Nigel! Farage!

What we really need is for ordinary working people to recognise their shared challenges and enemies, band together to maximise their outcomes for the good of society at large, start publishing their own popular news media to get some balance out there, and build some kind of political movement to represent their interests in parliament and in the media. Some kind of labour movement to counteract a political landscape which seems to represent only the interests of rich rent-seekers and their overstuffed pensions and property portfolios.

I’d done a share from a YouTube search so hopefully not

If it’s his channel he’ll milk how many hits it’s had and he may get a small amount of income if enough watch it. I’ll give it a miss then.

The only party that could really challenge and shake up the status quo whilst offering hope is the Labour Party. But there is no evidence that under the present leadership Labour are prepared to deviate from the established consensus and offer a radical alternative

Nope. The left has nothing to do with the rise of far-right populism, and the Alt-Right. It is entirely a failure of conservatives to effectively police themselves and their policies. The Farage talking points;  anti-immigration, anti-feminism, wokeness, and the endless “failure of state” nihilism is conservatives talking to themselves about the failures of their own policies The left have never been the answer they’re looking for, Labour by definition, regardless how radical they are, are not what the people promoting and listening to Farage are ever going to be interested in, and in fact by tracking more radically, Labour would just make themselves more of the bogeyman. The answer to Farage isn’t radical left (never has been) it’s conservative policies that work to support the working class, ironically of course, the right can’t provide those things.

I’m pretty certain Trump is going to treat him as de facto UK ambassador to the US and pretty much ignore Mandelson. And what could the UK do about that? Withdraw our diplomats? I hardly think so.

I doubt that because it will become clear, even to Trump, that farage can’t actually do anything or agree anything with the Uk. I’m sure he will use him as his paid cheerleader. But so what? That wont get anything done, assuming trump wants to agree anything with the Uk

What we really need is for ordinary working people to recognise their shared challenges and enemies, band together to maximise their outcomes for the good of society at large, start publishing their own popular news media to get some balance out there, and build some kind of political movement to represent their interests in parliament and in the media. Some kind of labour movement to counteract a political landscape which seems to represent only the interests of rich rent-seekers and their overstuffed pensions and property portfolios.

And yet, whenever a Pied Piper comes along offering an easier alternative (like blaming immigrant, woke academic elites, benefits claimants etc) any solidarity goes straight down the shitter.

The like of Farage know full well how to divide and conquer. They know that they don’t even need to be consistent given the ability to tailor social media campaigns.

Why does this **** deserve his own thread? The **** already gets a disproportionate amount of airtime as it is.

Matt, if you live in a shitehole estate in a run down town/city on a low paid job, you may feel differently.

Agreed. I “served my time” in Toxteth, Liverpool and Manor Estate, Sheffield. I’ve a lot of good friends who still live there. It’s a view I understand the roots of, and the hope it brings.

But it’s a false hope.

And unfortunately we will need to have Farage and party come in and make things worse before many realise.

Evidence: Brexshit.

Farage is a racist, but more than that, like Steve Bannon and all those other fringe hard right talking heads, it the fear of the gradual decline in their supremacy that drives them. Conservativism has failed, according to them, becasue it failed to pay attention to ethnicity. The riots of the summer just gone were in part about the failures of neo-globalism, but the prime-facia target of brown people wasn’t chosen randomly and the left; regardless of how radical it is, or how educational it tries to be, or indeed, how comfortable it makes people’s lives isn’t going to solve the fundamental issue at the heart of the populism of Farage and people like him. Becasue the intellectual underpinning to their manifesto is the legitimacy of white ethno-states, the supremacy of men, the positioning of women of only care givers and mothers, and deviancy away from that is, to quote Bannon “A failure and the futile denial of biological reality”

The left, regardless of their level of radicalism, cannot resolve this for them.

Like it or not, Farage is the most successful UK politician of the last 15 years.

That obviously reflects very badly on us as an electorate, but that’s modern life, it would seem.

