New Internal Gearbox Design

I’m not particularly in to that sort of thing but this appears to answer a lot of big problems with previous designs

Interesting, annoyed couldn’t make it to Eurobike this year 👿

It looks very very tidy.

Nice!

No planetary gears in there (I guess because it hasn’t been designed to go in the middle of a wheel)but those teeth look quite square so shifting from ratio to ratio might be a bit clunky!

One thing I don’t understand about gearbox design, is that they always feel the need to have loads of gears. 600% is a massive range on this new design, surely most current set ups range from 1:1 to 3:1 at most.

I’m sure a system with just say 8 gears for a proportionately reduced cost and weight would be perfect for most people’s needs.

Personally, I’d be happy with a system with just 3 gears, up, down and along! If it was cheap, light and reliable it would be amazing.

One thing I don’t understand about gearbox design, is that they always feel the need to have loads of gears. 600% is a massive range on this new design, surely most current set ups range from 1:1 to 3:1 at most.

It’s not really, 22-34 is 0.647
36-11 is 3.273

3.273 / 0.647 = 5.0 (500%)

And even I can spin out that setup and run out of gears on the uphills. So it’s only marginaly more than that.

about freakin time!

well once the price comes down

Yep I’d have one.

Already in love with my Helius AM, adding a gearbox to it (although I cant obviously add one to mine) would be something I would be very intrested in it. I ran a Hammerschmitd for a bit and was very impressed with it, although limited.

660% seems good to me, lazy arse on the ups and plenty of gears on the downs.

Sorry but numpty question…how does it drive the back wheel 😕

I can’t see any chain or anything…what am I missing (this coming from someone who has always been confused by gears I can’t see) 🙂

Chain, will look like a single speed.

Guess their not showing the drive side at the moment.

Leistungsmesser für alle ab Werk?: Mess-Technik für eine Handvoll Euro

video here

Lots more pics and words (in german) here:

Leistungsmesser für alle ab Werk?: Mess-Technik für eine Handvoll Euro

Ah, so there is a chain then. Why the cage at the back? 😕

Why the cage at the back?

To take up the slack in the chain during the suspension movement

Looks very interesting.

Appears to address the all-the-weight-at-the-back issue you get with hub gears.

Will this need some sort of chain tensioner to allow for suspension movement?

Edit: Too slow

To take up the slack in the chain during the suspension movement

Oh right…that figures. I shall think up another stupid question and be back in a minute 🙂

EDIT: I’m not asking stupid questions deliberately…they’re not stupid questions to me if you know what I mean.

kimbers, you snooze, you lose 😛

deadlydarcy – Member

Ah, so there is a chain then. Why the cage at the back?

keep the tension as the suspension moves?

Looks amazing to me. Appears to address all the issues that hub gears have.
Only thing that would put me off would be the twist-grip shifter. Although a trigger might get pretty annoying anyway when changing up or down through all those gears.

That’s bloody marvellous.
Interesting that Nicolai are now dropping their Rohloff-derived G-boxx design.

Must. buy. Lottery. Ticket.

Next step is to get a pivot around the output shaft so it can run a belt-drive…
(although a hardatail with a Pinion box could)

I like it. Just needs someone to decide on the frame fitment and everyone stick wit it now though. Would prefer electronic shifting too to get rid of the cables and just have some buttons on the bars.

Not too bad 2.6kg vs 1.8kg for an Alfine.

Looks interesting.

it’s a pity they never went that little bit extra and had concentric chain stays and the Nicolai “COR” iirc drop out system like they have on the Nucleon AM/TFR doing away with the chain tensioner.
Still looks the dogs though and will be a lot cheaper than the same bike with GBOXX, I hope?

Very neat, a proper, well thought out gearbox at last. A carbon h/tail frame built to take a ‘box like that would be a cracker.

i like it, it just needs to lose a few gears…

(about 12)

I can’t wait to read the patent on that …call me sad

Lose 8-10 gears and some weight. Can you imagine how well it rides with the weight low in the middle of the bike instead of the back?

