

there is no consensus between the IOC and British cycling for example, yet I expect both have done at least as much ‘research’ on the matter as any poster on here.

Until there is consensus, based on scientific evidence, I think the relevant sporting bodies should be allowed to reach their own conclusions based on what they think is fair for their sport. If that means it transpires later down the line that a small number of trans athletes are unfairly treated then that’s unfortunate, but far better that than woman’s sport as a whole suffering if the evidence comes down on the other side..imo

<span style=”caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”>they would be charged and prosecuted for their hateful language/actions
</span>

Agreed, but I’m not seeing any of that on this thread. If a thread is started about this subject then it is to be expected that view and opinions on both sides are aired, and as long as that’s done respectfully then I don’t see the issue

just because someone thinks it doesn’t make for fair competition doesn’t make them a transphobe.

if alternate opinions aren’t welcome I suggest that threads started on this topic should be banned.

edit..what on earth is going on with the quote function on this site.!!

but I’m not seeing any of that on this thread

Pity the Mods. Imagine their delight in seeing yet another thread/article on this issue popping up. 😂

if alternate opinions aren’t welcome I suggest that threads started on this topic should be banned.

If a forum member had started this thread (or one of an opposing view) it would have been closed in double-quick time.

See my  previous post 😉

I support sporting categories that exclude.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of ability, so that disabled athletes can be included in sport.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of age, so that youth and senior athletes can be included in sport.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of sex, so that women can be included in sport.

Everyone here supports exclusion too. It’s simply a debate about whether the women’s category should exclude on the basis of sex or on the basis of gender identity.

Sex matters in sports, folks. That’s why we have women’s categories.

Nailed it. If we support separate categories for differently abled people then it’s plainly obvious to me that separate categories for trans athletes are also required. You maximise inclusion through the process of exclusion.

Alot of of STW middle aged gammons have, and do, work in a very ‘inclusive’ environment – I know I do…But there is something a little different at elite sport level, and we have to acknowledge that. We can’t shuffle this under the table.

I mean, you and I (both middle aged gammons who aren’t ever going to compete at elite level, I assume) could quite easily not bother to acknowledge it and shuffle it under the table. It would not make any difference to elite sport at all.

But if spout our opinions in a disrespectful or hateful way (and I am not saying you are, and I hope am I not), we could end up having this effect:

What I will say is that trans elite athletes are a tiny percentage of a small percentage of the population. However, EVERY trans/non-binary person I know has seen a huge increase in the amount of hate and intolerance since this has become “news”. So, just think before you speak/type please and thank you.

It does seem weird to discover such rabid support among my fellow male gammons for women’s rights, despite so few having ever done much for women’s sport before the “trans issue”…

Like many I’ve been pondering this for quite a while, expressed my views, and probably altered them a bit as the whole concept matured. We are clearly a long way from resolved however.

Where I have come to is that both ‘sides’ could do with a bit more understanding and cooperation.

1. Sports and their governing bodies – people ‘playing’ or doing their sport at a recreational level is a great thing – great for the popularity of the sport you care about but far more importantly great for the participants overall well being. Making your sport welcoming and accessible for anyone of any gender at any level so they can do it recreationally should be the primary aim of every governing body – more important than elite sports. Very easy for a sport like cycling – buy bike, then go ride. Job jobbed. No need for it to be a race and start dividing participants up – just a road or a track and crack on. Do it solo, do it with friends or clubmates. Do it for the scenery, do it for the social aspect or do it to destroy yourself physically – it’s all good. Probably a lot harder for sports where doing it by necessity involves competition – you need someone to play and winning or losing is inherent to participation. But find a way – it’s your job. Too many sports (and cycling pretty much falls into this) have the narrative that “once you are competent, you can turn it into a competition”. That where I ended up with cycling. It’s bollox – yes competition is one way forwards, but how about a default mindset change – why do we need to make it about competition at all?

2. The transgender participants – If we are allowed to talk in collectives, I’m coming to the conclusion that there is a lot of egocentric thinking going on – it’s all about them as far as some of them are concerned. What can they do, what are they entitled to do or are being deprived of. I think in the big scheme of things too much of a shit is being given. I sit here as a man, and I’m lucky in that I’ve never gone through the anxiety of questioning it. But if I did go through that momentous change being able to participate in competitive sport would be way way way down on my list of priorities of what would most important to me going forward. Maybe it’s easier to be objective because it’s not about me; but I could totally see that some would question any unfair advantage I might have from my past history. They might not be right – hell, as a science orientated person I’d probably want to be a research subject in some research to help further the understanding. But whatever, I would not be stamping my feet and making it about me – I wouldn’t want it in my head. With so much going on in my life and so many many alternative things I could be doing in my life I just don’t think I’d be going there. I’d probably be riding a bike or paddling a kayak to view the scenery, have social time or beast myself….just like I do right now.