And this is what I think is probably the insurmountable problem, neither Labour nor the Tories can do that

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Experience from Scotland says they can

Nope, they can’t. In Scotland both the Tories and Labour have clearly failed, so Scottish voters abandoned them both for the SNP.

In England after the failure of both the Tories and Labour English voters were prepared, for a while, to give the Liberal Democrats a chance. Right up until 2010 when they decided to jump into bed with the Tories the LibDems were polling about the same as Reform UK are currently doing so.

The Tories and Labour were not able to offer the Scottish voters a different alternative to their neoliberal consensus.  It doesn’t matter if it is England, Scotland, or Wales, neither the Tories nor Labour are capable of offering a different vision to voters.

They both rely on each other’s failures to win general elections. Something which now appears to be a flawed strategy.

Well okay everyone in Rotherham becomes everyone at your place of work so how many people are we talking about?

It seemed pretty clear to me what he meant. I’m fairly confident that it was clear to you also.

Yup I agree. The preferred way of dealing with Nigel Farage, ie to mostly ignore him, is highly unlikely to work.

Changing tact and exposing him as a fraud, a liar, and as someone with no solutions, should be relatively easy to do.

The problem is that won’t be enough (look at the United States and Donald Trump) Unless people are offered something genuinely different to the existing status quo they are likely to take a punt thinking they have nothing to lose.

This I agree with.

The status quo – do nothing – appeals to no-one regardless of where they stand on the political spectrum. With that in mind, do something – anything – becomes compelling.

It’s how we got brexit and it’s how we have Reform UK today, clue’s in the name. People wanted to give £350M or whatever it was to the NHS, people want change, people want (small ‘r’) reform. But it’s a lesson we didn’t understand in 2016 and it’s a lesson we still haven’t learned today, and it’s a lesson Garage recognised has been dining out on for decades. And this is why

Farage is the most successful UK politician of the last 15 years.

We’re never going to win over the in-laws with pesky things like “facts.” Farage knows this all too well. For some demographics, emotion will Trump reality every time.

Nope. The left has nothing to do with the rise of far-right populism, and the Alt-Right. It is entirely a failure of conservatives to effectively police themselves and their policies.

LOL! The “red wall” is turning to Reform UK because the Tories have failed!

Remind me again why it’s called the red wall, I  have forgotten 😉

Well okay everyone in Rotherham becomes everyone at your place of work so how many people are we talking about?

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It seemed pretty clear to me what he meant. I’m fairly confident that it was clear to you also.

Yup, it was very clear to me what he meant, ie that Nigel Farage is worshiped, apparently, in Rotherham. Why do you think I suggested that I hadn’t understood?

And it seems pretty clear to me what I meant when I pointed out that Reform UK couldn’t even win Rotherham in a general election less than six months ago, even with the Tories standing aside for them.

Reform UK couldn’t even manage to get as many votes in Rotherham in July as the Tories got in 2019

That doesn’t sound like a place where Nigel Farage is worshiped to me. Does it to you?

It is one thing to claim that Nigel Farage is seizing the moment and Reform UK are doing very well, and quite another to totally exaggerate the level of personal support he enjoys.

Whatever your in-laws might say.

Nope, they can’t. In Scotland both the Tories and Labour have clearly failed, so Scottish voters abandoned them both for the SNP.

Irrelevant.  the SNP have been a major force for 20+ years and the government for 15.

The actual difference is that Farges racism has been called out by politicians and press including labour and tories.  We have a different national discourse and Farage is not a part of it.  2 anti Farage stories on the Front page of the National

I love the way you say Farage can mould public opinion but no one else can.  When the entire political establishment call him out he becomes irrelevant

The Tories and Labour were not able to offer the Scottish voters a different alternative to their neoliberal consensus.

neither are the SNP – just another social democratic party just a bit to the left of labour

The Tories and Labour were not able to offer the Scottish voters a different alternative to their neoliberal consensus.