I want a sturdy 5″ forked aluminum HT with one of those ASAP [starts saving].

must check this out when I get home

Pinion did have a hardtail built up to test.

In the meantime info from the Pinion.eu website:

When will the Pinion P-1 become available?
Our goal is to provide our customers with a well-engineered, high-quality and market-ready product that will last a long time. At present, we are in the middle of the test phase. Only once we have successfully completed testing, we will release the gear system for series production. What’s more, when the system will become available to end customers will depend greatly on the bike manufacturers, because they will first of all have to develop frames the gear system can be fitted to. Our planned date for the start of production is sometime during the course of 2011. Bikes fitted with the Pinion gear system will then be available for purchase a short time later.

Which bike manufacturers will offer bikes with the Pinion P-1? Where can I buy the gear system?
We’re currently holding talks with a number of bike manufacturers. As soon as decisions have been made and contracts signed, we will post a list of those manufacturers who will be offering bikes with our Pinion P-1 gear system on our website. You’ll then be able to buy these bikes from specialist bike shops or through the respective manufacturer.

How much will the gear system cost?
Owing to the fact that the gear system can not readily be retrofitted to an existing frame, it will initially be made available only in new, fully assembled bikes. The pricing of such bikes is a matter for each respective manufacturer. As a component manufacturer, we have little influence on the price demanded from the end customer. However, what we can now already say for certain is that the P-1 gear system is a piece of engineering that bears what is essentially a quality mark, “Made in Germany”, and that will be found in high-quality, up-market bikes.

Can I as an end customer buy the gear system myself as a separate retrofit assembly?
Owing to the fact that the gear system can not readily be retrofitted to an existing frame, we will initially be working with bike manufacturers who will develop a new frame specifically to match this gearing.

In what countries will I be able to buy bikes fitted with the Pinion gear system?
This will essentially depend on the countries in which the bike manufacturers market their products. As a component manufacturer, we have little influence on this.

What is the weight of the P-1 gearbox?
In its present form, the P-1, including chainwheel, without cranks weights approx. 2.7 kg.

Will it be any lighter by the time it goes into production?
That will depend on how its development progresses. Our absolute priority is to ensure the system is reliable and durable.

How does the gear system work?
The system is a spur gear unit and has two stages: a 3-speed and a 6-speed stage. The 3-speed stage has wide-spaced ratios (like the front chainwheels of derailleur gears), while the 6-speed stage has close-spaced ratios (like the cassette of a derailleur system). The 18 speeds have no overlap and are the result of multiplying the two stages.

Will there be lighter versions, versions with different numbers of speeds/ratio spacings?
Before we start thinking about different versions, we need to complete development of this system through to the series production stage. We’re talking about a new technology here, that’s still got to step up to the starting block. As with any kind of technology, we will continue to develop this system in the coming years.

Will the system also be available with a lever gearchange?
We’re thinking about it, but it would mean going down a whole new avenue of development, so we’ll be kicking off with twist shifter first.

Can the gear system be fitted to a carbon frame?
In principle, the system can also be fitted to a carbon frame. That said, the amount of development work required would be quite considerable, which is why we won’t be looking at this until the next stage of development.

How is the gear system integrated into the frame of the bike?
Instead of a bottom bracket, the frame of a bike designed for the P-1 has a mounting bracket that is welded in as an integral part of the frame. The gear system is then bolted to this mounting bracket. Can the gear system be fitted to a steel or titanium frame? Yes, the only requirement is that the mounting bracket is made of the same material as the frame, because it has to be welded to it. The gear system is mounted to this bracket as described here.

Can the gear system also be installed in other types of bike (recumbents, folding bikes, etc.)?
It’s possible, of course. The installation specifications can be applied to many different classes of bike. Whether or not it will be done is a matter for the bike manufacturers.

Will there also be a version that uses a toothed belt?
It is in principle feasible to replace the chain with a toothed belt, but it would mean fitting the gear unit with an appropriate pulley. We will be trying out a toothed belt as an alternative mode of transmission and will offer it if we find it really works well. Fitting a toothed belt would, however, mean that the bike frame would have to be able to be opened at the triangle formed by the seat tube, the chain stays and the seat stays.