So to conclude – governing bodies need to make access for all to recreationally participate a much higher priority than it does, trans wannabe competitors need to get some perspective, and we all need to chill and stop making competition outside of our professional lives such a biggie – we’d all be better off for it.

Sidenote – if we are talking professional participation….someone with better statistical analysis might be able to help…what proportion of the population are predisposed to elite level sporting performance – one in a thousand, one in 10 thousand? And what proportion of people born biologically male are considering a gender change – surely a similarly tiny number. If the distribution was even between the two groupings the intersection between the two must be microscopic – one in a million, 10 million of the population maybe. Please lets not have all policy dictated to make judgments for this tiny group when getting everyone enjoying life and just plain participating, regardless of gender is so much more important.

Sidenote to the sidenote – if I was a male athlete and was very much a mediocre also-ran in terms of performance who then changed gender to female and found I was suddenly capable of elite performance I might be having a word with myself about why that be. If I was still an also ran I probably would be kicking off about wanting to carry on participating for wellbeing reasons because I’m still no threat to the medal tables or taking someonelse’s funding.

BruceWee

Oh, and if you are going to say that transwomen have a purely physical advantage over ciswomen in sport (as opposed to a cultural advantage by being raised as boys and thus having more access, support, and encouragement to take part in sport) then please show your working.

That means posting a link to research.

That doesn’t mean posting a link to a BBC article reporting on the research.

It also doesn’t mean posting a link to paywalled research that only gives you the abstract and conclusion.

Once you actually read some of the research, as I have, you realise the conclusions don’t always tally with the results. And that’s assuming there aren’t glaring problems with the methodology to begin with. Which there always are.

The only conclusion you can really draw from the limited research so far is ‘More research needed.’ Which is made more difficult when you ban trans athletes. But I suspect that is the idea.

I’m just gonna come out and say it: I’m not smart enough to be pointing out errors in scientific research in a field I am not an expert in.

I let the experts do the research and trust the peer review process to ensure it is valid, and I think it is entirely reasonable for a lay person to do this.

If however somebody is smart enough to do so, then I would dearly hope that they write to the authors of the paper and the editors of the publication to inform them of the errors, rather than just asserting that the research is invalid on a mountain biking forum.

if I did go through that momentous change being able to participate in competitive sport would be way way way down on my list of priorities of what would most important to me going forward.

Anyone undertaking a F-M transition will have had to face this issue already as there are few sports where they’d expect to remain competitive, but those aren’t the transgender voices we all hear.

let the experts do the research and trust the peer review process to ensure it is valid, and I think it is entirely reasonable for a lay person to do this.

agreed, but the ‘experts’ have come to different conclusions, which imo is where the issue lies. If every scientist with knowledge of the subject said they have a distinct advantage, then the arguement would be purely about inclusivity. And for me fairness for majority trumps the right to play competitive sport for the minority

but it’s not that clear cut, otherwise why has the IOC not banned trans athletes? Brucewee’s opinion based on what he has read is valid, as you’ll find qualified people who actually know what they are talking about agreeing with him. Equally you’ll fine many opposing viewpoints within the scientific field

i suspect that both sides may be right to an extent, some trans athletes will retain an advantage whilst others may not. How do you possibly legislate for that?

@scotroutes

I chose my words carefully by using woman and not female.

Unfortunately, you can choose those words as carefully as you like – woman and female can be used to describe either or both of sex or gender.

Language – especially English – is the root of a lot of these problems.    There are 18 different words in Thai to describe different genders and there ain’t the same outrage over there as there is here.

We should be doing that in English too…

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>If M-F trans are allowed to compete then, given the history of elite sport, it doesn’t take that much of a leap to suggest that some nations, of a more authoritarian regime, would quite happily have athletes transition in the name of national pride and winning lots of elite sport. Many virtually did this via doping in the past, do people not think this would be exploited in the same way?</span>

Anyone undertaking a F-M transition will have had to face this issue already as there are few sports where they’d expect to remain competitive, but those aren’t the transgender voices we all hear.

