[Closed] No more British Enduro Series?

Just saw this. Was going to book Dyfi this week. Gutted. That's a big loss for enduro in the UK.

The health of the organisers come first though.

I did wonder why entries were so much lower when compared to Ard Rock etc which sell out in minutes?

Not a task I would like to undergo. A lot of work.

I am surprised at low entry numbers though as when ever I look up events they seem to be fully booked. Maybe this is because I am down south and fighting over places in the events down here.

Is this the one that some were saying marketed itself as 'Premium/Elite' and was not really supportive of newer riders?

Thats a shame, Ard rock sells out fast as its a great event with lots to offer over a weekend.

I've always thought the cost of entry for a BES race was too high £75?

Another bonus of Brexit, not

Big shame but several issues

price was relatively high but not terrible for a 2 day event and the courses were generally tougher than most others series, lots of factors but there is some really good competition out there and doing the whole series was very expensive when you included fuel etc
Thats the point of a national series though, I suppose

So when is Parr coming back?

That's such a shame! It seems strange to me that the 'national' series seem to struggle so much when more local series such as the PMBA seem to do so well. I guess the need to travel so far over a year and as above the lack of support for newer/less serious riders leads to their downfall.

In my opinion, the best solution would be for two or more of the smaller series to team up to offer a national series. We could just have a national body (BEMBA?) which cherry picks existing races to make up a national series. Similar to what the EWS are doing with their events.

[quote=kiksy ]

That's a big loss for enduro in the UK.

There's a thriving Scottish Series. It averaged 282 riders per round last year.

The BES only pulled in 175 entrants per round last year. Not great for a flagship UK wide series. Too expensive? Too complicated? Who knows.

That's a bloody shame for all concerned 🙁 All credit to them for refunding in full, some organisers retain booking fees etc.

I suppose the competing series ended up having no winners but I'm still surprised numbers were so low- the SES drew 250+ riders to every event last year I think, despite some pain-in-the-arse locations- if you can get 250 people to Glenlivet then you ought to be able to get 250 people [i]anywhere[/i].

not surprised on the low numbers for the afan event - I expect not many people are happy paying 75 quid to ride trail centre trails (apart from the hillbilly stage) - that they can ride for free all year.

I think the events like ard rock /moors are more appealing to the average rider as its a chance to ride places that you cant ride normally (on private ground) people are more willing to pay and travel to these ones.

That's a shame, I've no personal interest in racing, but I like to know it's there.

Perhaps it's me - but reading between the lines the major factors seem to be that it couldn't attract enough people willing to race, nor enough corporate sponsorship to make it pay. BES failing should have been the making of them. Why did BES fail?

On the flip-side I noticed that the BDS has attracted HSBC as title sponsor for 8 years - that must have been a hell of a coup for them, it's fairly rare these days for a non-bike company to sponsor a Mountain Bike, well anything, such a big company like HSBC signing on for such a long time.

[i]not surprised on the low numbers for the afan event - I expect not many people are happy paying 75 quid to ride trail centre trails (apart from the hillbilly stage) - that they can ride for free all year. [/I]

But that still doesn't equate to the Scottish experience as we can ride anywhere, anytime (nothing private up here).

if you can get 250 people to Glenlivet then you ought to be able to get 250 people anywhere.

Indeed.
Glenlivet is a pain to get to even from somewhere relatively close like Fife.

Bit sad that sponsors have pulled out at this stage - assuming this is indeed the problem i'd like to see some naming and shaming so I/We know which brands to avoid. Not that i'm saying brands should be obliged to sponsor events, but once you've put your hand up, it should stay up.