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neither are the SNP – just another social democratic party just a bit to the left of labour

Er, neither are Reform UK. What’s your point caller?

My point, which you appear to have missed, is that both the SNP and independence is seen as an alternative to the failure of both the Tories and Labour.

In England a while back it was the Liberal Democrats who were seen as an alternative to the failure of both the Tories and Labour.  Today  Reform UK are polling the same as the LibDems were 15 years ago.

I’m pretty certain Trump is going to treat him as de facto UK ambassador to the US and pretty much ignore Mandelson. And what could the UK do about that? Withdraw our diplomats? I hardly think so.

Which is where exposing Farage for what he is – an absent failure of an MP – rather than reflecting what Farage and Trump want us to think is the better course.

By the way, any vox pops recently from his adoring electorate in Clacton? I’d love to hear how voting for him has improved their lives or democratic representation.

I suspect that his majority in Clacton would increase significantly if there was a general election now. The latest opinion poll puts Reform UK on 1% behind the Tories who are on 23%

My point, which you appear to have missed, is that both the SNP and independence is seen as an alternative to the failure of both the Tories and Labour.

Incorrect.  they are the establishment now and seen by a significant section of the independence support as at best lukewarm on independence.

My point is that the SNP are a part of the same neoliberal consensus.  the SNP have long since – a generation – stopped being seen as a protest vote.

The political difference is in Scotland the SNP, labour and the tories will happily call out Farage.

When did you see this sort of thing from a english politician?

Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, just said: “One of the things we’ve learned is that there isn’t anything that Nigel Farage wouldn’t blame on foreigners.”

Remember when she refused to shake his hand after the TV debate?   Remember when she tore into him in that debate?  the SNP and Greens have led the way in opposing Farage and called him out many times

Why do you think Reform only got 7% of the vote in Scotland despite all the huge publicity they got in UK wide media?  the answer is that the politicians here are prepared to call him out for his vile racist drivel.  It sets the national political discourse

The First Minister ( Swinney) has described Nigel Farage as a “traitor to the interests of the people of these islands” following his comments about the war in Ukraine.

In an interview with the BBC, Farage said “we provoked this war” and drew a link between the war and the expansion of Nato and the European Union.

But responding to the Reform UK leader, John Swinney told journalists on a campaign stop in Edinburgh: “I this these are some of the most appalling remarks I’ve heard, literally in my life, and they’re of an extraordinary degree of absurdity and danger.

“Vladimir Putin has voluntarily invaded a sovereign country and nobody provoked him to, nobody was a threat to Vladimir Putin.

“Nigel Farage has confirmed what all of us have suspected of him – that he is a dangerous man.

“And that he is a traitor to the interests of the people of these islands, and the people of Ukraine.”

Every aspect of his world could only be described as ‘comfortable’ and inconceivably more prosperous than the post war, pre NHS world he was born into. Yet the bile he spouts would make you believe that the world around him is crumbling and that there are immigrants on every street corner in his locality hell bent on taking his money, raping his wife and soiling the streets.

Their fears are being preyed on rather than reality. “Its a shite world out there and they’re coming for your lifestyle”. Get them thinking that way, so when they see Turkish barbers and Asian vape shops they know what they’re being told is true. aka there are more lazy, benefit-claiming, NHS-busting white British people in the country but they’re harder to spot.

Incorrect. they are the establishment now

Sure they are which is presumably why they got hammered in July’s general election. However the latest seat prediction based on a mega poll claims that if an election was held now Labour would lose 67 to Reform and 26 to the SNP.

My point is that because Labour cannot offer any different from the status quo they are losing votes to Reform in England and Wales and to the SNP in Scotland.

There is no easy solution for Labour because the only way to reverse this is to offer a radical alternative, something which cannot happen under the current leadership.

So they can attack Nigel Farage as much as they want, which would obviously be a good thing, but it needs to be backed up with offering an alternative vision. Which personally I can’t see happening.