Yes, good point. I suppose they would not be officially excluded but might well find themselves effectively rejected from their current sport as where they were once the first name on the team sheet, they can no longer even get a place to warm a seat on the bench. And yet for lots of very good reasons they still went ahead with their decision. It would be interesting to hear the story of someone who undertook a F-M transition and how they tackled a change in mindset towards sport afterwards or if they went off and found other things to fill their recreational time.

I’d missed that STW had taken an “official editorial response” to the Government’s position on trans athletes.

I just read it – and I clearly agree with a lot of what is written there (I’ve voiced as much – including the fact that the sports question is being used to deny support of our trans brothers and sisters in day-to-day life).

However this:

Trans women are women, Trans men are men, and sport is for all

Is an unfortunately overly simplistic and jingoistic view of the world and sloganeering shouldn’t have any place in intellectual debate (though it undoubtedly does).

Trans women are women.  Absolutely agree with that 100%.  I’ve stated precicely this.

Trans women are also men, however.  And that is where the fundamental problem is.

So whilst I’m fully behind inclusion and diversity I cannot support this overly simplistic view of the world – one that causes more harm than good, despite the genuinely held and admirable beliefs which lead STW to take that position.

But, being an advocate of free speech, whilst I disagree with and dislike the STW position, I fully support your right to hold that opinion, and will continue to subscribe.

STW does way more good than bad.  Your motivations are clearly good.  The position is sadly misguided.  No point in falling out over that as we’re all adults.   Shame that when Cranked took a similar position that it lost subscribers.  Hope that doesn’t happen here.

@scotroutes, I don’t think allowing self-id for competitive sport makes any more sense than it would to allow self-id for weight classes in sports that have them.

Shame that when Cranked took a similar position that it lost subscribers. Hope that doesn’t happen here.

I don’t have any real interest in MTBs these days; the only reason I still subscribe is so that I can contribute a tiny bit to keeping this sort of stuff alive and kicking.

I’m not well-informed enough to have a soundly-reasoned opinion on the matter (and as a genetic member of most “in” groups with an inherent limit to how well-informed I can truly be, I feel I’m only really justified in airing opinions about people who have unsoundly-reasoned opinions or who over-react to soundly-reasoned ones, rather than about the matter itself) but rational and circumspect pieces like this help, step by step, to construct sound reasoning.

Props for writing it and publishing it.

It’s widely seen that keeping teenage girls in sport is already really difficult due to to a number of factors.

This is absolutely true. It is even more true for anyone who when growing up didn’t confirm to norms… be that trans girls, non binary teens, or just boys or girls seen as unusual or unclear in how they presented. School PE and sports groups outside school can seem very hostile to many young people (even where those involved try very hard to make it otherwise). Outright bans at the highest levels increase this feeling of hostility.

Ultimately this remains an issue of the conflict between the ‘rights’ of a small number of people against the ‘rights’ of a larger number of people.

@rainper Apologies for the late reply, Someone ran a road race through the middle of my luggage transfer schedule today and we’ve had some fun trying to get bags from the coast that needed to cross or travle along the route!

My clumsy example was trying to point out that if the trans section of society had a protected characteristic as laid down in current law the language used by some “protecting their boundaries” would fall so far to the wrong side of acceptable that they would be facing hate speech charges. It is possible to debate the issue without being unpleasant and we should endeavour to maintain a polite and respectful discourse.

I don’t have a dog in this fight though my daughter identifies as queer and she is wholeheartedly behind the trans-equality movement as is my favoutite lgay folk singer (Grace Petrie). I lend support where I can but acknowledge that it is barely my problem due to white, male privilege but everyone should get a fair crack of the whip when it comes to human rights.

Would any of you allow Tyson fury (270 pounds) in the ring against the non male heavyweight champion of the world (179 pounds).

I fully support anyone’s right to identify as this or that but come on a little bit of common sense must prevail.

What I will say is that trans elite athletes are a tiny percentage of a small percentage of the population. However, EVERY trans/non-binary person I know has seen a huge increase in the amount of hate and intolerance since this has become “news”.

I agree and wonder if a blanket ban of Trans Women in women’s sport would be for the greater good.

That means posting a link to research.

Sharron Davies was pretty convinced of her case.

sargey
Full Member
Would any of you allow Tyson fury (270 pounds) in the ring against the non male heavyweight champion of the world (179 pounds).