Competition is the problem, back when ukge was pulling in 300, 350 entrants a round there wasnt much else on

now there are series up and down the UK catering to all levels

madenduro
enduro1
pedalhounds
ses
southern
pmba
aard
wges
wes
mini

+ others im sure

to be really good a national series needs support and input from a national federation BC or BEMBA
and/or a dedicated team prepping the best venues
trail centres can offer a great base but really the content needs to be fresh
the Dyfi rounds offered some of the best riding Ive done this side of the channel, but the old ukge team put a lot of man hours in to build/prep some of the stages

On the flip-side I noticed that the BDS has attracted HSBC as title sponsor for 8 years - that must have been a hell of a coup for them, it's fairly rare these days for a non-bike company to sponsor a Mountain Bike, well anything, such a big company like HSBC signing on for such a long time.

Si runs BES and BDS and I believe that the HSBC deal was negotiated via British Cycling, who dont do enduro

Bit sad that sponsors have pulled out at this stage - assuming this is indeed the problem i'd like to see some naming and shaming so I/We know which brands to avoid. Not that i'm saying brands should be obliged to sponsor events, but once you've put your hand up, it should stay up.

A lot off crap gets spoken by anybody with a 140mm+ machine.....

"Yeah I'll be at such-and-such round"

.....come the day they're nowhere to be seen.

I'll get flack for this but here goes, with all and sundry owning an Enduro gnarpoon these days they've just become another bike....ride it, race it, don't, who cares?

A few years ago when people spent thousands on trail bikes AND a downhill bike they perhaps felt the need to justify said purchase and raced the DH bike, albeit at a local level. That impetus to get out there and race/justify your 3k Giant Glory has gone.
It also doesn't help the numerous comments on here when an Enduro event is coming up and people say "I'm not paying to ride trails I can ride for free the following weekend".....it saps the enthusiasm from the sport.

Anyway, I liked the idea from one poster about having a northern organizer, a Midlands/wales organisation and a southern organiser....if people want to do the full series they can and be in the running for overall honors or ifc people just want to race on their doorstep they can and we could have regional champions. Something for Parr, Patton etc to think about.

deviant - Member

I'll get flack for this but here goes, with all and sundry owning an Enduro gnarpoon these days they've just become another bike....ride it, race it, don't, who cares?

Don't think you'll get flak but this is half the point of enduro. Pretty sure any benefit from a small number of people with DH bikes feeling the need to earn it, is less than the benefit from accessibility. (yes I know you can race DH on anything)

Definitely agree on "you can ride that any weekend" though- that just misses the point of racing really. You can ride most road courses any weekend for free but that's not the same either. If you're not into racing then fine but it's not helpful to have that be a standard response.

It also doesn't help the numerous comments on here when an Enduro event is coming up and people say "I'm not paying to ride trails I can ride for free the following weekend".....it saps the enthusiasm from the sport.

For most people its just riding a bike, not a sport, so competing is not really of interest. Ive tried racing in the past, whole weekend under pressure to do this bit then that one then rush to the next section. All I want to do is ride my bike man! 😆

A few years ago when people spent thousands on trail bikes AND a downhill bike they perhaps felt the need to justify said purchase and raced the DH bike, albeit at a local level. That impetus to get out there and race/justify your 3k Giant Glory has gone.

HSBC are the new BC sponsors taking over from Sky hence the BDS deal.

As someone who has been involved with organising or marshalling at most cycling related events, the thought of trying to pull together a multistage Enduro sounds like a nightmare.

"It also doesn't help the numerous comments on here when an Enduro event is coming up and people say "I'm not paying to ride trails I can ride for free the following weekend".....it saps the enthusiasm from the sport"

of course you can go and ride any trails you like if the following weekend if you really wanted to....

The point I am making is specifically about the afan event the stages have remained exactly the same for the past few years and to keep things fresh I think one or 2 stages needed to change at some point. Whether that's logistically possible is not for me to say. As a local I know theres other amazing trails close by but whether an public event could be staged those - (probably not!)

Also I know the dyfi area pretty well and could go and ride those stages for free at anytime - but as kimbers said

"the old ukge team put a lot of man hours in to build/prep some of the stages"

which made me much more inclined to drop £75 on it than the afan event

I was pretty determined to enter a complete series this year but....

The BES was just too spread out, the overall cost of competing made it prohibitive.

