National photo IDs?

Almost every school kid in Scotland has an id card. In a lot of schools the youngscot card is what makes the school cashless. It also gets free bus travel and acts as proof of age.
We’re closer than you think to id cards.

Can someone educate me…what would be wrong with a national id card?

Two words “software implementation”. Our governments of whatever hue are unable to get an IT project in on time, on budget and (most importantly) fit for purpose.

frankly insane levels of CCTV and surveillance

Given that the effective CCTV is privately run for shopping centres and other enterprises, we can legislate this away. The council run schemes are ineffective if they are staffed at all due to funding cut-backs.

There is sufficient law in place to ensure that we would not need cameras, we just don’t fund the enforcement agencies well enough to allow the laws to function effectively.

NHS No. = DVLA No. = Passport No. = NI No. = FAC No. = Travel Pass No. = Library Card No.

That’s pretty much how it works here in Spain where ID cards are compulsory.

Almost every school kid in Scotland has an id card. In a lot of schools the youngscot card is what makes the school cashless. It also gets free bus travel and acts as proof of age.
We’re closer than you think to id cards.

This is true, and I hadn’t noticed how much mine use it.

I’m not a fan of national ID cards.

I’m also of the view that we’ve got NI no., UTI no., NHS no., then optional Passport No., driver licence no., council tax no., etc etc. As I understand it, places like Denmark are ‘one account’ for much of thier dealings with Government and this makes like simpler, fewer data stores to manage etc. I could get on board with that – but I suspect any merging of data would take decades, £billions and a few rich IT people when thier scheme fails…

There’s no point having ID cards if you don’t have to carry them all the time. There’s no point making you carry one unless the cops have the right to stop you to check that you are.
How much will the subsequent “ war on ID card fraud cost”?
Even thatcher was against I’d cards as they were “too German”.

That’s pretty much how it works here in Spain where ID cards are compulsory.

First they make the trains run on time, then they cut down bureaucracy, next they’ll be rounding up the gingers!

So very un-British!

Even thatcher was against I’d cards as they were “too German”.

Yes, someone earlier made the same comment, much of the anti-argument is that “That’s what those foreigners do”, of course it’s spoken as “anti-British” but the meaning is the same.

frankly insane levels of CCTV and surveillance

Yea, but almost none of it is probably operated by big brother?

It’s Marge in #42 with her Ring doorbell so she can post a photo of the forin youths (Amazon driver) acting suspiciously to nextdoor, and Dave in #63 who has 5 Huawei cameras hooked upto a NAS beaming video of his bike shed back to the CCP headquarters.

Our governments of whatever hue are unable to get an IT project in on time, on budget and (most importantly) fit for purpose.

Having worked in the Home Office on a project for Border Force I have first hand experience of this. The amount of money being paid for bang average BAe staff against what is being delivered is staggering.

Yea, but almost none of it is probably operated by big brother?

Your right, but that’s not to say that they can’t access it. There are 9 cameras on and in the building I work in. I’ve had the cops come for footage on a number of occasions – once to see if a camera on the front of the building had caught a passing car.

It’s ubiquitous, and we’re used to it, and there are stats (again I’ve no idea how accurate) that suggest that if you live in a city you get caught up to 30 times a day. and yet we’re not arguing about them, but something you’d keep in your wallet?

Oh yeah I fully understand that the technical challenge of a “one card for everything” would be beyond our ability to implement, and cost 10x original estimate before being binned….

But the fact is other countries have them (see Spain, above) and no-one is suggesting Spain is a police state. The argument that it’s a slippery slope is weak…you could argue that people having an NI number or UTR is a “slippery slope”….

Anyway, back to the original topic….I don’t see have you can have mandatory photo id’s to vote without having a national ID card.

.I don’t see have you can have mandatory photo id’s to vote without having a national ID card.

Yes, anyone can see that if you want voters to have ID, then you must provide them with a free easy to access ID service that can be used for that purpose, but this legislation says nothing of the sort, hence it’s obvious that the requirement for ID is to deter folks folks from voting. Any “democratic” party that decides that it’s only way to power is making sure that some folks don’t vote is of course anti-democratic and shouldn’t be on the ballot.

Pretty much any photo ID will work so you don’t need an additional one if you have say a photo driving licence.

Not true. Have a look at the list of acceptable IDs. The most striking contradiction is OAP bus pass vs Young person’s Travel card. One is acceptable, the other isn’t.

For a young-to-middle aged adult, the only practical options are passport or driving licence. A quick google suggests 17% of UK adults don’t have a passport, and 26% don’t have a driving licence. So of the ~49m registered voters, the number without ID is likely to be in the millions. Estimating how many of those are already having to rely on food banks and therefore are unable to afford to buy ID, is left as an exercise for the reader.