This is what labour should be doing – calling him out at every opportunity as the racist puppet of Putin he is.  Instead they give him credibility and credence by pandering to him and by making anti immigrant anti EU statements.  Every timew he opens his mouth he should be called out in no uncerftain terms – by all westminster parties

Yup, it was very clear to me what he meant, ie that Nigel Farage is worshiped, apparently, in Rotherham. Why do you think I suggested that I hadn’t understood?

I’m equally confident that both you and the readers here know why.

It is one thing to claim that Nigel Farage is seizing the moment and Reform UK are doing very well, and quite another to totally exaggerate the level of personal support he enjoys.

Perhaps. But to understate it is a graver error than to overstate it, n’est-ce pas? Laughing at Mr Toad is at least in part how we got to where we are now and nothing has changed since.

Someone once said that the art of diplomacy was to say “good doggie” long enough to find a big stick to **** it with. The mistake we’ve made with Farage is not realising that we’re the dog.

By the way, any vox pops recently from his adoring electorate in Clacton? I’d love to hear how voting for him has improved their lives or democratic representation.

Well he was busy cosplaying a country gentleman at the Jaywick boxing day hunt. Oh my mistake that was at his home in Kent.

Although I suspect any voxpops might actually help him. After all it shows people are somewhat paying attention to Clacton even if it is just asking why he isnt there.

Why do you think Reform only got 7% of the vote in Scotland despite all the huge publicity they got in UK wide media? the answer is that the politicians here are prepared to call him out for his vile racist drivel. It sets the national political discourse

Thats one explanation. Another is that the anti “establishment” area was already occupied.

I suspect that his majority in Clacton would increase significantly if there was a general election now

I’m not so sure. There’s been a fair bit of noise about him going to the States more than Clacton, I’m wondering if there are any local polls to see whether his (lack of) local action has changed their mind.

the Jaywick boxing day hunt.

Now that would be a sight worth seeing. Normally involves a police helicopter and the quarry vaulting garden fences carrying a PS5 though.

Ernie – I don’t know how to explain it any better.  SNP do not “offer a radical alternative”  Labour could do exactly what the SNP do.  Call him out

But to understate it is a graver error than to overstate it, n’est-ce pas? Laughing at Mr Toad is at least in part how we got to where we are now and nothing has changed since.

Absolutely to understate would be a grave error. I have on more than one occasion suggested that fascism requires three conditions to thrive, economic instability/crisis, a scapegoat to blame, and the threat they pose not to be taken seriously.

Apparently not everyone agrees that a thread on Nigel Farage is useful but he is not going to go away just because people want to try to ignore him.

The problem is that it becomes difficult to gauge how to deal with Reform when their level of support is misrepresented. How can you expect to understand what motives voters to back Reform when you do that?

Rotherham actually provides a very good case study imo. Probably better than most because In July the Tories gave Reform a clear run to oppose Labour, much is made that the right-wing anti-Labour vote is split, and yet Labour still won.

However six months later Reform would more than likely win the seat. So what’s happened to change that? Nigel Farage is still the same **** that he was six months ago.What has changed is that we now have a Labour government which wasn’t the situation six months ago, and the people of Rotherham I dare say don’t feel inspired.

Unless you can think of another likely reason?

Another is that the anti “establishment” area was already occupied.

SNP are the establishment.

SNP are the establishment.

So is Farage and, for that matter, the tories. Doesnt stop them pretending not to be and being able to blame someone else for their woes. Whether that is the EU or westminster.

I’m wondering if there are any local polls to see whether his (lack of) local action has changed their mind.

There was one a while back when he had already sodded off to the US but the majority were just nodding along and praising him as an ambassador in waiting. Hopefully it will change but I doubt it. He is extremely talented at blaming others for his failings (eg how his defence of the fishing industry was only matched by his lack of turning up at the actual meetings where he could do something).