On a similar note, some of the other series have rounds that simply don't inspire and as such make the journey/cost prohibitive.

My 'local' series would be the Southern Enduro Series but I like events to take me to terrain and riding that is different and pushes my boundaries, great events with a good vibe though... so a maybe for a couple of rounds.

I guess you could say I am looking for the moon on a stick but both my time and money are limited and important to me, I have to be picky.

That said I will doff my Enduro lid to anyone and everyone that puts on events, in all disciplines, a tough job but you and your events are very much appreciated.

not surprised on the low numbers for the afan event - I expect not many people are happy paying 75 quid to ride trail centre trails (apart from the hillbilly stage) - that they can ride for free all year.

strawdog - Member

"the old ukge team put a lot of man hours in to build/prep some of the stages"

TBH local experience was that they talked a good talk and posted pics of them throwing a shovel of hardcore in some mud but they didn't really do anything. Any actual building was done by the same locals as usual.

mikewsmith - Member
Muppets like that will never be at a race

TBH local experience was that they talked a good talk and posted pics of them throwing a shovel of hardcore in some mud but they didn't really do anything. Any actual building was done by the same locals as usual.

May have been the case at the inners round but I know that's not what happened at grizedale or dyfi out even afan

The BES was just too spread out, the overall cost of competing made it prohibitive.

.......

My 'local' series would be the Southern Enduro Series but I like events to take me to terrain and riding that is different

I was going to enter the tour de France next year till I realised that I could just ride around France. Muppets like that will never be at a race, you can ride any dh course any day of the week if you want.

It's true to an extent though.

Motorsport - you can do track days, but otherwise it's restricted to racing if you want to go fast on a track.

Dinghy Sailing - (not including cruising). Participation is far far higher at a local/club racing level and above, and it's probably lower at the 'bimbling' level, because almost everyone at a club races. But that's because to participate you need to join a club with access to water, and clubs race.

Mountain biking - I can turn up, and for absolutely no cost ride a lap of a trail, and get a result on STRAVA. It's 90% of the Enduro racing experience, for zero cost. I can turn up to the local 'fast' XC club and get 50% of the XC racing experience, etc etc (which is probably why XC racing isn't doing so badly).

Enduro racing has the best and worst starting point of those three examples, it's "just racing your mates on normal technical trails, on normal bikes", so a huge number of potential entrants, but what's making them pay £75 for 2 days which they could get for £5 in a pay and display machine.

It's the race bit your missing even with Strava, if you don't get it you probably won't.
I'd probably go with saturation of a newish market, travel for a national series at the moment along with loss of sponsorship as the key issues. Always looks like plenty are racing but not all in the same place at the same time.
BDS gives you something more if your pushing on. Ews qualifications events are wide spread now so what's going to make you commit to a national series? It's a sport still finding its feet.

Disappointed by the news also. Had signed up to Rnd 1 and had full intention of doing the full series, just couldn't afford to drop cash on it all up front, so was going to sign up to a race each pay day.

Was going to be a hell of a lot of travelling for me from the southwest but was up for it. Southern Enduro Series is the closest now but it's still a lot of travelling for only a one-day race. From my perspective, a south Wales/Southwest series is needed...maybe Charlie Williams and the Cornish Trail Pixies can team up next year!

clockarockin - Member

In my opinion, the best solution would be for two or more of the smaller series to team up to offer a national series. We could just have a national body (BEMBA?) which cherry picks existing races to make up a national series. Similar to what the EWS are doing with their events.

I think this is the only way we'll get a 'National Series' now. UKES and BES both failed and I don't see how Steve Parr can resurrect UKGE and make it any more successful. As Kimbers says, it's a saturated market now.

I was going to enter the tour de France next year till I realised that I could just ride around France. Muppets like that will never be at a race, you can ride any dh course any day of the week if you want

sorry mate but when you mentioned tdf I switched off..