What does a person who’s medically unfit to drive do?
Or what if you’ve sent your drivers licence off for its 10-year renewal when an election’s called?

But surely we should be making it easier to vote, not erecting barriers?

This.

Even getting free ID, as theoretically available via the Local Authority (although I don’t think they’ve been allocated funds or time to organise this!) will require a time commitment which those working in long hours in low-paid jobs will be unable to spare.

Even if you have a passport or driving licence, if you’re not currently using it then how long will it take to find? I know exactly where mine is, and even I’d find it tempting to not bother in a safe seat. Not everybody is so organised, or so motivated to vote. A lot of people have swallowed the ‘they’re all the same so why bother?’ narrative. 🙁

What is the claimed justification for this?

Control. Exclusion.

It would work if we already had a compulsory national photo id card but that’s what foreigners do so we won’t be doing that

Just because another country does something doesn’t make it good.

I can’t see the problem. I’ve just looked on Wikipedia to see which countries require photo ID to vote. There’s quite a few!

Aside from anything else,

It’s November. Elections are in March. Hands up if this thread was the first anyone’s heard about it? And we’re going to need (assuming PhilO is on the money) “millions” of cards applied for, verified, printed and issued.

For a young-to-middle aged adult, the only practical options are passport or driving licence. A quick google suggests 17% of UK adults don’t have a passport, and 26% don’t have a driving licence. So of the ~49m registered voters, the number without ID is likely to be in the millions.

depending on your definition of middle aged, anyone ages 18 to late twenties needs to carry an ID around if they want to purchase an alcoholic drink or even enter an establishment that serves them, and its been that way for at least 10-15 years, so that probably covers everyone up to 40 or so.
Many of those – in my day at least – just got a provisional driving license even if they had no intention of even taking a lesson.

I can’t see the problem. I’ve just looked on Wikipedia to see which countries require photo ID to vote. There’s quite a few!

But what are the benefits? The electoral commission have said there has never been any evidence of significant voter fraud in UK elections. So why would you choose to do it? ‘Why not’ or ‘because x, y, z country does it’ aren’t very compelling reasons! Especially where there are downsides of excluding the large numbers of people who don’t have access to photo ID. Or maybe that’s the real reason for implementing it?

provisional driving license

They’re not free. Don’t ignore those who have little to spend and look of age early in life. Not everyone has an easy ride through their younger years.

Hands up if this thread was the first anyone’s heard about it?

Was discussed on here and more widely when the legislation was pushed through.

https://www.computerweekly.com/blog/Computer-Weekly-Editors-Blog/Zombified-Govuk-Verify-is-officially-dead-so-whats-next

the Tories know that there is a much higher % of labour voters than tory voters without photo ID.

I’m not saying that’s not true but why wouldn’t a labour voter be arsed to go and pick up some voter ID?

I’m not saying that’s not true but why wouldn’t a labour voter be arsed to go and pick up some voter ID?

Because they all cost time and money and it’s money you’ll be spending on something you don’t need for anything else?

If there’s no cost (to the citizen) AND no obligation to carry one then I’m happy for the Govt to introduce ‘ID cards’ and require their presentation when voting – otherwise, against.

I worked as a poll clerk and have had a few people in who don’t appear to be who they claim but as long as they state the right details, I have no challenge. Often it’s appears to be young parents sending teens because they can’t be bothered to leave the house.
I guess it’s their choice to delegate but it still doesn’t feel right. On the flip side, I’ve also had people come and ask me how they should vote…

It is worrying how you seem to have no idea of your responsibilities when working in the polling station. In this circumstance you need to ask the prescribed questions and, if you remain suspicious, you need to flag to Returning Officer immediately, they will advise if police need to be called. Your Presiding Officer can also issue a Tendered ballot to allow a vote to be cast but to be investigated prior to being counted.

I guess it’s their choice to delegate

It is not their choice to delegate, it results in personation and that is a criminal offence.

You see, that’s just regurgitating what is always said but I don’t understand what it actually means? I’m genuinely interested, as other European countries seem to have them (I think) and I don’t think their citizens seem more oppressed than us.

Without heading down a Godwinish rabbit hole, guess who introduced ID cards in Germany?

If there’s no cost (to the citizen) AND no obligation to carry one then I’m happy for the Govt to introduce ‘ID cards’ and require their presentation when voting – otherwise, against.

Scope creep is how all of things work. Initial legislation is “it’s only for voting” then is slow gets increased to exclude you from more services then it’s a requirement to carry where you can be guilty of existing. It’s a stay in your box strategy. Administrators love rules and control.

