New 120mm Steel HT frame – Latitude or 456?

Hoping to buy a steel HT frame for riding 120mm forks mainly around S Wales trail centres, days in the brecons, exmoor, quantocks etc. and the odd trip up to Scotland’s trail centres.

Are the ‘classic’ (i.e. not Evo) 456s and Genesis Latitudes (853) completely differently riding bikes? I get the feeling that the 456 might suck for all day rides and the Latitude might be a bit steep for hairy, rocky descents or am I completely wrong? Or would I even notice?

I know the Latitude is the more ‘quality’ bike (and a bit lighter – Im going for 20″ frames) but I can get the 456 for £125 in my size, whereas I’m looking at £350 for the Lat and I have pretty much all the bits to build it already – I am on a bit of a budget. I can afford the Lat but it would be a stretch.

Any thoughts from owners would be great.

H

try and ride both back to back.

but, in general, get as good a tubeset as you can afford.

both bikes will have geometry that is pretty sorted, e.g. the 456 is a total copy of genesis2, so handles well, but in my experience is a harsh ride. steel should be skinny and whippy.

the genesis geo chart gives the HA as 69.5 with 25% sag on a 120mm fork, whereas the on one says it is 65.7 with a fully extended 150mm, so need a comparable ‘real world’ figure.

Rode the on-one on some all day rides, good fun

The HA on a ‘classic’ 456 is actually 67.5
see here

But yes, real world figure needed.

I had a big thing about the 456 retro paintjob, loved the way it looked. Might have to go with that then maybe change in the future to something lighter and nicer?

Is the Latitude noticeably steeper and more XC-y?

H

The HA on a ‘classic’ 456 is actually 67.5

with a fully extended 120mm fork, as opposed to the 150mm figure. if we assume that 30mm of travel gives 1.8 degrees of difference to HA, then a 25% sagged 120mm fork will be 30mm less, and therefore the 456 will be 69.3 deg i.e. pretty much the same as the latitude; when you look at the tube lengths and so on, then the bikes are much the same.

then it comes down to price, tubes and paint. 853 rides nicerer, but attracts a 200 quid premium. it’s your cash.

I got a 456 to replace a Soul as I was on a budget. there are pros and cons to each but negligible and won’t ruin your riding. IMO the 456 has a longer pedigree than the latitude. I am biased but save your money and get the 456, 200 pounds is a lot of money and doesn’t get you 200 pounds of improvement, just brand appeal and a better paint job

And a lighter frame made from a better tube set, tapered steerer compatibility, better chainring and tyre clearance. Oh – and a better paint finish. 😉

http://www.thebikechain.co.uk/Sanderson-Breath-Blue-LTD-18-201111280115/
http://sanderson-cycles.com/content/sanderson-breath
£175(!) from TBC, rides ace, pingy, and that blue is a grower of a colour…from table on the Sanderson page, my 120mm Fox’s give @ 69* head angle.

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Where did the singletrack go?[/url] by matt_outandabout[/url], on Flickr

Love the look of that Sanderson and am sorely tempted, however they only have 18″ left and I’m not compromising on frame size (need 20), done that before and I just end up resenting a nice frame.

Will the 456/Lat weight difference be noticeable on climbs?

Hoping to put fairly lightweight gear on it like:
120mm dual air rebas
Mavic xc717, XT hubs and 2.2 crossmarks
Full slx group (triple) and brakes
Lightweight bits.

Any ideas on rough weight? I’m aiming to keep as close to 26lbs as poss…

I get the feeling that the 456 might suck for all day rides

You would be entirely wrong. My current bike is a 20″ 456, previously had an 18″, both with 130mm Revs. Been to the Alps, Wales, country pootles, Mayhem, they’re a fab do it all bike.

I must admit that I do have a second hand Altitude frame in the garage waiting to be built up, but I bought that because it was a good deal and I was seduced by the 853 sticker…

[edit]depending what I decide to do, I may therefore have a 20″ 456 or a 19″ Altitude available soon…

Ok good stuff. What does your 456 weigh?

Good luck with the altitude, great bike.

Sat on 19 alt, still a bit cramped for me! 🙁

Love the look of that Sanderson and am sorely tempted, however they only have 18″ left and I’m not compromising on frame size (need 20), done that before and I just end up resenting a nice frame.

Have you seen the geometry figures for the breath? I had a 20″ (or whatever it is) inbred, now ride an 18″ breath, they’re very long frames.

And they are mint. 😀

Have a look at a Decade Versa – I find it far more ‘forgiving’ on a longer ride than the 456. 456 is very stiff.

Why not get the Carbon 456 its pretty much the same as the steel one but half the weight

What does your 456 weigh?

I honestly couldn’t tell you, sorry. If I remember I’ll get the scales out tonight.

For 120mm fork, what about a normal Inbred rather than a 456, aren’t they (fractionally) lighter? The 456 might be a bit over-burled.

beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that, but those things hit every branch on the way out of the ugly tree IMO.

Custom butted, Hand-built Reynolds 853 Cro-mo tubeset / Fillet brazed / UK-specific design

http://www.ukbikesdepot.com/m15b0s717p5232/SARACEN_Kili_Flyer_Cro-Mo_Mens_Mountain_Bike_Frame_2011-_Aqua

£350

ur bik is saricin tho innit? 😉

The lack of fancy tubing and apparent ‘Overweight’ 456 put me off massively, and there was an element of brand snobbery that put me off the 456, especially as it was to replace my much loved Cotic Soul.