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Mountain biking - I can turn up, and for absolutely no cost ride a lap of a trail, and get a result on STRAVA. It's 90% of the Enduro racing experience, for zero cost.

IMO that's about 2% of the racing experience.

Scotroutes... I take your point, hence why I have a Tweedlove event, a PMBA event, a WES event or two and a couple of Southern events lined up plus I had the BES Dyfi round lined up.

I enjoy the events a great deal, I actually don't really enjoy racing a great deal and for me supporting events and organisers is important.

Mountain biking and biking in general is my passion, when I travel to pursue it I make a point of using a spread of local businesses too, I try to give back as well as take from the sport.

Just because someone doesn't race doesn't make them a muppet... that said I am not a huge fan of dissing something just because it is not for you. It is up to each individual to work out whether entering an event offers them enough to justify the decision, actually racing/riding is only part of what an event has to offer.

TBH local experience was that they talked a good talk and posted pics of them throwing a shovel of hardcore in some mud but they didn't really do anything. Any actual building was done by the same locals as usual.
May have been the case at the inners round but I know that's not what happened at grizedale or dyfi out even afan

It's a sport still finding its feet.

It's not a sport but a discipline. As it moves every more professional and hence, closer to DH I think Enduro will struggle, with the exception of a few well established events.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

I can turn up, and for absolutely no cost ride a lap of a trail, and get a result on STRAVA. It's 90% of the Enduro racing experience, for zero cost.

Honest question – have you ever competed in an Enduro event?

I’d argue the difference is massive – sit on the start line waiting for the beeps of the timing device, Marshall next to you giving you a countdown, riders all waiting behind you as you blast off, a course with taping and signs, the effort and adrenaline of giving the best you’ve got and having it all laid bare with accurate results broken down by class, age group etc. as soon as you’ve got to the bottom – your performance measured on that run, on that day, over that exact same stage in exactly the same conditions as everyone else.

Riding with mates isn’t even close to 90% of the experience – and that’s before you factor in the atmosphere and anticipation that starts from sign on and all the crack and banter you get over the course of the event from other competitors who aren’t your mates.

It’s a very individual thing as to whether that’s all worth £75, but to be clear that’s what you’re paying for – the trails you’ll race over are not part of the cost – it’s all the organisation, timing, course marking, medical support etc. that go into organising and running a competitive race event.

IMO that's about 2% of the racing experience.

Compared to a bunch race like XC maybe, but Enduro.

Strava) Turn up, ride against a clock.
Enduro) Pay £75, turn up, ride against the clock.

Yes there's differences (weather, time of year, accuracy, yadda yadda). But fundamentally it's the same principal, a time trial.

It's the race bit your missing even with Strava, if you don't get it you probably won't.

I race (sailing), most weekends, and quite happily pay £20-70 a weekend to race open meetings, national champs, etc in addition to club level racing.

I get the difference between a race and just going out for a blast, it's a whole different game with added internal and external pressure. But IMO (and judging by the thread topic other too) Enduro is far closer to normal and more accessible riding than any other form of racing.

Enduro racing is undoubtedly good fun, 1000's of people do it informally just riding with mates or with Strava every weekend, but the number of people prepared to pay for doing it is obviously very small.

my point was - as a rider who [b]HAS[/b] raced afan and some of the other series before One of the [b]KEY[/b] factors that keep me interested (happy to pay for) and coming back to the same location to race. Is riding on different stages or fresh trails.

I know some locals I talk to feel the same way and maybe that's one of contributing factors in the dropoff in numbers specifically @ afan event where the stages haven't changed a lot in any of the series that have been run over it.

closer to DH I think Enduro will struggle

That's a good point IMHO. DH events from grass roots to the top seem to be thriving.

If the timed enduro stages are open for practice for a day or two before the race, is it a different enough sport to stand alone? I remember the Enduro1 events where there was no practice, had to ride the stages as you saw them, def a different type of skill to a DH.

If enduro is, in reality, 5 DH races at once, but the entry fees/numbers aren't 5x as high, then somethings got to give.