Without heading down a Godwinish rabbit hole, guess who introduced ID cards in Germany?

Franco introduced them here, too. But TBH it’s hard to feel opressed by a Spanish ID card – I find the UK’s passive acceptance of so many radars and surveillance cameras to be far more sinister and worrying.

Meh, i won’t be voting anyway.

The current system is flawed.

I can walk into any town hall/community centre/libary, give Dorris a name and address, have that crossed off a list and them i’m allowed to vote.
Theres nothing to stop me driving around the area and voting 100 times on that day.
(apart from the lengthy prison sentence if i get caught).

Putting some control in place to validate a persons id is completely sensible.
I have to do that if i pick up a parcel from the post office.

If that needs to be photo based is questionable, but the proposal sounds sensible.

They’re not free. Don’t ignore those who have little to spend and look of age early in life. Not everyone has an easy ride through their younger years.

Not free, that is true. But they were 100% necessary if you wished to have an alcoholic drink (or buy cigarettes) ever. Ok that isn’t every young person but it likely covers a good portion.

£20 I think it was back then, its £34 now, was the simplest and cheapest way to go about this. If a gov ID card would undercut this price especially for city dwellers who have no interest or practical finances for driving or flying abroad.

BTW, I dont support ID cards for voting, but I am in favour of a photo ID of some kind for everyone.

depending on your definition of middle aged, anyone ages 18 to late twenties needs to carry an ID around if they want to purchase an alcoholic drink or even enter an establishment that serves them, and its been that way for at least 10-15 years, so that probably covers everyone up to 40 or so.

And important distinction to know, is that there is no legal requirement to carry any ID to buy alcohol though; it is the legal responsibility of the retailer to not sell alcohol to those under age. The Licensing Act 2003 requires retailers/venues to be able to verify the age of any person who the ‘responsible person’ thinks may be under the age of 18, so obvs some sort of ‘verified’ photo ID is a good idea if you don’t want to get turned away. But believe me; I see loads of underage looking kids (especially girls) buying alcohol in all sorts of places, so enforcement is clearly patchy.

The current system is flawed.

Is it?

I thought we’d established that UK voter fraud is vanishingly small, and that while you can describe a scenario where someone might try to skew the polls locally by driving from station to station stealing the odd vote, there’s no evidence that this actually happens here and such actions would be spotted when the real voter truns up and they’ve already been crossed off, it’s not fool proof but we have a system that serves it’s intended purpose already.

If voter fraud was a genuinely concerning issue the Tories would be looking at postal votes first, but demographically postal voters tend ot be older, and older people tend to vote tory so that’s not their focus…

The aim here isn’t to make our elections more “Secure” the aim is to deter/exclude those less likely to vote conservative, Labour and certainly Green party supporters are more likely to not have a Driver’s licence or a passport.

It’s a “Security measure” for a pretty much non-existant security problem, that just so happens to keep more of your oposition’s supporters away from the polls… Funny how a strugling government is suddenly keen on this as an idea again.

All I can see is ID checks slowing down polling as Clerks have to check everyone’s Passport/Driving licence, probably get in a bit of a muddle over what counts as valid, end up having to challenge people who don’t quite look like their ID.

Sadly it’s thin end of the wedge stuff, trying to shut lefties out of the polls to offset the damage done by Truss & Co. in preparation for a nail biter in 2024(ish)… Same old Tories.

What is the claimed justification for this? It can’t be to combat electoral fraud because even the electoral commision acknowledge that it is almost non existent.

Thats not actually what they say.  There’s a subtle but potentially important difference between “no evidence of large scale fraud” and “almost non existent”.  There are only a small number of investigations and only a tiny number of convictions (or cautions).  But the absence of evidence and evidence of absence are actually different things.  I don’t believe it is sufficiently big to fundamentally undermine democracy, but the current system is fundamentally insecure.  Can you imagine designing any systems for something which is technically fundamentally important to both society and individuals’ rights and making the basic principle that people are who they claim to be based on their name and address with no documentation to support it.

However, I’m also sure that even the tories haven’t intentionally conjured this up as a way to stop people they don’t like voting.  I completely believe they are so disconnected from the realities of their ordinary citizens they probably can’t imagine the challenges it brings, but I suspect that its fundamentally driven by a desire that to qualify for NHS services you should prove* your are eligible, to qualify for a council house you should prove you are eligible, to get your kids into a good school you should prove you are eligible etc.

