Nightmare tenant/ legal question

Bit of a long one this, so apologies – any advice gratefully appreciated.

My OH has a flat in London, that she rented out through Marsh and Parsons. For a variety of reasons she’s now planning to sell it, and gave notice to the tenants through Marsh and Parsons as per the contract – there’s a little under a month left to run on the full contract, but the notice served was to end the tenancy at the end of April.

The tenants are now playing silly beggars; they’re refusing to pay any rent, refusing to move out, and have now told Marsh and Parsons that they’ll be there “for at least another month”.

This is all made more complicated by the OH not being in the UK; she’s having to make special trips to see the place, clear it up for selling etc, and Marsh and Parsons being clueless at every turn.
My view has been that it’s Marsh and Parsons’ issue, and any incremental costs incurred by (for example) having to fly to London again because the tenants won’t leave are to be added to the bill that’ll be served to M&P. But she’s tearing her hair out and doesn’t know what to do.

Any thoughts, suggestions, recommendations appreciated. Thanks!

no agent is going to take on the responsibility of delivering vacant possession. That’s up to your OH to deal with, via the agent or a solicitor if necessary. You either need to instruct your agent to take proceedings for taking possession, instruct your own lawyer, or even maybe an alternative agent with more experience a better track record on a one-off fee basis.

TBH it would probably have turned out far better if an early dialogue directly with the tenants had been initiated months ago, long before serving of formal notice, so that they had plenty of time to organise their affairs. I always have my own relationship with my tenants AS WELL as through an agent just so that I can keep an eye on any issues long before they arise. The 2 months stat notice isnt a lot of time and if they are saying “for at least another month” it means they haven’t found alternative accommodation yet and they arent going to go out on the streets for a few extra weeks/month when they’re protected in law for a bit.

If its an AST then there is a prescribed way for the landlord/agent to give notice, if the agent has not done this correctly (which is common) then it may be possible to stick some costs on the agent. If they have followed the procedure correctly you’ll have to stump up lawyers/courts costs to evict tenants.

As an aside, have you considered it may be worth more as a going concern, ie tenanted?

If you feel they have to go, I would retreat from the agent pronto and get some decent legal advice. Agents are not lawyers and have a habit (in my experience and observations) of naffing thigns up.

AS toys says. Only if the agents have made a mess of things are they liable but Its a good bet they have.

If the contract has another month to run was the notice correct? Was it two months notice given on a date the rent was due?

Waht you need to do is make sure the correct legal steps are taken at the correct and earliest times and for that you need real and good advice. IIRC ther is advice for landlords available on the net from good sources but I don’t know where

You may find it cheaper to simply pay them to move out on the date you need it vacant

If I were the tenant and had no where to go, I would stay until the last possible moment too

check out stuff here
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/section-21-notices.htm
and here

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/rent-arrears.htm

Yup either learn about this yourself on the net or get a lawyer.

I use the RLA[/url] pay 80 quid a year get telephone advice and all the docs you need, I dunno why anyone uses agents they are rubbish.

Usually easily sorted by going around and asking them nicely to vacate the property at there earliest convenience delivered in a stern manner. Some tennants are great others aren’t.

I use the RLA pay 80 quid a year get telephone advice and all the docs you need, I dunno why anyone uses agents they are rubbish.

Do the RLA arrange a plumber to fix a leaking pipe in the property when you’re in another country? Suspect that could be one of the reasons the OP’s OH and others in similar positions has engaged an agency to manage the tenancy. All very well to advise the owner to keep an eye on things themselves, but that isn’t always practical.

Usually easily sorted by going around and asking them nicely to vacate the property at there earliest convenience delivered in a stern manner. Some tennants are great others aren’t.

If he did that it could be harrasement and is frankly a very bad idea. It sounds very much like the tenants no how to play the systema nd may well be waiting for exactly this to happen.

OP tenants have rights, the breach of which can lead you into hot water either financially or even custodially, stick to the rule book.

Do the RLA arrange a plumber to fix a leaking pipe in the property when you’re in another country?

The OP appears familiar with modern communication methods like phone/internet. I could live 100yards away and never have to physically see the property to succesfully manage it. His only issue is tenant changeover, which then an agent might be useful.

I do understand why people feel it’s piece of mind but it is an illusion. All you need is a full contacts book and in rare instances a mate to have a quick look if you are unsure what the tradesmen are telling you is true. When I was travelling I bought my mate a lovely Surftech surfboard for 500 quid as a motivation to be there for my four properties, he felt V guilly when the year was over and tried to give it back or give me some money as he had very little to do. I managed all the plumbing and repair issues from NZ/INDO/SriLanka very succesfully.

go round and have a chat with the tenants. stern or sob story – appeal to their humanity. you might be surprised.