As prob stated above (not fully read the posts),
Hard one to call, but I do feel it might of been a bit to early to Cancel and a real lack of communication on their part, I feel a if they sent a "don't have XX amount of entries by xx date" (early Feb) it might of been OK. we just had christmas/new year etc people are bit on the skint side and waiting for payday at the end of the mth.

But then it's not me, with a lot on the line to lose if numbers didn't go up!
So I say thanks Si, and best of luck in the future.

The reason I don't race is it's just too expensive.

I used to race canoes regionally, nationally and very occasionally internationally and it didn't cost anywhere near as much. Admittedly the course marking is much lower and as it was normally club based all of the marshalls were normally members/volunteers but I've just had a look how much it costs now and it's £9 for a regional race a tenner for the Big finale.

I wouldn't want to pay any more than about that for a DH race like the ones at Cannock maybe double for an enduro because of the need for multiple stages, XC maybe up to £15.

But you can't really compare it, the lack of MTB clubs means the well of volunteers is dry, it's a shame really.

I remember the Enduro1 events where there was no practice, had to ride the stages as you saw them, def a different type of skill to a DH.

My first enduro race was an Enduro1 one. Still by far the best enduro I've done. Timed transitions (with fun descents!), no practice, a full day out on the bike rather than the multi-stage DH which other events seem to favour.

Strava Turn up, ride against a clock.
Enduro Pay £75, turn up, ride against the clock.

That's your opinion, and fair enough. But my opinion is they are nothing like the same experience. If Enduro racing costs ~£50 day to organise, so be it, I think its worth it. The main issue I have is travel time makes a weekend event into a 4 day affair quite often.

The reason I don't race is it's just too expensive.

The BES guys did post a detailed breakdown of costs per event on their Facebook page, think it was something like £25k for a weekend.

That's a good point IMHO. DH events from grass roots to the top seem to be thriving.

Where?

The only race series that consistently thrives is Pearce.

Grass roots races are fairly consistent with entries and always available on the day, than national DH series (BDS) hasn't sold out for literally years. In fact it went from being quite hard to get points to enter in some categories, to let anyone with a race licence enter, including on the day.

DH has stagnated for years, from someone who still races it.

But you can't really compare it, the lack of MTB clubs means the well of volunteers is dry, it's a shame really.

That's probably the crux of it. Sailing is undeniably a rich mans sport, yet can put on a weekends open racing for £30 because clubs support it. Imagine how quiet Swinley, GT, Inners, Cannock or Afan would be if you had to actually turn up to a minimum number of dig days before being allowed to ride? I'll be racing 2 races this weekend for a grand total of £6, including start boats, rescue RIBs and crew, race committee, maintenance of the club buildings and grounds, hot showers, etc etc. MTB just doesn't have the same volunteer led club structure.

*although an entry level boat and club membership is still less than a lot of Gym memberships. It's still not a £400 MTB level of cheap.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Strava) Turn up, ride against a clock.
Enduro) Pay £75, turn up, ride against [s]the clock.[/s] other people on the same day with other people with accurate timing, safety marshalls and no cheating

Where?

The only race series that consistently thrives is Pearce.

It's a debatable point, sure. Many Gravity Project races sell out now (i.e. no on the day available) whereas you always could get in a while ago. Tidworth races sold out in advance, as did last FOD Winter DH, and the Rogate race for some time has been enter early or else. Borderline races doing well too?, but against that Aston Hill had to cancel at least one of their events last year (may not have been entries related, I forget).

So, maybe healthy would have been a better word than thriving, but I think the point still stands.

Yeah but you're comparing races that have 100 entries for the most part as a maximum capacity. (GP's are generally 100 people when i've done them, the odd Rogate race has 150 odd).

One offs like Tidworth etc are different. I don't know any other DH series that sells out other than Pearce. In fact a huge number of race series have gone over the years as well.

I think for the most part, regional enduro stuff is massively more popular than DH, the captive audience is significantly more vast for starters.

wonder what will happen to the EWS qualifing now?