However, the Scottish free travel for <21’s is an amazing example of how you can have a great idea and implement it in a way that makes it poorer than it should have been.  Presumably in order to prevent some element of fraud the powers that be decided to implement a fairly rigorous id process to get the necessary travel card.  That’s great, middle class kids with passports or parents who can be arsed to jump through the on-line hoops etc get their kids free bus travel anywhere in Scotland.  Meanwhile a kid who is clearly only 11 (so qualifies) will not get a pass if his parent is too smacked up, drunk, lazy, busy working 3 jobs, trying to dodge the social worker, caring for an elderly relative, not well educated themselves to read/follow the process etc – and so that kid, who perhaps needs free travel more than any to give them a chance to connect with new school mates outside school, or reach a library, etc misses out.  Now we manage to automatically issue NI numbers to everyone and (certainly used to) send them a card.  It strikes me we can do it when with zero friction when there is tax to retrieve from it, but make it a PITA when its the other way round!

*typically anyone I’ve ever heard say these things are the same people I hear complain about bureaucracy and management waste in the NHS; not realising that the costs of eliminating say 0.1% of NHS costs on people who wouldn’t qualify are far less than the cost of the admin to prove the other 99.9% do, not to mention the costs for those who delay treatment because they fear the access barrier and end up with much more serious (=expensive) long-lasting issues.

I can walk into any town hall/community centre/libary, give Dorris a name and address, have that crossed off a list and them i’m allowed to vote.
Theres nothing to stop me driving around the area and voting 100 times on that day.

You’d have to give Doris a name and address which is on that specific list, you’d need to know the specific local polling station assigned to the address in question.

How many polling stations are there for a given ward? There’s “nothing to stop you” other than it being a massive logistical effort for, if you’re lucky, one or two extra votes for a candidate. If you were intent on committing voter fraud there’s surely better ways of going about it.

Plus, what cookeaa said.

Presumably in order to prevent some element of fraud the powers that be decided to implement a fairly rigorous id process

I’ve got to wonder, how much does a system like that cost compared with the revenue earned from preventing fraudulently free travel by 22-year olds?

Because they all cost time and money and it’s money you’ll be spending on something you don’t need for anything else?

So depending how much money that’s fair …BUT I still don’t get the can’t be arsed?
It makes it sound like the typical labour voter is apathetic vs some Tory voting biddy??

But surely we should be making it easier to vote, not erecting barriers?

I’m all in favour of testing people know and understand what they are voting for .. if we could figure out a way
How many people voted for Boris without a clue of what he stood for? (and I still have no idea what he REALLY stood for other than populist policy if anything) “Get Brexit done?” …

How many polling stations are there for a given ward? There’s “nothing to stop you” other than it being a massive logistical effort for, if you’re lucky, one or two extra votes for a candidate. If you were intent on committing voter fraud there’s surely better ways of going about it.

With a preplanned route you could probably do 3 polling stations an hour? Avoiding the busy morning and evennig times. How many different polling stations are there in a constituency?

in 2019 5 constituencies were decided by 150 votes or fewer.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/general-election-2019-marginality/

A minivan of hardcore political activists could pull that off with some planning I think.

The hard part would be aquiring a list of people and addresses in each location who matched the race and gender and who you were 100% certain wouldn’t vote themselves.

I thought we’d established that UK voter fraud is vanishingly small, and that while you can describe a scenario where someone might try to skew the polls locally by driving from station to station stealing the odd vote, there’s no evidence that this actually happens here and such actions would be spotted when the real voter truns up and they’ve already been crossed off, it’s not fool proof but we have a system that serves it’s intended purpose already.

I don’t think anyone actually knows how big the issue is.  If I was going to commit personation I’d do it with identities I knew were unlikely to vote so that it would go undetected.  Doing it on a scale where you could skew results would require a very concreted and coordinated effort.  Its certainly not inconceivable that students who are legitimately registered to vote in two places but should only actually vote in one, might cast two ballots (simple ID checks would not prevent this), or that someone may register to vote in an area where they technically don’t qualify (e.g. if I live in a safe seat I might register at my parents address where my vote might count more), again ID checks won’t necessarily solve that.

To be clear, I don’t think I want ID cards at all, and don’t think they are a good solution for polling but we shouldn’t be quite so confident that our current system is actually robust.

You’d have to give Doris a name and address which is on that specific list, you’d need to know the specific local polling station assigned to the address in question.

And the more you do it the higher risk I turn up in the evening and get told I already voted.

If you were intent on committing voter fraud there’s surely better ways of going about it.

Postal voting would be my starter for ten. However since thats used heavily by older voters guess what? No action!

Or if I am paying for all these people to go around and vote for someone I might as well just give the money to the winning candidate and bribe them to do stuff I like.