I would have no issue with going round to have a chat – on the basis of ” lets cut out the agent and try to find a solution” However do not get into harrassment in any way. You can get into big trouble for that

At least having a chat you can communicate your needs and expectations and assess are they playing silly beggars or not, ie are they having issues renting elsewhere? Do they only need to rent an additional mnth as they bought some place etc.

Its difficult to get the full picture through a middleman.

Yes please accept my apologies pingu if I misread your advice, calm communication with the tenant is a good idea.

this is far from a night mare scenario. clarify immediately and ask for evidence that they have handled the eviction in an appropriate proper and timely manner only if you can prove that they have not ( which is almost 100% certain that they will have not done so) have you any basis for reclaiming costs.
as for getting them out arrange to speak to them at thier earliset opportunity and give verbal and be prepared with written clarity of what your expectations are. be nice chatty and smiley costs nothing but have that serious formal notification in back pocket.. they ll go it wont be a problem. presumabley a bond is being held to cover expenses such as unpaid rent etc ..

Having just been to court to remove a tennant who had stopped paying rent, it took nearly 8 months to get then out and cost about £1k in solicitors / barristers fees. The system is very much in the favour of the tennant. It now turns out that even with a crown court Eviction order and debt order (£5.5k in unpaid rent), we can’t get the deposit back from the government’s deposit agency without going back to court to get a court order for a one-sided release, which would cost more than the deposit. Utter madness…

No – the system is very much in favour of the landlord.

Is it fair that a tenant who has done nothing wrong can be made homeless because the owner wants to sell? We used to have security of tenure in this country that would have prevented this and in most of Europe you could not be evicted like this at all.

No – the system is very much in favour of the landlord.

This is your own opinion, but given footflaps anecdote perhaps you should take that into consideration before making pronouncements.
If you stop paying your mortgage do you get to keep your house? No. It’s the same with rent.

Is it fair that a tenant who has done nothing wrong can be made homeless because the owner wants to sell?

Judges do not allow people to be made homeless, this is over egging the pudding somewhat.

Ofc it is is they’ve been given the notice the tenant agreed to in the contract, it’s not like there’s nowhere else they can move to either.

This is your own opinion, but given footflaps anecdote perhaps you should take that into consideration before making pronouncements.

Footflaps has my sympathy as that sounds like a right mare of a situation, but from the position of both being a landlord and a tenant, and being in the position of having a good landlord that I rent from and good tenants, I’m inclined to agree with TJ as to where the balance of power lies.

Toys – you can legally give notice to quit and evict tenants to get vacant possession to sell. This would not be acceptable in most of Europe adn wasn’t here in the past.

The tenancy terms have been changed hugely in favour of the landlord. a tenant who has done nothing wrong can be evicted for no reason. thts not fair.

The tenants here did not stop paying rent until they were given notice in a situation where they had done nothign wrong ( from the4 info we have)

Tenants have no security and rely upon landlords behaving well.

Weirdly I have to agree with TJ. Wtf?

Tenants’ right in the UK are a disgrace.

Edit: (moved the apostrophe!)

(not defending the tenants by any means, they sound like idiots).

Footflaps has my sympathy as that sounds like a right mare of a situation, but from the position of both being a landlord and a tenant, and being in the position of having a good landlord that I rent from and good tenants, I’m inclined to agree with TJ as to where the balance of power lies.

It might seem that way until your tennant stops paying rent and refuses to budge. I thought the law was fair until we started the legitimate process, all above board and to the letter of the law. That cost us £6k and we’ll not get a penny back from the tennant even with a court order.

Teej, I know the facts, so it is a case of opinion, of which yours is perfectly valid, if IMHO wrong. But in the meantime please don’t tell mistruths

Is it fair that a tenant .. can be made homeless because the owner wants to sell?

to exaggerate your position.

Thanks for the replies; much along the same lines as we’d concluded, I think.

FWIW, there has been contact with the tenants… which has ended with them being abusive. So not much going on there.
The longer version of the story is that the unpaid rent is apparently due to Marsh and Parsons not keeping the flat maintained in response to tenant complaints; in all honesty I think I would have pushed the OH to keep a closer eye on what was going on, but it’s easier said now than later.

I think the most important thing for me right now is to reassure the OH that yes, the tenants will leave, sooner or later. It may take longer than she likes, and it may cost money, but they will leave, at which point she’s back on track.

Just to go back to the original point – you need a good lawyer and you need to get on top of this quickly

I don’t know all the details but there are certain time constraints about what can be done when and you need to work within that tightly to get this resolved quickly.

The agents would not be getting another penny from me and I would be after them if they have made any mistakes that have cost you.

