Nigel! Farage!

What we really need is for ordinary working people to recognise their shared challenges

This.

Plus the recognition that by and large, we are all ordinary working people. The few that aren’t control the narrative

The essential intellectual underpinning of anti immigration is racism

I still maintain that if we’d pushed the fact – and it is a fact – that lower EU immigration directly equates to higher non-EU immigration then Remain would have seen a landslide victory.

It is a mistake to believe that racism is the exclusive domain of EDL types. Within my parents’ generation it’s normalised, for every gammon there’s ten cans of luncheon meat. They might not be attending rallies or rattling away furiously on the internet, but they’re there. And they’re the people we need to reach, not the ones who are pushing bacon into mosque letterboxes.

I had cause to visit an old school friend’s mother just before Christmas. Lovely woman, heart of gold, tirelessly raised two kids after their father cleared off, doesn’t go out much because of agoraphobia, managed to mention the shorter version of “bloody Pakistanis” three times in the conversation.

It isn’t about facts or truths any more for a huge swathe of society. It is about feeling and fear.

This, 100%.

Sucess on a huge scale *rolleyes*

We’ve made this mistake before. The best way to generate a large crowd is to first create a small one.

Your apparent claim that Scotland experiences significantly less racism and bigotry than England and Wales is not particularly convincing imo.

Indeed. The rest of the UK outwith England are just as racist and bigoted as the English are, only towards the English rather than dark-skinned immigrants.

Are Reform going to be subject to the same rules as other political parties ever?

Probably around the same time as GB News are subject to the same rules as other broadcasters

Try telling your average Reform voter that they and the folk outside the nearest mosque at the weekend are actually political bedfellows.

🙂

As usual Massie uses one or two fairly obvious facts such as the rise in support for Reform in Scotland then makes assertions that his “evidence” does not necessarily support.  For example he claims that polling figures for recent council elections are evidence that a large number of those who did not vote and therefore were not in the figures are likely to be reform supporters.

He also claims that independence receives more attention than unionism- given that the media in Scotland is overwhelmingly unionist that claim is nonsense.

@tja that video really feels like it is from another era.

The rest of the UK outwith England are just as racist and bigoted as the English are, only towards the English rather than dark-skinned immigrants.
Posted 51 minutes ago

As an English born man with a very english name and accent I can tell you categorically this is not true.  anti english sentiment is on the wane and it is much less than it used to be

i am highly amused by folk who live in England telling me what is happening in Scotland

What I would dispute though is your claim that this is because Scots see him as a racist.

Your apparent claim that Scotland experiences significantly less racism and bigotry than England and Wales is not particularly convincing imo.

What makes you think that?  You have some knowledge of Scots politics I do not have?

Of course we have racist bams – mainly as above in the sectarian bits.    Of course Farage is seen as racist because thats what he is and thats what he is called out as by loads of folk.

i am highly amused by folk who live in England telling me what is happening in Scotland

Whereas folk who live in England are equally amused by you telling us what is happening here.

Up to date studies are rare but if you look at the 2017 British Social Attitudes survey there is not a major difference between Scottish and English views on migration. Later ones are more patchy show a slightly higher pro migration attitude in Scotland but not significant especially when you take into account the differing levels of migration.  That migration isnt a devolved matter also means it plays a lesser part in Scottish affairs.

So the fact that the racist Fargist parties get little traction up here, that even the tories do not throw racist dog whistles all the time let alone scots labour, the fact that we voted overwhelmingly remain not for a racist brexit?  the fact that we simply do not have the same % of racists is irrelevant?

OK

What makes you think that? You have some knowledge of Scots politics I do not have?

What makes me think that is that you are the only person I know who claims that Scotland doesn’t suffer from similar levels of racism as the rest of the UK, and that, according to you, is the primary reason that Nigel Farage is not as popular in Scotland as he is in the rest of the UK.

Humour is obviously very subjective but it widely accepted by many people that Frankie Boyle is a very funny guy. The reason the gag in the video above works is because it is based an element of truth. If it wasn’t then no one would find it funny, it would be no more than a weird comment.

I don’t know if Frankie Boyle has some knowledge of Scots politics which you don’t.

As usual Massie uses one or two fairly obvious facts such as the rise in support for Reform in Scotland then makes assertions that his “evidence” does not necessarily support.