However once you’ve built it up the weight difference is barely noticeable but the extra weight gives it extra confidence on the downhills.

IMO the weight of the bike as a limiting factor is less than skill / fitness.

So why not the evo, too slack?

I think so, yes. Might be wrong but I have to make a decision soon.

Are those 853 Prince Alberts still available at a bargain price?

Will the 456/Lat weight difference be noticeable on climbs?

certainly less than a pound, maybe only half a pound – I’m not sure but it won’t be much. Latitude is 4.7lb in a 17.5″ I think, my 19″ is under 5 anyway, not bad considering the 44mm HT is a fair chunk of weight. worth it tho. so, no, you won’t notice it unless you’re a leg-shaving whippet )

it’s not weight thats the issue, it’s the cheap pipes that need to be thicker and therefore don’t zing nicely.

when I had one the dropouts were made of cheese too. in fact several of us had them and we used a communal threaded bar to bend the hangers straight on a regular basis.

not a bad bike, but not as nice as a well designed frame in the fancier, yet more expensive tubesets.

Second the length of the Sanderson. I am 6′ on 18″ and it is noticeably longer than my old Orange medium/18″ on which I was at top end of size for.
You are welcome for a spin if near central Scotland on mine.
(and that Saracen looks luvvverly)

I have had a 456 for about 18 months and am still ambivalent about it.Like you I was mainly motivated by cost but am beginning to wish I had waited ’til I had more money and bought something that inspired me more. There is nothing particularly wrong with it, poor paint and general finish excepted, but it just doesn’t get me gasping to get out on it. And despite what people say weight does matter. My previous HT was a Scandal which was considerably lighter. I really notice the extra 2-3 lbs by the end of a long day. OK I am not as fit as some but more weight = more effort.

hazzeryoda – assuming I do build up the Altitude, would you be interested in the 456 frame? Glittery brown, in good nick.

I think you’re Brizzle-ish based, I’m in Cirencester (and work in Brizzle) so not miles away. If you want to sling a leg over it before it get’s stripped apart you’re welcome to too.

that Kili flyer looks reet smert.

I’ve got an Altitude, precursor to the Latitutde but without the 44mm headtube and the seatstay finger bridge. Run it with 120mm forks, and it’s built up pretty light yet quite tough. It’s an excellent bike, it’s definitely not too steep for hairier descents (mine has been chucked down quite a few for sure), and it makes me smile every time I ride it. In fact, I’ll go so far as to say that IMO it’s the best hardtail I’ve ever ridden, and that’s a lot of them in 17 years or so of riding.

The 456’s aren’t bad, but having owned a 29er Inbred myself previously, I can vouch for the poor quality paint and the weight of the things. 456’s are closer to 6lb than 5 iirc, and the Genesis is more like 4 1/2lb, so it will be 1lb or so heavier if that matters. Oh, and though they’re obviously popular for a reason, I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to anyone who really loves their 456, seems to me they’re good cos they’re cheap and better than anything else for sub £150 (same as my 29er Inbred was really IMO) rather than cos they’re good full stop.

That all said, that Saracen Kili Flyer at £350 above looks incredible for the money. Or at £300 there is the Cotic BFe which shares the same geometry as the amazing Soul (Genesis Latitude is pretty much the same too), but is cheaper and a bit heavier.

I like long frames, now have a Sanderson Life, am 6ft and run an 18″ frame with only a 70mm stem and it still feels plenty long enough.

pipedream scion £349 nice ride worth a look.

Why not get the Carbon 456 its pretty much the same as the steel one but half the weight

This was my first thought as well, especially as it’s within your original budget.

I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to anyone who really loves their 456

Ahem 🙂

+1 for the Pipedream suggestion.

I’ve had a Sirius since 2007 and absolutely love it. The Scion is the current vertical drop-out version.

There’s a comprehensive set of geometry figures on their website and, in the FAQ section (fork length section), a link to a good calculator that allows you to compare different frames in terms of stack and reach.

Definitely a Sanderon Life. The 456 is shit. Its like a riding a piece of dull masonry compared.

Ok I bought a barely used beefy brown 456 off eBay for 125 delivered with an unused on one smoothie headset. Bit of a bargain. At that price I will be able to give it a go and sell it on for a fair amount of what I paid for it if I end up resenting it.

See how it goes. Im a sucker for a bargain!

I just want to buy something and get riding while the sun is out, ive got all the bit ready to put on it you see… I think the bottom line here is just ride it and worry about it later.

Thanks all.
H

120mm steel HT you say?

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I’ve had a 456 and a Sanderson Life (the 853 version of the breath)

The 456 was very stiff for a steel bike, but without the complete rigidness/acceleration of an aluminium bike. I know the frame wasn’t flexing enough to affect acceleration, but it just never felt sprightly. I loved it for it’s handling, but it did feel like you had to keep pedaling to keep the speed up, where as some (XC race) bikes scream at you to pedal pedal pedal!

The Sanderson was very flexy in comparison. A lovely bike, but again I missed the zipp of an aluminum frame. It’s deffinately more of a ~100mm XC/all day/singletrack bike where the 456 was better at trail center type stuff.

I’m now waiting on my Chumba HX1 which I’m pinning my hopes on having the “pedal like a motherf***er” aluminium attitiude of my old Cannondale F500 had on level, twisty singletrack, combined with the “f*** it I’m taking THAT line” attitude of the 456 on decents. The Sanderson I replaced with a Swift.

You have the frame already? Oh for Pete’s sake man, just build it and ride it… 🙂

I only bought it about half an hr ago!!!