I wouldn't want to pay any more than about that for a DH race like the ones at Cannock maybe double for an enduro because of the need for multiple stages, XC maybe up to £15.

Racers Guild events at Stile Cop are £30 now to enter and via BC.

Having entered, there does seem to be an awful lot put into behind the scenes that you don't see or appreciate until the day.

??

I wouldn't want to pay any more than about that for a DH race like the ones at Cannock maybe double for an enduro because of the need for multiple stages, XC maybe up to £15.

What. Then there wouldn't be any races would there? Your expectations are unrealistic!

Shame for BES. Wanted to do DYFI. Enduro does need something similar but maybe there isn't the market with all of these smaller events doing well. Be interesting to see how many racers there are. maybe rootsandrain would know so we could understand how viable extra races are.

I agree to an extent with the above about not paying to ride stuff you can ride all the time. I really like racing and have done for decades. Get to go some great places but Part of the appeal of racing for me is fresh tracks and natural stuff. But I can't stand trail centres so last thing I would do is to pay to enter it. Whatever happens any national series needs to think about what they race.

other people on the same day with other people with accurate timing, safety marshalls and no cheating

I agree, but it depends how marginal those extras are worth to you.

And there's a certain madness (to me) in paying to do something that's good because lots of (also paying) people are there. It's true, but I've always questioned my sanity in liking festivals over gigs for the same reason!

Shame about this. Si Paton was clearly running a very professional operation and trying to provide a top-notch experience for the entry fee.

Dunno what this says about the state of enduro as a discipline, clearly its not ready for a proper national series - but my experience of racing the PMBA events is that there are more serious and fast racers out there than ever before.

I'd be inclined to take him at face value that it was an unhappy combination of sponsors pulling out, low entry numbers and personal circumstances.

I guess the regional series need to keep on developing and let's see what happens out of that.

What. Then there wouldn't be any races would there? Your expectations are unrealistic!

But are they, or is it that expected levels of infrastructure surrounding the events with marshals, super duper timing, first aid etc etc are inflating the price of the event beyond what makes sense for many people?

Don't get me wrong, I pay to enter several events at varying price points every year, but every year I also see prices increase. Its becoming more and more the case that a weekend away for some events (including travel, B&B etc) is costing a small fortune.

Sad times for it to be not going ahead, also CSG - cannondale in the uk had their marketing budget cut by
30% this year so something had to give.

chakaping - Member

Dunno what this says about the state of enduro as a discipline, clearly its not ready for a proper national series

The succesful national series up here, and the previously succesful UKGE, prove otherwise tbh. But UKGE jumped the shark and it's been a mess since south of the border. (that's not a criticism of Si's events btw! Just to preempt misunderstanding)

The succesful national series up here, and the previously succesful UKGE, prove otherwise tbh

To a degree, but back when the UKGE was selling out fast, there was 'very' limited choice when it came to other races/series to enter.

The UK should have a national series IMO, they should be big days out & tough stages, otherwise there is no clear development/feeder route to bigger events.

The gap between a UKGE & an EWS was already big before, a regional to EWS would be huge. I guess it's now less of an issue, as the EWS is slowly evolving to be a little more elitist as it moves forward.

The UK should have a national series IMO, they should be big days out & tough stages, otherwise there is no clear development/feeder route to bigger events.

That's what BES was trying to be wasn't it? I think the problem was they wanted to be that but at 250 riders, which there isn't (yet). I wonder if they could have survived at 100-150 riders at twice the entry price. Certainly a lot of people would have paid that for the top UK series, but enough?

Northwind - The SES is effectively a regional series, being comparable in size, scale & audience to the other regional series.

UKGE tried to become more elite-focused and that seemed to be its undoing, so I think my comment about the UK not being ready for a [u]proper[/u] national series is very valid.

PS. Apparently the PMBA was the most popular series last year by volume of entries, who'd have thoguht that?

fifeandy - Member

What. Then there wouldn't be any races would there? Your expectations are unrealistic!