Par for the course on this forum, whatever the subject.

the fact that we simply do not have the same % of racists is irrelevant?

Evidence for this claim? Note your circular argument of Reform are racist and so anyone who votes for them are racist doesnt count.

As for tories and Labour. Why would they when, as above, its not a devolved matter so not a handy battlefield.

Although since you mention them using the 2017 data Labour and tory supporters in Scotland are more likely to be negative about immigration than Labour and tory supporters in England. The same is true for people in favour of remain.

Its almost like its more complicated than simple racism.

Reform rallies in Scotland ?

The only attendees, will be the ones bussed in from down south to support fauxrage, and the rest will be rangers supporters, with as sprinkling of generalized race hate losers

As usual Massie uses one or two fairly obvious facts such as the rise in support for Reform in Scotland then makes assertions that his “evidence” does not necessarily support.

Par for the course on this forum, whatever the subject.

He gets paid for his drivel where as our drivel is given free

As an English born man with a very english name and accent I can tell you categorically this is not true.  anti english sentiment is on the wane and it is much less than it used to be

i am highly amused by folk who live in England telling me what is happening in Scotland

I’m not disagreeing with you, but do temper your perspective with you living in a gentrified area of Edinburgh. Not Methil.

Anti English sentiment is posted on Facebook that I’ll see. And anti immigrant sentiment is posted routinely, both on local community pages and Fife wide pages. The anti immigrant stuff is often related to insinuating criminality of one type or another including them being sex offenders, or that resources taken away from Scots to give them a free ride.

Years ago I’d have dismissed it as “never read the comments” but these are real people with real beliefs.

I didn’t say zero but less.

Note your circular argument of Reform are racist and so anyone who votes for them are racist doesnt count.

Its not a circular argument.  Faarge is a racist.  No doubt at all.  Reform are a racist party.  No doubt at all.  Far less people in Scotland will vote for either in any form therefore we have less people voting for racist parties and a reasonable corollary of that is that we have less racists. Its completely linear

How many Scottish mosques were attacked in the summer riots?

Par for the course on this forum, whatever the subject.

He gets paid for his drivel where as our drivel is given free

Are you passing comment on your own comment? I agree that one source isn’t necessarily convincing, and that the source’s agenda always needs to be taken into consideration, neural news reporting and analysis is the exception rather than the rule.

But there are multiple sources which suggest that like the rest of the UK Scotland has seen a significant increase in support for Reform UK since the July general election.

I provided one link making that point in the Guardian and another one in the Herald. Here’s a second one from the Herald :

Farage factor could spark Unionist headache in Scotland

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24822360.farage-factor-spark-unionist-headache-scotland/

“However, in July, the party pulled in 167,979 votes in Scotland — 7% of the total.

Polls suggest that in months since their support has doubled to around 14%.

It’s a staggering turnaround for a party that, not long ago, looked destined for obscurity.“

 

A quick google I can find none. 🙂

One stabbing of a lad of pakistani descent near a mosque

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24650911.scottish-mosque-target-online-misinformation-twitter-x/

all you get in response is scots calling out the racists

SNP councillor Finlay MacFarlane also said: “As an alternative to this racist sh*te – why not try out the Mosque Kitchen? Amazing value and increeeedible food!”

How many Scottish mosques were attacked in the summer riots?

Exactly the same amount as were attacked in London. And London has more than ten times the number of mosques that Scotland has (approximately 1,500 apparently)

And Londoners aren’t shy about rioting.

all you get in response is scots calling out the racists

And the racists in England were faced down by much larger counter protests.

My own experience driving my girlfriend around the UK on holiday a few years ago in a German registered car, Scotland was the only place I heard verbal racism directed at me because I was driving a foreign registered car. When I say directed at me, I mean deliberately spoken so I would hear, but not to my face. It happened on 3 occasions and I didn’t have any problems any where else in the uk.

Ernie – try the national for a non hard unionist view ( actually the herald is reasonable but still pro unionist).  The guardian is resolutely unionist.