Normally involves a police helicopter and the quarry vaulting garden fences carrying a PS5 though.

Thats the steeplechase.

The foxhunting in jaywick unfortunately is a victim of class warfare. Its fine to do it with foxhounds whilst on a horse and drinking sherry (incidentally it was amusing how he went for a “pint” vs the traditional sherry/port) but not with bully xls whilst mounted on surrons with a can of stella.

Its political correctness gone mad.

The problem is that it becomes difficult to gauge how to deal with Reform when their level of support is misrepresented. How can you expect to understand what motives voters to back Reform when you do that?

… is a very good point.

Unless you can think of another likely reason?

People are f***ing idiots?

People are f***ing idiots?

It’s on Labour to give people a reason to NOT vote for Reform/Tory.

People are f***ing idiots?

I don’t think that explains why in July voters in Rotherham voted Labour, they have never at any time previously voted for a party led by Nigel Farage, but if there was a general election now they would likely vote Reform.

Unless being a **** idiot is a intermittent problem which changes every six months?

I put it to you my dear Watson that something might have occurred in the last six months to make people change their voting preferences. The occupancy of Downing Street maybe?

The foxhunting in jaywick unfortunately is a victim of class warfare. Its fine to do it with foxhounds whilst on a horse and drinking sherry (incidentally it was amusing how he went for a “pint” vs the traditional sherry/port) but not with bully xls whilst mounted on surrons with a can of stella.

Its political correctness gone mad.

That is a superb analogy!..

I’m totally going to modify it and steal it!

I don’t think that explains why in July voters in Rotherham voted Labour, they have never at any time previously voted for a party led by Nigel Farage, but if there was a general election now they would likely vote Reform.

Have you seen polling data to support this?

You mentioned earlier that you believed voters in Clacton would return Farage with a greater majority, but no one seems to have polling evidence to support that.

Ernie – I don’t know how to explain it any better. SNP do not “offer a radical alternative” Labour could do exactly what the SNP do. Call him out

Yes I am aware that the SNP do not offer a radical alternative, except maybe independence – would you class that as a radical departure from the status quo?

But I don’t understand why you keep offering Scotland as an example of how to deal with Nigel Farage/Reform UK. Firstly Reform UK is a strongly unionist party which by definition will automatically make them less popular in Scotland than in the rest of the UK, before you even start calling out Farage.

Secondly Scotland doesn’t have the same level of immigrants and ethnic minorities for Nigel Farage to scapegoat as the rest of the UK.

And thirdly Scotland is not an independent sovereign nation so much of the blame for the inevitable failures of society are placed on the shoulders of the Westminster government, rather than the SNP, although they obviously don’t get off scot-free, no pun intended.

If you really want to look at a region of the UK which has successfully fought off Nigel Farage then the obvious contender is London. It doesn’t have any of the peculiarities which Scotland has with regards to the rest of the UK but yet it represents a pretty hostile landscape for Nigel Farage.

Is this because London politicians have been calling out Nigel Farage in the same as you claim the SNP has? I don’t think so, there are other factors that come into play.

Btw for clarity I one hundred percent agree with you that Nigel Farage should called out for the bigot and racist that he is, that is absolutely vital imo. But unlike you I don’t think it is enough, people also need to be offered a political party which they feel they can trust.

Did the conservatives even stand a candidate in Rotherham?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2024/uk/constituencies/E14001452

It seems like The conservative lost most ground to UKIP/EDL/Combat18 or whatever they call themselves these days.

I’m intrigued by JD Vance, who may or may not be quite a smart cookie, in the right place at the right time.
A couple of his statements from a while ago describe the republican party as being for the “poorly paid, poorly educated” who want “someone to blame for their shitty lives”.

Maybe like Suella Braverman who claimed today on LBC that she’d visited the wall they built on the Italy/Turkey border. According to my map the shortest route is over 900 miles, but I guess she knows better.