Not all programmers are on here: ISIS content.

If an individual wants to join a millennial end of days cult – and believes that there will be a final battle in Syria against the armies of Rome (I kid you not) – where 5000 Isis followers will be saved by the second coming of Christ and lead into heaven, or whatever……… I’m not sure a ‘really powerful narrative’ is going to cut it against this kind of bonkers thinking!!!

@futon, I doubt ISIS think they are going to be saved by Christ ! That link was posted yesterday FYI

here needs to be an equally powerful counter narrative.

We live in an open democracy. Both of those things are counter to strict followers of Islam. So a powerful defense of those ideals actually widens the gulf between “them and us”. Also our open society means we welcome criticism of government policy so the media is full of people criticising our foreign policy which is latched onto by the radicals.

The argument that UK foreign policy has radicalised these people is nonsense, ISIS is killing far more Muslims than any Western military intervention ever did. Also we see Jihadists radicalised from countries like Denmark, Sweden and Belgium. Countries with no real involvement int he Middle East.

The back story on Emza is ineresting, with co-operation from Tanzania and Kuwait he was prevented from entering Somalia and Iraq. I wonder whether MI5 got the same help from Turkey ?

@ernie, I for one have been very worried about what has been happening in Syria for 4 years. I was in favour of airstrikes on Assad to prevent the slaughter of civilians in Aleppo, there is a large Palestinain refugee community there who were being barrel bombed along with the Syrians. Then you have the use of chemical weapons. The fact is the UK parliament voted against intervention. Western people (and to an extent their governments) where weary after Afghanistan and Iraq and tried to step back, ISIS knew this and moved into the vacuum choosing to focus their attacks on the Free Syrian Army rather than Assad’s troops. When the slaughter of other Muslims was extended into Iraq and they threatened Bhagdad the populations of the West realised action must be taken. So the politicians had the popular support they needed.

futon river crossing – Member

If an individual wants to join a millennial end of days cult – and believes that there will be a final battle in Syria against the armies of Rome (I kid you not) – where 5000 Isis followers will be saved by the second coming of Christ and lead into heaven, or whatever……… I’m not sure a ‘really powerful narrative’ is going to cut it against this kind of bonkers thinking!!!

Well here’s the thing. Lets assume he’s as intelligent as you or I. Do you think he believes that, or is that a justification for what he’s doing… It seems fairly obvious that he wanted to join Al-Shabaab first, who are essentially a self styled sharia court who fought against a secular government in Somalia, they are not a death cult. So it seems the more far out beliefs of IS are not what drew him, rather the desire to join a militia, fight and kill. Seemingly regardless of where in the world that would be.

The argument that UK foreign policy has radicalised these people is nonsense, ISIS is killing far more Muslims than any Western military intervention ever did. Also we see Jihadists radicalised from countries like Denmark, Sweden and Belgium. Countries with no real involvement int he Middle East.

C’mon, don’t make me go all jivehoneyjive here. UK and US foreign policy created these guys. And western intervention has killed many times the number of muslims IS have.

First part I agree @jimjam although he wanted to go to Kuwait/Iraq also (pre IS so probably Al-Q)

And western intervention has killed many times the number of muslims IS have.

I don’t agree. The vast majority of deaths in Iraq have been due to sectarian violence Sunni v Shia in suicide bombings etc. You may argue that the West created the instability by deposing Sadam but the population could have chosen another path. If the Iraqi army had stood it’s ground IS would not have made the gains they did. The 200,000 deaths in Syria are Muslim on Muslim with no intervention from the West, the main foreign agent there is Russia. There would have been far less deaths in Syria if the West had intervened sooner.

don’t agree. The vast majority of deaths in Iraq have been due to sectarian violence Sunni v Shia in suicide bombings etc. You may argue that the West created the instability by deposing Sadam but the population could have chosen another path. If the Iraqi army had stood it’s ground IS would not have made the gains they did.

Will we just agree to disagree?, because that’s a never ending chicken and egg argument going back to ww2 (at least).

Imagine if there was some way to keep the lid on all this crap in Iraq, with ISIS being put back in their dungeons, maybe we’d be happy to support someone who could bring that off. Someone like … Saddam Hussein?

DrJ – Member

Imagine if there was some way to keep the lid on all this crap in Iraq, with ISIS being put back in their dungeons, maybe we’d be happy to support someone who could bring that off. Someone like … Saddam Hussein?

Well, he’s dead. So you’d need to travel back in time and arm him to the teeth with billions of pounds worth of western weapons and just hope that he wouldn’t do anything silly.