#

Its still HALF the support the faragists get in England most of which have come from the tory vote

You need to run it thru 12ft.  It has both polling for another westminster election and the next Holyrood election.  Because holyrood is elected proportionately reform would win a few seats

In both there is a major boost for the SNP – you know the party that calls out racists

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24822359.poll-predicts-scottish-pro-independence-majority-2026-holyrood-vote/

Its completely linear

Its completely bollocks. You start from an overly simplified argument and then run from there.

Luckily we can look at actual data to see if this Scottish exceptionalism is correct or not.

Lets have a look at a recent report.

So about the same and possibly higher for some groups in Scotland.

Obviously the national is resolutely pro independence but it will help you to be better informed that just getting the unionist side and view.  The national is the only pro independence new source.  Everything else varies from mildly unionist to resolutely hard unionist

Whats bollox about it?

That Farage is racist?
That Reform are racist?

That less folk vote for racists in Scotland?

all three are factual and well evidenced.

That less folk vote for racists in Scotland?

all three are factual and well evidenced.

Read the link dissonance shared.

Large survey, 14200. I dont know enough about them or their methodology so recommend nor criticize, but I’ll not dismiss it out of hand.

all three are factual and well evidenced.

Lets stick with your claim about “a reasonable corollary of that is that we have less racists”. If this is true how come every survey disagrees with you?

Could it be your definition of reform == racist is overly simplistic. Maybe people are voting for other reasons?

Even if they are voting for racist reasons then we have the problem that if you are a simple minded type who wants to blame someone else for all your issues then in Scotland you can blame the English and vote SNP. In England it needs a bit more imagination.

then in Scotland you can blame the English and vote SNP.

FFS – are we back to this nonsense that the SNP are anti english racists?

You need to run it thru 12ft. It has both polling for another westminster election and the next Holyrood election. Because holyrood is elected proportionately reform would win a few seats

TJ I am sure that the National is a perfectly reliable source without an axe to grind but that article doesn’t make the claim which you are making, ie, that support for Reform UK isn’t growing in Scotland.

In fact it makes the complete opposite claim, ie, support for Reform UK is growing in Scotland. :

This compared to 19% for Labour, 15% for the Tories, 11% for Reform UK, 9% for the LibDems

11% for Reform UK in Scotland represents a significant increase in support. It is certainly more than they received in the general election both in Scotland and in London.

And your article quotes John Curtice as a reliable source. Do you think he is reliable?

This is more stuff that he has said recently :

John Curtice: Reform breakthrough could bring chaos to Holyrood

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24600075.john-curtice-reform-breakthrough-bring-chaos-holyrood/

that support for Reform UK isn’t growing in Scotland.

I never claimed that.  I said it was significantly less than in England

TJ I am sure that the National is a perfectly reliable source without an axe to grind

I assume thats sarcastic?

FFS – are we back to this nonsense that the SNP are anti english racists?

That is not what dissonance  said. This was the claim :

if you are a simple minded type who wants to blame someone else for all your issues then in Scotland you can blame the English and vote SNP. 

Are you seriously suggesting that the SNP does not blame any of Scotland’s problems on the English and the Westminster parliament?

So what is the argument in favour of independence based on them?

that support for Reform UK isn’t growing in Scotland.

I never claimed that. I said it was significantly less than in England

I am fairly sure you did claim that support for Reform UK wasn’t increasing in Scotland.

Okay, since you accept that support for Nigel Farage is growing in Scotland what do you put that down to…. Scots becoming more racist in the last six months?

Personally I would doubt it, I strongly suspect that other factors come to play. Although you appear to believe that it is all down to racism.

Btw support for Reform UK is also significantly less in London than the rest of the UK. London doesn’t have many SNP politicians.

So what is the argument in favour of independence based on them?

Self determination of a peoples and country

the English and the Westminster parliament?

the two are not synonyms

Its not a circular argument.  Faarge is a racist.  No doubt at all.  Reform are a racist party.  No doubt at all.  Far less people in Scotland will vote for either in any form therefore we have less people voting for racist parties and a reasonable corollary of that is that we have less racists. Its completely linear

Maybe Scots are so racist that they cant stomach voting for an English politician or a party that supports British culture and values.

a party that supports British culture and values.

You mean Reform UK?

Which one’s Massie? Not that it really matters. It’s just another thread going down the pan thanks to the usual suspects.

Massie is a columnist for the Times.  Also written for the spectator.  Rightwinger and hard unionist