Will the system need oil changes?
The gears run in a sealed oil bath. The tests we are currently carrying out include trying out various oils to see how they impact on the gear’s running characteristics and stability. We will specify oil-change intervals based on the results of these tests. What is already clear is that the oil won’t need changing very often (around once a year or every 10,000 km) and that oil changes will be simple to carry out.

Can I test ride the gear system or help you develop it by acting as a test rider?
Our prototypes are being ridden by Pinion test riders. Unfortunately, we’re not able to provide prototypes for test riding and we currently have no need for any additional test riders.

(Yes, that’s Joe Breeze)

another pic:

Will the system need oil changes?
The gears run in a sealed oil bath. The tests we are currently carrying out include trying out various oils to see how they impact on the gear’s running characteristics and stability. We will specify oil-change intervals based on the results of these tests. What is already clear is that the oil won’t need changing very often (around once a year or every 10,000 km) and that oil changes will be simple to carry out.

Think i’d be more concerned with the main crank shaft/BB bearing life. Many many designs of BB bearing have fallen foul of uk riding conditions. Replacement bearings every 6 month may get quite expensive on a unit like that. Must be weird to watch the cranks go round at one speed and the sprocket at another 🙂

Must be weird to watch the cranks go round at one speed and the sprocket at another

Not much different to watching a hub-geared bike…
Agree about the BB bearings etc.

Little more detail (and pics I nicked) on mtbr

the engineer in me doesn’t fancy that

love it!

Looks nice and tidy.

Tried Alfine 8 (documented elsewhere) but don’t like the large (r than derailleur) and inconsistent jump in ratios, considered an 11 but there seems far too many failures, now looking at dropping a Rohloff in the back of my RIP9, like the 14 gears and even jumps.

But this, this is a step up and a step in the right direction. Less un-sprung weight, better C of G, loads of gears (you don’t have to use all 18, just use what you want) and therefore flexibility, compact and dare I say better looking when the crank and chain ring run on the same axle. Only problem is the small wheels 😉

but the gears will be sequential – yes?

if you’re in 14th, and suddenly want 5th (a realistic scenario), you’ll have to click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click your way there.

deraillerurrers, we all hate them, but with a front mech you’re only 1 click away from a much easier gear.

or have i got something wrong?

yes, they’ll be sequential, and grip-shift only at the mo. Which if its anything like the Rohly (which I suspect it will be) is a much better get-out-of-jail option.

Scenario: You’re tanking along in a high gear, suddenly round a sharp corner you’re faced with thick mud/steep climb/red traffic light. You grind/skid/crash to a stop. On your derailleur equipped bike, you’re scuppered. With a Rohly and presumably this, one twist and you’ve dropped 3 or 4 gears. Another one and you’re another 3 gears down. One more for luck and away you spin. Perfect.

ahwiles – but the gears will be sequential – yes?

if you’re in 14th, and suddenly want 5th (a realistic scenario), you’ll have to click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click your way there.

deraillerurrers, we all hate them, but with a front mech you’re only 1 click away from a much easier gear.

or have i got something wrong?

You’re slightly wrong, a click on your front mech and you’ll only go down 3 ratios, so with your scenario (requiring a 9 ratio change) you’ll still be pressing away with your right hand and trying to spin the cranks to get the gears to switch so you will most likely grind (literally) to a halt. The one thing I really liked with Alfine (and Rohloff and presumably Pinion) as ir_banditois has pointed out, is stationary shifting. It’s surprising how much you make use of that function.

I can’t wait to read the patent on that …call me sad

Here ya go

In German 🙁
But the pictures start at page 50 🙂

I like that a lot, I run 3 bikes currently the summer full susser with normal derailleur transmission, a hardtail with an Alfine and a Nicolai full suss with Rohloff. Each has their good and bad points. If this new set up had a trigger shift then it would be just about perfect.

As far as BB bearings go, the 2 full sussers have standard crappy outboard bearings that last 6-12 months and the hardtail has an older style inboard SKF BB that has proved unbreakable