Women should not be competing against men of the same weight let alone 100lbs heavier.

fwiw, and that’s not much, I absolutely love Hannah’s writing, what she has to say and the way she says.  I really don’t want to disagree with the article because of the ‘metal health’ statement at the top of it and because I wholeheartedly agree with almost every individual statement within it but I just can’t find myself coming to the same conclusion at the end.  It’s a balance of rights issue rather than something that is clearly one way or another and in this case we  have two conflicting sets of rights and not an obvious solution at the end.  I can’t really add to this debate better than many others have already written but do feel it is worth adding a voice to the balance

Would any of you allow Tyson fury (270 pounds) in the ring against the non male heavyweight champion of the world (179 pounds).

I fully support anyone’s right to identify as this or that but come on a little bit of common sense must prevail.

Isn’t that why weight classes exist? 🙄

Ultimately this remains an issue of the conflict between the ‘rights’ of a small number of people against the ‘rights’ of a larger number of people.

Holding the majority doesn’t mean they should prevail in all cases. In some cases the majority has to take the hit for the benefit of the minority.

To some it might be common sense but to others (and FWIW I agree with Hannah on this) common sense is that human rights and inclusivity trump competition. I know others don’t agree, and I know that ‘the science’ indicates that a transwoman has a competitive advantage (but to me there is more work to be done across a wider variety of circumstances and sports). But even if it does; that I’m afraid is the cost of inclusivity. No point debating or hauling me to task for it, it’s my opinion and we’ll have to agree to disagree. And I admit I am not an impartial view.

Sharron Davies was pretty convinced of her case.

I haven’t watched it but I’ve seen enough of her other output and she is a long way short of an evenhanded review, she most definitely has a position that she backs up. IMHO. I try to listen to all views but I also will call bias and bigotry where I see it.

Isn’t that why weight classes exist?

Boxing fan here. It’s a very interesting barometer for this debate.

You have men and women competing in weight classes so in theory it could be a fairly even playing field e.g. A 145lb male against a 145lb female.

The reality is despite weighing the same, at the professional level, the female boxers are getting beaten senseless against male boxers in the same weight class. Katie Taylor for example was the dominant female boxer in her weight class. Multiple world and olympic championships at amateur.

She’d get absolutely annihilated by a professional male boxer in her weight class. I love watching women’s boxing and MMA. The fights are competitive and the skill level is high, but they simply do not have the speed and power of their male counterparts in the same weight class

’m not getting into this debate again (or any other debate on here, for that matter) but I just want to say thanks for posting this and I’ll be a subscriber as long as STW is willing to take an unpopular stand for no other reason than it’s the right thing to do.

Just want to reiterate this, and also that the article is a very brave, open, and personal view on the matter.

I’m not sure the likes of Sharon Davies et al have really thought critically about the likely experience of an elite athlete that starts the transition process? Never mind the planning, your GP and so on, the therapy sessions etc, As soon as the athlete starts the hormone treatment it’s ripping up your contract and all the support structure that goes with it, trying to train whilst your body is changing rapidly , the time out of your window of peak years… then you’d have to start your competition life all over again with your new identity so no rankings or fast track. And you start competing and just get the likes of Sharon Davies making snide comments and stoking bad atmosphere

Go and find Pippa York’s interview with Matt Stephens on the Sigma Sport website where she explains how the testosterone levels went through the floor straight away and the putting on weight which is double jeopardy for an elite competitor. The idea that you can transition and somehow carry all the ‘male genetic benefits’ (which to call it that is divisive because women have muscle mass and testosterone too) is just not credible

Well done Hannah for presenting the argument so well

I know that ‘the science’ indicates that a transwoman has a competitive advantage (but to me there is more work to be done across a wider variety of circumstances and sports). But even if it does; that I’m afraid is the cost of inclusivity. No point debating or hauling me to task for it, it’s my opinion and we’ll have to agree to disagree. And I admit I am not an impartial view

Whilst I sympathise with your view and can see why you come from the perspective you do. If I may be blunt your opinion does come across as “if <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>my child’s’ not allowed to compete with an advantage over others, then no one should be allowed to compete”.
</span>
I’m<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”> not sure that would be a tolerable solution to many. </span><span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>
</span>

To be clear your child should absolutely be welcomed within society and non competitive sports should absolutely be warmly welcomed; mountain bike riding, hill walking, dinghy sailing, park run, rock climbing etc even non pointy end marathon running & triathlon where it’s more about challenging yourself.

The difficulty arises when there is a crossover to competitive sports and it would be unfair to have an uneven advantage over others or to deprive others of the opportunity of competing.