I actually CBA getting involved as he is always 100% right but the numbers dont add up to support the view that the west is not worse than ISIS

If I read this right, you’re saying that “the west” is at least equal to, or worse than, ISIS in it’s level of debased violence?

Reckon Junky has a point:

Whether it’s birth defects linked to Depleted Uranium used by allied forces in Iraq:

(warning, very disturbing image, hence linked not posted)

Or the wars following 9/11 (not forgetting Al-Qaeda wouldn’t exist in it’s current form if not for Operation Cyclone):

JY, selective quoting there, you well know that I said “in this instance”. Middle East is far far more complex than our other discussions. Much more subjective.

The West did not want to / be seen to be supporting Assad by attacking his enemies which conflicted them for some time and you had Russia openly supporting Assad.

@Mr Whoppit, that’s certainly the view of Cage/Qureshi as per the interviews and there are those here that seem sympathetic to that line of argument.

Big row in France after 4 MPs met with Assad (yesterday ?), mixture of left and right. Story on Vice News.

Finally if anyone is interested here is the interview with Cage where Sky News reporter tells him to get over himself and he stomps off. The CAGE guy was subject to a Terrorist Control Order when we had those. BTW anyone who calls an idiotic Yes campaigner a knob is worth watching 😉

The world order eh?
In the process of trying to look like they’re doing some good (but actually just trying to **** Iran and Russia over), they nurture a monster which immediately turns on them, partially resulting from other opportunities to rearrange the world order, where they nurtured a monster………
The shocking thing is nobody ever seems to learn! Same mistakes over and over and it makes even me believe that there may be some credence to JHJ’s conspiracy theories as nobody can be that stupid right? right?
TJ was right on this one, the west should have kept it’s nose firmly out.

TJ was right on this one, the west should have kept it’s nose firmly out.

Until Iraq and Iran really did have chemical and nuclear weapons deployed by long range missiles like North Korea ?

If you read “Against all Enemies” Sadam’s card was marked as following the Kuwaiti invasion and war he tried to blow up Bush senior. That was only ever going to end badly for him.

I think Kay Burley lost on that interview – summed up by her stupid grin when he walked off.

Until Iraq and Iran really did have chemical and nuclear weapons deployed by long range missiles like North Korea ?

And what would arming nutbags in Syria have done to stop that? I don’t think AQ or ISIS have a squadron of chemical or biological scientists.

JY from memory we have had 250,000 deaths in Iraq and 200,000 in Syria. The vast majority of both of those are from sectarian violence and Assad vs FSA/ISIS. Muslim on Muslim being my point rather than West vs Muslim.

No doubt at all that in Syria the number of people killed by Western Airstrikes is a tiny fraction of the 200,000 deaths.

ISIS has captured around 250-350 Christians from Assyrian villages and recently paraded captured Kurdish fighters in cages. I fear we will soon see a death video featuring these people, its being reported that there will be a mass killing after Friday prayers.

I think Kay Burley lost on that interview – summed up by her stupid grin when he walked off.

Really ? Even John Snow lost patience with CAGE.

summed up by her stupid grin

I rather enjoyed that bit.

Those stats: I’m inclined to ask for the source, rather than just assume they’re correct. It IS being posted by the Usual Numpty.

Really ? Even John Snow lost patience with CAGE.

yes, he gave pretty clear answers to the questions but she just kept banging on at him asking the same questions – not impressed with her attempts at being a heavyweight but failing.

plus his statement “So your question is inherently Islamophobic and racist.”

was true.

iraqbodycount.org, Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, UN, various news services ….

jambalaya

Until Iraq and Iran really did have chemical and nuclear weapons deployed by long range missiles like North Korea ?

They (Iraq) really did have chemical weapons. West Germany sold them the chemicals. The CIA helped them to develop the weapons, and CIA advisers told them exactly where in Iran to drop them.

That’s in addition to the $1billion in aid given by Reagan/Rumsfeld in the form attack helicopters and tanks, and $25billion in weapons the French sold Saddam.

Turner – I think we’ll have to disagree about clear answers then, very evasive and just general statements in my book.

I appreciate that jimjam, you can use Chemicals for different things – fertilizer for example makes truck bombs. The point was mostly intended to be about the nuclear side and the long range rockets.

They (Iraq) really did have chemical weapons. West Germany sold them the chemicals. The CIA helped them to develop the weapons, and CIA advisers told them exactly where in Iran to drop them.

That being the case, is a statement like this entirely correct?

Muslim on Muslim being my point rather than West vs Muslim.

jivehoneyjive

That being the case, is a statement like this entirely correct?

Muslim on Muslim being my point rather than West vs Muslim.
[/quote]

More shades of grey than a warehouse full of smutty books.