But are they, or is it that expected levels of infrastructure surrounding the events with marshals, super duper timing, first aid etc etc are inflating the price of the event beyond what makes sense for many people?

Don't get me wrong, I pay to enter several events at varying price points every year, but every year I also see prices increase. Its becoming more and more the case that a weekend away for some events (including travel, B&B etc) is costing a small fortune.

It is getting more expensive but so is everything so they have to cover costs. A single day dragon race with uplift cost about £25 15 years ago but we pay nearly double that for races without an uplift.

I think if you want toilets, some form of electronic timing, marshalls, medical cover, land hire then I'd be surprised if you can get it much less than what it costs at say £15.

The UK should have a national series IMO, they should be big days out & tough stages, otherwise there is no clear development/feeder route to bigger events.

+1

chakaping - Member

UKGE tried to become more elite-focused and that seemed to be its undoing

People said that at the time but imo it's bobbins- the changes that turned people off weren't doing anything for elites either. If changes in favour of elites had put off weekend warriors that would have been different but that was never really the case, and just putting people off and introducing barriers to entry isn't elite-focused. Stopping listening to riders was UKGE's undoing.

TBF there's only so many people that have the experience, the skillset and the willingness to run a national series. (the latter probably the hardest one to find!) I think that's the limiting factor, not riders or "the scene".

SES certainly is a national series, just like the SDA (and operates on a bigger level than the UK series did last year, apparently).

[quote=Mbnut ]Scotroutes... I take your point, hence why I have a Tweedlove event, a PMBA event, a WES event or two and a couple of Southern events lined up plus I had the BES Dyfi round lined up.
I enjoy the events a great deal, I actually don't really enjoy racing a great deal and for me supporting events and organisers is important.
Mountain biking and biking in general is my passion, when I travel to pursue it I make a point of using a spread of local businesses too, I try to give back as well as take from the sport.Aye - that wasn't a dig at you but you did highlight the fact that travel costs are not insignificant (whether racing or just leisuring) and can impact the amount of journeys we are prepared to make.

SES just like the SDA is a national series

And at the risk of taking the lid off a whole other argument, when talking about a 'British' series, that makes Scotland a region, in much the same way an English or Welsh series would also be regional.

Either way, is it possible we are maybe seeing some of the issues I brought up in the XC thread come up in an Enduro setting? Some in the thread have mentioned over saturation of events. Maybe looking at it from the other angle, there aren't enough grass roots races and hence by extension not a high enough population of competitive riders to justify a proper high level series? Just a thought.

However we have no real regional series to act as competition and draw riders away

Tweedlove Triple Crown is really the only other one and to be honest we don't need another series. SES does everything it needs to do. Muckmedden offers a lower level of racing and nice introductory/ less elite racing, albeit not in a series format. Other one off races too like Macavalanche, Kinlochleven, Dunkeld, Ballo etc

Actually I think I agree with the previous comments about the increase in local enduro events having an impact on the "national" series.

Lack of entries was the main driver for the demise of all three, so riders are clearly getting their needs met by the cheaper, closer regional series.

Northwind - we are talking about the state of [u]British[/u] enduro. If I give you a pedant point will you admit in that context the SES is a regional series?

It doesn't help that we appear to be an odd demographic who'll spend literally thousands on their bikes and then baulk at car parking fees, entry fees and anything else that costs a fraction of the machine you're riding!

£50 for the new tyre from Maxxis?...yes please.
£50 to enter an Enduro race?....what I'm not paying that!

chakaping - Member

Northwind - we are talking about the state of British enduro. I I give you a pedant point will you admit in that context the SES is a regional series?

Nope, a national series is a national series, it's just definition. And Scotland is part of Britain, last I looked. TBF one of the problems here is that there was never an English national enduro series.