As demonstrated throughout this thread, it’s a very sensitive debate with no easy answer.

^ I think you have misunderstood something. His child is a trans man/boy,  so his motivation has nothing to do with the advantage his son has.

@edhornby – are you suggesting that it’s only OK for trans athletes to compete once they’ve undertaken some sort of chemical and surgical transition? What about those who identify as their non-birth gender but haven’t undergone that process – is it OK to exclude them?

The idea that you can transition and somehow carry all the ‘male genetic benefits’

…is obviously a stupid straw man that no-one could seriously put forward, so rather than derailing the discussion so transparently, how about adding to it intelligently?

One of the important questions is whether transitioning will *always* remove *all* of the male genetic benefits. Though it’s not necessarily the only question.

 ‘But even if it does; that I’m afraid is the cost of inclusivity.

that’s the crux of the argument really. Does inclusivity trump fairness? Imo no it doesn’t, as if competitive sport isn’t fair then it’s pointless. Whilst I appreciate why folks would disagree, I suspect 95% of the population would be firmly in the same camp of thinking as myself. And let’s face it, no sporting body is going to acknowledge that trans athletes have an advantage and still let them compete at any decent competitive level

Which leaves us with the question of do trans athletes really have an advantage? I think the answer is ‘probably’, but does that need to be proven before a ban is justified?

If I may be blunt your opinion does come across as “if my child’s’ not allowed to compete with an advantage over others, then no one should be allowed to compete”.

That’s not the intent at all. I believe they should be able to compete; if they have an advantage so be it (to reiterate I think jury is out still despite the weight currently being in favour of advantage) – that’s the price of the inclusivity. If they don’t have an advantage then so what (although there are still some that would exclude because of the fear that malintent men will do it to gain access to women’s spaces and look at their bottoms)

And as someone said, my son is no longer interested in sport, maybe because of his dislike of his body, maybe because he would struggle to participate, or maybe just ‘grew out of love’ with it. But FWIW he was very talented basketballer previously, but that is one area where his peer group are a foot taller than him now. Genetic advantages, anyone? How very unfair!!

Go and find Pippa York’s interview with Matt Stephens on the Sigma Sport website

100% agree, sadly I think no longer available which I *think* is because of the BTL commentary.

[edit – actually found a version but by an anti-trans org that has graffiti commented over the video. I hesitated to link it but have a look at the level of the scientific rebuttal]

I suspect 95% of the population would be firmly in the same camp of thinking as myself. And let’s face it, no sporting body is going to acknowledge that trans athletes have an advantage and still let them compete at any decent competitive level

And as I said before, I see that and I understand your argument but we can ping pong it back indefinitely. It’s an opinion, so even if 95% of people disagree with me (and Hannah) you won’t change it. To me inclusivity >> fairness.

I’m sorry, I’m sympathetic to the potentially displaced podiumer at any level, and understand why it’s not a popular opinion, but that’s the price.

Honestly, feel free to ping it back again but you won’t get a different answer, in fact you won’t get one at all. On this point, I’m out. I might offer more opinion on other matters but inclusion vs fairness is done and dusted for me.

I think in the big scheme of things too much of a shit is being given

+1

Is the 5% slump in cycling participation (as headlined elsewhere) due to all the trans cyclists giving up on cycling….. No, it’s not, because the number of trans cyclists doesn’t even come near to 5%.

It’s admirable that anyone is willing to hold the torch and fight the fight for a down trodden minority, but it’s such a small issue in the real world for 99.9% of the population.

I would also question a F>M trans person’s agenda if after all they’ve gone through they feel the need to quantify themselves against a group, in this case real (cis is such a shite term) women over which they have a distinct advantage.

To go back a page or two, male and female *are* basic biology. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and sex based categories (in both amateur and professional sport) allow females to enjoy fair competition.

Allowing males, however they have modified their bodies, to identify into female classes is not fair. The level of advantage (if any) retained by a trans athlete post any sort of transition is irrelevant – a woman is not a medically weakened man.

Transsexual inclusion in sport should not involve compelling females to open their spaces to a self selecting group of males.

 

@theotherjonv

I think you misunderstand me. im not trying to change your mind, I’m just stating the obvious obstacle that is in place. If you think inclusivity should trump fairness then I respect that, but ultimately you are in the minority. And in matters such as this a minority opinion isn’t going to carry much weight, rightly or wrongly.

Just because I don’t agree with your opinion doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s a valid one👍