Molgrips car #4 – A New Hope

Well I know that the local specialists charge £400 +VAT for a refurbed ECU, and the dealer will be £1000-£1500.

I do wonder what we/you’d do if you got one… and had the exact same issue…

Why the hell are you trying to diagnose a problem when you’re clearly not a mechanic or VAG/ECU specialist?! If the guy that should have fixed the problem made it worse you should have manned up at the time and got him to sort it out. Sounds like that’s too late now so if you don’t want to sell it as is you need to bite the bullet and hand the keys to someone who knows what they’re doing.

Sometimes you need to accept your limitations and allow someone else to sort things out for you. You appear to be staggering from one half arsed attempt to another.

I work in IT and fix things for a living. A large proportion of the work I do involves listening to well intentioned people tell me what they think the problem is. These people generally have absolutely no idea what the problem is or how to diagnose it, let alone fix it. They can of course describe the symptoms well, which helps develop a problem statement. Once I’ve listened to them I tend to take an analytical approach to the problem based on a clear problem statement, a good understanding of how the system works (or should work), and several years of very appropriate experience.

You might think you’re helping by trying to work out this issue but what you really need to do (IMO of course) is take a step back and let someone who knows what they’re doing look at it.

I do wonder what we/you’d do if you got one… and had the exact same issue..

Give up!

Sounds like that’s too late now so if you don’t want to sell it as is you need to bite the bullet and hand the keys to someone who knows what they’re doing.

Lol.. find me someone and I will! I also work in IT, and I don’t like it when people clearly guess at what the problem might be and ask me to hand over thousands of pounds, when their logic is full of flaws. At least the garage yesterday were honest and open, outlined their reasoning and between us we drew conclusions.

Garages are not full of experts who understand all the intricacies of ECU systems. They are full of people who like to change bits and charge you for it on the off-chance it’ll work.

He tried that yesterday

The bloke charged him £156 to say “dunno mate”

Tonyd speaks a lot of sense.

You need to figure out a budget; 500 max then go to a independent with the risk that they may not have all the tools/info available to them that VW would.

If you can afford 1k, then go to a dealer. If not, sell to somebody you won’t feel bad selling a faulty car to; we buy any car etc.

Lol.. find me someone and I will!

Well, several suggestions have already been made in this thread. Have you acted on any of them yet?

I also work in IT, and I don’t like it when people clearly guess at what the problem might be and ask me to hand over thousands of pounds, when their logic is full of flaws.

From what you’ve said their logic is most likely based on your logic. It seems to me you’re actively directing their investigations. You need to tell them what the symptoms are and let them think it through for themselves. If your logic is flawed but you’re convincing enough you’ll waste everyones time and your money.

Garages are not full of experts who understand all the intricacies of ECU systems.

Correct, which is why you need to find a garage with an expert to diagnose your problem. Be that an ECU expert or a VAG main dealer/specialist.

They are full of people who like to change bits and charge you for it on the off-chance it’ll work.

Some are, some aren’t. Like everything in life a given problem isn’t necessarily cut and dried, if I’m fixing something at work sometimes I’ll make a change knowing it won’t fix the issue, but that it will change behaviour in some way that might help me narrow the problem down a little. Cars these days are complex systems so some narrowing might be necessary, unfortunately changes generally mean new parts. This is why you need someone with specific knowledge and experience – to reduce the amount of changes required (and cost) before the problem is found.

The guy that looks after my 10 year old BMW is a BMW specialist. If it develops a problem I don’t strip the engine and try to fix it, I call him and describe the symptoms. Sometimes he’ll tell me to bring it in, sometimes he won’t. The last time we spoke I told him about a funny noise when I push the clutch in, sounds like somethings going to break. He listened to it, sucked his teeth, and told me it’s an expensive fix but other than the noise should be OK for a few years yet so not to worry. Not everyone is trying to rip you off.

The thing is I’ve lost all confidence in garages over the years. So I’m going to learn as much as I can myself. I don’t see a problem with this. If I talk to an expert and they really do know their stuff I’ll listen to them. But I’m not going to blindly hand over cash any more. I don’t have enough for that. The suggestions from yesterday’s garage were either a new ECU, or a new clutch and DMF for the gearbox problems at a cost of a grand, and a very low confidence of a fix. Er yeah thanks but no thanks.

Anyway, I’ve emailed the dodgy geezer, who wants to see what I wrote?

So I’m going to learn as much as I can myself. I don’t see a problem with this. If I talk to an expert and they really do know their stuff I’ll listen to them. But I’m not going to blindly hand over cash any more.

Anyway, I’ve emailed the dodgy geezer, who wants to see what I wrote?

1. What are you going to do then ?

2. Sure… why not 🙂

Fair enough, it’s your life. Sounds like false economy to me though.

there’s an ecu VAG specialist in barry that has a good reputation.
heck if you want to “do it yourself” go on ebay and buy a VAGCOM cable and a copy of VAGCOM and play away at your hearts content. it’ll even tell you what condition your electric window winder motors are in.

you work in I.T I’m sure you can figure it out.

“1. What are you going to do then ?”

from what i can gather his forward plan for ring fencing the unicorn is to drive slowely and endure slow gear shifts , wafting through life on a sea of contentment – while towing his caravan 😀

there’s an ecu VAG specialist in barry that has a good reputation.