But it's definitely true that there's a split at the borders when it comes to the state of enduro, and that's no surprise- the "modern era of enduro" started here after all and the rest of the UK has followed the Innerleithen MTB Racing lead. And we had local resilience whic meant we've not really suffered much from the fall of the UKGE and the subsequent stramash which mostly seems to have worn out riders and organisers alike and robbed the rest of the country of enthusiasm and momentum- without the SES we'd be in the same hole.

OTOH our national series has arms raced- some SES rounds are harder than the scottish EWS rounds- and the wider scene feels a bit hollow and imbalanced, and the Lite series which should be the stepping stone isn't thriving. I always say the same, I was lucky to be at #ukendurogroundzero back in 2011 and I've been hanging on ever since but I don't know that I'd have got into it the same way if I started today. What we have now is better in every other way frankly, but personally I don't think it's a healthy/balanced scene.

Meanwhile south of the border, there's what looks like a great range of regional and local events, from where I am your midrange seems way healthier than ours, but you now have literally no national level- you never had an English series and now there's no UK series either. But you have the breadth of scene that could realistically grow a new one quickly, if it can get away from the baggage of the past.

By which I mean- don't try and be the successor to a failed series, don't obsess with being shiny and "top end" til you have a bottom end, don't make it complicated when simple works, don't try and sell it on "benefits" that don't really make much difference to 99% of entrants. Broadly speaking, do it like the Scottish do, because it works. You, er, might want to improve the signage and marshalling a bit though.

But to get right back to the start; the idea that the UK can't support a national enduro series seems absurd, when it's done so in the past when the scene as a whole was far weaker, and when Scotland can do it credibly with about 1/12th of the population. I mean, Wales can support a UK downhill series 😉

Northwind - Member

TBH local experience was that they talked a good talk and posted pics of them throwing a shovel of hardcore in some mud but they didn't really do anything. Any actual building was done by the same locals as usual.

How little you know....

 

I know who built what and I know it was us that did all of the essential repairs afterwards too...

Over the last few years, I've raced PMBAs, Mini Enduros, Welsh Gravity Enduros and Ard Rock.

After experiencing Ard Rock in 2016 I've decided I like the feeling of the bigger events that are at interesting venues. So for 2017 it will be National Champs, Tweedlove International and Ard Rock. I never even considered the national series, it just didn't sound like fun.

Should re-emerge with local clubs putting on stages on their home tracks and the whole thing going on tour.

an expensive corporate experience is not interesting, frankly.

Should re-emerge with local clubs putting on stages on their home tracks and the whole thing going on tour.

Anyway just worked out to 4/5 rounds of the Oz Nationals it's 14,000km Round trip 🙂

I never even considered the national series, it just didn't sound like fun.

Really? Coz I've raced all those you've listed and the ukge as a series was better than the lot (well tweedlove as good as, if not better for the 1st EWS)

You've missed out!

We need a national series

It's not all bad though

The BES dig crew are now going to start a SW series and hopefully the EWS feeder event at Dyfi will still go ahead

Here's an idea

There are already Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland series.

Why don't they say the PMBA is the English series.

Each series nominates one event from theirs

Those events then count towards an overall "national/British" title

So you can do your normal series, and then a select handful of events in other series, or just focus on the events that count towards the "national" title.

That avoids over saturation of the event calendar and gives the other "regional"* series a boost

*I strongly object to the SES etc being called regional...

Bob that debate is for the Scotland Indy thread 😉

😆

I think its easy to overstate the importance of the BES not running. It was never our 'National' series, it never really got going, and ultimately was only ridden by maybe < 500 people in total. Non-racer (spectator) participation was zilch, the pits/trade stands were barely there, and there was zero atmosphere for the most part by comparison to a UKGE. Apart from the ever changing race format the race/courses were in the most part good, but thats really all it had going for it.

The wider Enduro race scene is stronger than ever and I don't think this is more than a blip tbh. It will be long forgotten by February.

Tweedlove actually blew everyone else away last year

kimbers - Member

Bob that debate is for the Scotland Indy thread

Let "the 45" have their victory 😉