Not In My Name: Trans Athlete Bans

I think the level of debate is quite good, just because you don’t agree with some posters it doesn’t mean the debate level is poor.

It’s not about not agreeing or not, it’s very specifically about the level of debate. I’ve been reading about this subject (academic journals included) for the past two years. I don’t get any sense that anyone else in this thread has anything to offer other than an opinion based on the kind of “science” that a certain TV doctor espouses. That’s fine, because everyone’s entitled to their opinion and so on, but it’s not even close to a good debate.

 

Surely the voices that matter in this discussion ate those of the athletes that trans people will be competing against.

That’s a great idea. Let’s extend it. We can ask Asian athletes (who tend to be shorter) if they’re OK competing against white athletes, and white athletes if they’re OK competing alongside Black athletes?

Who could possibly object to that?

 

STW is, in the main, full of middle aged and old blokes, a few women, but no elite men or women. Whilst we are all very much inclusive on this forum, there is a big issue about womens rights too – not just in sport.     General sport I don’t have an issue, but at elite level, a male that’s gone through puberty is alot more powerful than a woman.

I’d like to see more womens views about this as so far it’s just Hannah’s and again it’s a journalist’s view. How do the other women here feel ?

Bloody hell. I don’t know what to say about that.

<shrugs> I’d do it again. Giving a voice to underrepresented minorities is more important than losing a few readers, in terms of the future of the sport.

at elite level, a male that’s gone through puberty is alot more powerful than a woman.

Your source for this claim (which I’m assuming you’re making in the context of trans women, not men)?

Really Sebcranked, basic biology !

I’ll corect… STW, in the main, is full of middle aged/old grumpy old bastards that ride powered bikes ! FFS.

We need female views please, not us ‘lot’.

Really Sebcranked, basic biology

You just proved my point about the level of debate here. If you’re viewing all of this through the filter of some kind of GCSE-level understanding of biology, you’re starting from entirely the wrong place.

 

I never post on here but this is mega patronising. If you want an academic debate on the matter, don’t look for it on a mountain bike forum and then piss and moan that the level of debate is so low.

Given the demographic of this forum I’m proud of the amount of positivity in the comments.

OK sebcranked educate us eh – easy to say ‘who said’ etc.  Hard evidence please, just like you’ve asked us.

I’ve always thought of bicycley type people and competition as being an inclusive sort of thing

Unfortunately, very little about cycling in the UK is inclusive. At the “global” elite level, the huge majority of riders are white and most admins/execs at UCI are European.
https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-must-address-lack-diversity-bicycle-association-299793

It’s OK seb is after readers for his magazine !

You just proved my point about the level of debate here

Careful throwing those stones, a handful of posts ago you were straight in with the whataboutery

this is mega patronising. If you want an academic debate on the matter, don’t look for it on a mountain bike forum and then piss and moan that the level of debate is so low.

I’m not looking for an academic debate, just something above the level of “it’s basic biology” (it isn’t) and an acknowledgement that bioessentialist discrimination in sport has a dark and inglorious history, which we probably don’t want to go back to.

I’m sorry if it came across as patronising. I have trans friends. Their lives are, at the moment, pretty shit with the toxic “debate” that happens everywhere, by people who are ignorant about trans people but whose opinions, in the round, affect their lives. So I get cross about it. I’m not going to apologise for trying to look out for my friends (none of whom are elite cyclists, btw).

I’m out. Have fun debating the lives of people about whom you know almost nothing.

Careful throwing those stones, a handful of posts ago you were straight in with the whataboutery

The race thing? Completely valid. No-one has picked up on it. Wonder why?

That’s a great idea. Let’s extend it. We can ask Asian athletes (who tend to be shorter) if they’re OK competing against white athletes, and white athletes if they’re OK competing alongside Black athletes?

Who could possibly object to that?

And you’re the one complaining about the level of debate 🙄

Ok then @sebcranked

Rather than patronize us all, why not explain to us why you seem to have a view at odds with the UCI. I’m going to assume they probably took on board advice from actual real scientists on the matter afterall ..

Cycling as a sport isn’t a good example of multi-cultural sport at all – some cultures it is just a means of transport, and it’s also a sign of status – i.e. poor if you ride a bike not a car, so lets leave this out.

Give me top 100 times of  male and female 100 meter runners, there would be few if any female runners that got in that top 100 of all time.

Meet Seb. Seb left his job in 1996 to take photos of – and write about – riding bikes.

Come on sunshine !

Wonder why?

because it was irrelevant bollocks I’d imagine.

Feel free to start educating through your debating skills anytime. One good thing about this forum is the a great many of the members are always keep to learn

at elite level, a male that’s gone through puberty is alot more powerful than a woman.
Your source for this claim (which I’m assuming you’re making in the context of trans women, not men)?

Well since this is a mountain bike forum in theory at least, how about this years DH world champs?

Fastest woman, Vali Holl, is a solid unit, pretty powerful by any standard.

She’d have finished 67th out of 73 against the men on the same course on the same day, half a minute slower than Charlie Hatton.

There’s a female swimmer with a cock who recently did well in the US too, if you’re looking for the poster child for male vs female power after puberty.

Claiming these people aren’t allowed to exist if womens elite sport is protected  is a bit of a jump.

There’s a female swimmer with a cock

i see the grownups have joined the debate

you seem to have a view at odds with the UCI. I’m going to assume they probably took on board advice from actual real scientists on the matter afterall ..

You should check if that’s correct rather than just assuming it. Sport governing bodies can vary from good to terrible. I mean, Gianni Infantino is the head of the most powerful one…

I’m sorry if it came across as patronising. I have trans friends.