Once they are legally just squatting/legally you can evict them, hire some nutters…. have them dress up in black gear and balaclavas then send them round to batter the door in with one of those police hammers and drag them out screaming at 3am.

Probably totally illegal but definitely the most entertaining way to deal with the situation

The longer version of the story is that the unpaid rent is apparently due to Marsh and Parsons not keeping the flat maintained in response to tenant complaints; in all honesty I think I would have pushed the OH to keep a closer eye on what was going on, but it’s easier said now than later.

Tenants cannot legally withold rent, you tenants are cheeky little shites. Inform them about this.

there’s a little under a month left to run on the full contract, but the notice served was to end the tenancy at the end of April.

Seems pointless to ask them to move out a few weeks early? Why did you do that?

For non payment of rent there is a process. Going from memory its some thing like this (via the agent).

1) 2-3 days late, polite phone call reminder
2) 7 days late, polite letter asking for payment within 7 days or you will consider court proceedings for a PO.
3) 14 days late, polite letter asking for payment within 7 days or you will begin court proceedings for a PO.
4) 21 days late, polite letter asking for immediate payment or you will begin court proceedings for a PO.
5) Begin court proceedings.

Unless you have hardcore squatters they will pay as soon as the first letter that mentions court comes. Sounds like some lackey at your management firm has upset them. Speak to some one senior and get them to smooth it over with the tenant and also remind them that they need to pay the rent.

PS I highly recommend “7 pillars of buy-to-let wisdom” by Ajay Ahuja. Covers all this and more.

you tenants are cheeky little shites. Inform them about this.

Tried that!

Thanks everyone, appreciate the input. We are indeed speaking to lawyers, if only to cut through the BS. Apparently the owner of Marsh and Parsons previously owned Foxtons, so this is going to get worse before it gets better, I think…

Your OH has used a proper deposit scheme I take it? If not she’s likely to get stung on that front too.

And it sounds like you need to take action against the letting agents for failing to represent you properly.

So Nickos O/H has a flat in london she rents out, she sees it as a nest egg, and now has decided to sell it and terminate the residents contract to live in their home, they find this upsetting,and after getting advice off internet chat rooms have decided to stay until they find somewhere else to live which is not easy due to benefit caps and travel logistics to work.

They are now not paying rent on principle , and there appears nothing that the landlords agents can do, except start eveiction proceedings in court,which will cause a lot of hassle and be costly in time and money.

Just perhaps work out what it will cost you to evict them legally and then put half in an envelope and offerit to them to leave , before they start doing any minor/major damage, which does happen,eg like leaving a leaking tap running.

Is it fair that a tenant .. can be made homeless because the owner wants to sell?

Unlikely to happen I’d have thought, in any event, isn’t that part of the bargain of renting? You don’t have to deal with a mortgage but are subject to the rules of a contract?

I think Project more or less has it about right, this is how the real world actually works.

leaving a leaking tap running

Leaky taps do that all by themselves.

My brother had a bad experience with a tenant who stopped paying rent, and the agent was entirely useless. We were shocked at just how far in favour of the tenant the law was. I’d never let a property as a consequence.

but a leaking dripping tap, that floods the rest of the building,

and it was reported.

either way dead costly.

For future reference you can get legal protection insurance to indemnify you against the costs of bad tenants – won’t help you with this one but I am surprised the agent didn’t insist you had it, especially as landlord is abroad and legal proceedings therefore more likely.
On the specifics as a letting agent in a previous life I can tell you that the best solution will be a face to face deal of some kind – you want to sell, they need somewhere to live, any legal problem will cost you infinitely more than giving them a helping hand to move on. That said, don’t hand over any cash until they are actually leaving, packed up and gone and your inventory is complete and satisfactory.
Also, do check the tenancy agreement, if they are on a short hold agreement that has exceeded you only need to give them 30 days notice, often this is obviously woefully inadequate to find somewhere else to live so they might just be understandably panicking and a bit of flexibility on your part, say agreeing to roll the tenancy for another two months, might work wonders.

Is it fair that a tenant who has done nothing wrong can be made homeless because the owner wants to sell? We used to have security of tenure in this country that would have prevented this and in most of Europe you could not be evicted like this at all.

Eh. So I own a property, and you pay me some money every month to stay in that property. I need my property back for some reason (to sell, to cover in plastic and slide around naked in – whatever). I give you reasonable notice (1 month,2 months) at which point you find another property to lease.

Sorry, I’m lost. Why on earth would you provide ‘security of tenure’ when all you are paying for is a service based on a contract. Seems a bit weird to me that a tenant has ‘rights’ over a property they don;t own and only pay to stay in based on a contract.