So just looking up iraqbodycount (IBC) article (and remember this is an anti-war website)

During the UK action in Iraq (period 2003-2011) the website accounted for 350 civilians killed as a result of British action. This is over a period of some 150,000 casualties. Just look at the last couple of days, air strike deaths at 10%-20% of the total number of casualties and most of those (IMO) are ISIS/AlQ combatants.

IBC link[/url]

ambalaya

So just looking up iraqbodycount (IBC) article (and remember this is an anti-war website)

During the UK action in Iraq (period 2003-2011) the website accounted for 350 civilians killed as a result of British action.

I’m afraid you can’t (or you shouldn’t) separate out a specific figure for people killed as a direct result of UK action separate from that of the US, or indeed militants who flooded into the country to do battle with them.

Bush an Blair went to war based on lies. Blatant lies. Five months after they had destroyed the country’s government and military structures Abu musab al Zarqawi’s group appear in Iraq and start attacking western troops and Shiite civilian groups.

so i read the first page, im also part way through reading Clovers link, all very interesting.

then on P2. JHJ starts. I have no interest in reading about religipeadoroyalalienconspiracybolleax

If there is any content between p2 and here that i am missing out on, please print it and send it to me.

another thread ruined. *slow hand clap*

Some interesting things in a Guardian piece. Not least how people are renouncing foreign citizenship to stop their British passports being taken away. Seems MI5 where 100% right (JY 😉 ) to be closely monitoring the group Emwazi was associating with.

In January 2012, Berjawi was killed in a US drone strike in Somalia. A few hours earlier, his wife had given birth to a child at St Mary’s hospital in west London, prompting suspicions among his associates that his location had been pinpointed as a result of a telephone conversation between the couple.

The following month, Mohamed Sakr, who had been Berjawi’s next-door neighbour when they were growing up in London, was also killed in a drone strike in Somalia. Although born in Britain, Sakr’s parents were Egyptian, and the UK authorities regarded him as a dual national. Like Berjawi, he had been stripped of his British citizenship shortly before the US drone strike. His parents promptly flew to Cairo and formally renounced their Egyptian citizenship, to prevent their two other sons from being deprived of their British status.

link

I have no interest in reading about religipeadoroyalalienconspiracybolleax

Glad to hear it, you should give documented history a try…

@jj here’s a photo for you. Our friends from CAGE with John Rees from Stop the War Coalition who arranged the pro Gaza rallies in London last year. I suppose we know who he’s in coalition with now.

This is the key paragraph:

Despite this surveillance, local police in west London suspect that he engaged in a series of petty crimes. In 2010, he was charged with possession of a number of stolen expensive bicycles. One of the charges alleged that he “acquired criminal property, namely a Cannondale Bad Boy bicycle”.

^^^^ hes got a beard, stone him!

ambalaya – Member

@jj here’s a photo for you.

Quereshi just went into the realms of fantasy with his defence of Emwazi. If he had even tried to temper his viewpoint considering the guy has been identified as sawing off people’s heads he might have been slightly credible. But he didn’t, and I think he’s sunk any, even the merest hint, that MI5 may have contributed to his radicalisation.

One of the charges alleged that he “acquired criminal property, namely a Cannondale Bad Boy bicycle”.

He’s probably upgraded to a Cannondale Homicidal Maniac by now.

Among the 17,049 civilians recorded killed, many deaths were attributable to the actions of specific armed groups while the perpetrators of many killings remain unknown. 1,748 civilians were reported killed by Iraqi military air strikes, while 4,325 were killed by ISIS. A further 10,858 civilians were reported killed by unidentified actors, where it has not been possible to establish which of the major actors, or possibly other, less well-identified groups, were involved. 118 civilians were reported killed by US-Coalition air strikes, the first time since 2011 that civilian deaths have been directly attributable to US-Coalition actions.

17,049 civilian casualties in Iraq in 2014. 118 of them as a result of US air strikes the first such deaths since 2011. Source: iraqbodycount.org

Would that be “documented history” by any chance? 😆 😆 😆

Seems quite well researched, but certainly some questions need answering:

A further 10,858 civilians were reported killed by unidentified actors, where it has not been possible to establish which of the major actors, or possibly other, less well-identified groups, were involved

I’d also appreciate a bit more background to this:

They (Iraq) really did have chemical weapons. West Germany sold them the chemicals. The CIA helped them to develop the weapons, and CIA advisers told them exactly where in Iran to drop them.

Careful now Whoppit as he follows that up with true facts

I think we may have found a replacement for Fred, possibly with a similar affliction, poor chap.

Edit: correction