So there’s an assumption none of the rest of the STW middle age gammons opinions count because you have trans friends?

If we’re playing that game I was bought up in the horse world. Gay men and women where just part of the scene. I had many openly gay friends back in the late 70s and 80s. The riding school Friday night discos were legendary! Many a horse box was rocking by the end of the night.

An opinion on a sport issue doesn’t make you trans-phobic.

And the horse world is one of the few sports where everyone is on a level playing field – there are no classes for male or female.

Kate Weatherly’s RootsandRain, while I admit her story and journey, the results tell it all for me.

Alot of of STW middle aged gammons have, and do, work in a very ‘inclusive’ environment – I know I do, and my family has gay and trans folk in it. My nephew is incredibly brave, left one summer as a male teacher, then returned as female and has a trans partner.Very brave as was very ‘manly’.

All for inclusivity.

But there is something a little different at elite sport level, and we have to acknowledge that. We can’t shuffle this under the table.

I think if you asked women (not that you find many on here) that they would have a slightly different opinion about ‘levelling up’ in specific sports/etc. than us middle aged MAMILS, in, sorry to say this, realtively good jobs, money to splash on loads a bikes cars/trucks/ vans/ Alpes to ride a **** bike…etc etc.

We don’t need our (old blokes) opinions !

As it’s been mentioned a few times here, where’s the evidence that either supports, or doesn’t, trans athletes competing with cis athletes with no advantage?

I found this interesting:

With depressing predictability, the same arguments being made. I said I’m not getting involved, but the majority of posters are missing the main point of Hannah’s article. Please go back and read it properly and then maybe debate that?

And to the true bigots that have posted – while there’s still a vocal opposition you and your views are dying out and one day you’ll be history. Can’t come soon enough for me.

How about they can compete but not officially have results recorded?

They get all the thrill of training ,competing and the satisfaction of knowing they won but without upsetting anyone.

There is no correct answer but this seems to cause the least harm.

<span style=”caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”>How about they can compete but not officially have results recorded
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how would that work in a game of tennis? Or football? Even in cycling it could majorly influence the outcome of the race?

Unfortunately there is no easy way to determine if an athlete has gained an unfair advantage through transitioning, and some may not have any advantage at all. Ideally you’d be able to say ‘you clearly have a bigger heart and lungs than the average female competitor so sorry but you can’t compete’ but that’s not really practical

Unfortunately there is no easy way to determine if an athlete has gained an unfair advantage through transitioning, and some may not have any advantage at all. Ideally you’d be able to say ‘you clearly have a bigger heart and lungs than the average female competitor so sorry but you can’t compete’ but that’s not really practical

As I posted above, Anton Weatherlly was a mid pack + rider. at National DH level in NZ, Kate Weatherly 2 years later podiumed Elite women’s DH World Cup and scored a succession of top 10’s at the same level.

I’ve been reading about this subject (academic journals included) for the past two year

Well, if that was correct, then you should also know that trans-woman are not being banned from sport (at least cycling). They are free to compete in the male category (or any open category if a race organizer has such a category).

And such restrictions only apply at the upper echelons of the sport so at grass-roots level, they are free to complete against females (at the behest of the organizer).

If we all spoke one of the many languages that have three genders (for people, I mean, not grammatical genders) then this debate would be completely different. A lot of this is down to the fact that there are only two words ‘man’ and ‘woman’ which is what causes all the arguing about which one you want people to call you.

I support sporting categories that exclude.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of ability, so that disabled athletes can be included in sport.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of age, so that youth and senior athletes can be included in sport.

I support categories that exclude on the basis of sex, so that women can be included in sport.

Everyone here supports exclusion too. It’s simply a debate about whether the women’s category should exclude on the basis of sex or on the basis of gender identity.

Sex matters in sports, folks. That’s why we have women’s categories.

As it’s been mentioned a few times here, where’s the evidence that either supports, or doesn’t, trans athletes competing with cis athletes with no advantage?

I think we are in a stormy early phase with this, and until there is a reasonable amount of proper scientific data to come to an informed decision, its largely perceptions. How long it will take to get a dataset big enough to be accurate is another barrier.

Similar debates have been in women’s sport for much of my 50 years, I remember an Eastern European middle distance runner, and Caster Semenya more recently, being considered too butch to compete in women’s events.

In the meantime, let’s be inclusive. I’m not seeing trans women filling podiums, no one goes through that process justbfor sporting glory.

<span style=”caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%;”>As I posted above, Anton Weatherlly was a mid pack + rider. at National DH level in NZ, Kate Weatherly 2 years later podiumed Elite women’s DH World Cup and scored a succession of top 10’s at the same level.
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im not for one minute disputing the fact that many trans athletes could have an advantage that doesn’t go away after transitioning, bigger heart, lung capacity, reach, stride length etc etc (although in the case stated it could equally be that the female talent pool is just far smaller so genetic advantage may not be as much of a factor)

however I’m not sure ALL trans females would have a physiological advantage over other females. Ie I’m pretty sure a 6 foot plus college level male athlete who transitioned would retain far greater advantages than a five and a half foot 8 stone bloke, with no remarkably physiological advantages in the first place, who did the same.

It would of course very much depend on what sport they are partaking in as well..

So it seems that single-track don’t really support free speech  and they have lost another subscriber

So it seems that single-track don’t really support free speech  and they have lost another subscriber

They do but Free speech doesn’t cover private platforms and it also does not mean you won’t face consequences. We certainly take action on terms that are defined as a hate crime.

Well the discourse seems to have gone exactly as well as could be expected. 🙄