Yeah, Permoveo, they are the people who supplied the ECU!

not them they’re utter utter tosh do some homework!

before sending your car for impending doom

Home

Hi Cliff,

So after all this time I’ve been unable to sort out my car. I’ve had the engine and gearbox software updated, and it made no change. The ECU is still reporting a fault with the inlet manifold flap position sensory, short to ground, and the gearbox is still not working properly.

The error still persists with the flap disconnected, so that points to the wiring. But the wiring tests fine so it must be a fault with the replacement ECU. I’ve had the ECU flashed with new engine and gearbox software, still no change.

So, now we get to the difficult part. All the evidence I have says that the ECU did not need to be changed.

1) The unit was not obvioulsy damaged, and it was not in a place it could have sat in water
2) The new ECU did not fix the problem (I have a fault code report taken after the change, and it shows hundreds of errors still)
3) Permoveo told me that they had told you there was no fault, but you insisted on a new unit
4) Permoveo showed me their invoice to you, which was £400+VAT not the £750 you charged me. Their work order didn’t say anything about water damage, which they would have put down.
5) Removing the trailer control module fixed the issues instantly, except for this inlet manifold flap thing, which points to the original issues not being ECU related.

So my current problems are caused by the ECU swap, which was not necessary. I think therefore that I’m entitled to a refund based on the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. I’m out of pocket as follows:

£750 for the original unnecessary ECU
£256 worth of diagnostics from Permoveo and A1 Diagnostics in Cardiff
£250 for my own VCDS to investigate
A lot of time and effort

I’ll overlook the VCDS and my time, but I think it’s fair to ask for compensation for the other stuff and for either you to contact Permoveo for a replacement or give me £480 to do it myself. I’d prefer the latter of course.

Unless that was written on your solicitors headed paper, that will go straight in the bin.

The small claims court summons won’t though.

So you took it to other garages without confronting them that the problem is still there after they looked at it. and still willfully handed over more money that still didn’t fix the problem.
oh my days!

not them they’re utter utter tosh do some homework!

I didn’t choose them, dodgy geezer did.

I already called Welsh VW, they said it didn’t sound like a problem they could help with.

So you took it to other garages without confronting them that the problem is still there after they looked at it

No, I spent ages confronting the original guy, then I made him tell me who he’d used and I went round to see them several times. They didn’t want to help me because my contract isn’t with them after all, but they were quite willing to charge me loads of money to tell me the fault codes.

Good man… about sodding time… I’m still confused (unless i missed something) why you never took the car back to him and said “my car is more broken….please fix it” about 3 months ago…

Why did you pay him at all in fact ?

I paid him up front for the part. I have SMS logs of the months of entreating him to fix my car, and the fobbing off he gave me.

I should’ve done a number on him earlier, that’s for sure, but I have to be completely confident that I’m in the right otherwise my argument will crumble, and that means research.

Hi Molgrips,

Thanks for your email. I’ve considered your request and would refer you to the matter of Arkell vs Pressdram.

Love Cliff🙂

There’s the small matter of defrauding me by telling me the part cost more than it did. That’s hard to refute.

I have to be completely confident that I’m in the right otherwise my argument will crumble, and that means research

Your problem now is he can say

“it must be one of the other things/places you’ve taken it to that’s broken it…”

It’s not possible to go back in time…

Why did you pay him up front fella ? i forget now… but FFS, really ? Cash or Credit card ?

lol defrauding ..

no thats called business

you dont sell stuff for what you pay for it , you put a mark up on it for your time and effort.

if i buy a brick for 5 pounds – i aint selling it to you for 5 pounds. consumers price is brick + 20%.

it must be one of the other things/places you’ve taken it to that’s broken it…

I’ve got plenty of evidence I told him all about the issues at the time, before I took it to anywhere. Easy to dismiss that one.

Why did you pay him up front fella ?

I am (or was) a greenhorn.

you dont sell stuff for what you pay for it , you put a mark up on it for your time and effort.

No, you tell me what the part costs and then tell me your labour cost per hour.

Inlet manifold flap? If that means airflow meter, is quite a major input to the ECU. And as the wiring loom hasn’t been changed and the meter is ok, it sounds like the ECU you have been given simply isn’t matched to your car’s wiring loom – wrong model or year or variant or something.

I think I’d take Bamboo’s advice, get it to a VW garage, get the correct ECU & SW, accept that it will cost more than an independant.

Shame you didn’t get the old ECU back from Cliff the bodger.

ok and he told you 750 – as thats what the parts cost YOU not him.

you do know when you buy a pint of milk in the shop – its not the price the shop pays right ? – are they defrauding you also ?

No, you tell me what the part costs and then tell me your labour cost per hour

Don’t be daft…

I a garage buys in a part for £100 i don’t expect to get it for £100. I expect to pay £115-120.

Admittedly yours was proportionally more… but still, he’s got to make a living… parts in LBS’s are sold for more than they buy them in for arent they ?

Inlet manifold flap? If that means airflow meter, is quite a major input to the ECU. And as the wiring loom hasn’t been changed and the meter is ok, it sounds like the ECU you have been given simply isn’t matched to your car’s wiring loom – wrong model or year or variant or something.

It’s not the airflow meter, it’s basically a throttle valve that does one or two things, not sure. One is to shut off the air to the engine to ensure a smooth shudder-free shutdown, and the other may be to restrict airflow to increase EGR. Some sites say it does that, and some don’t.

Shame you didn’t get the old ECU back from Cliff the bodger.

That was the very first thing I asked. At this point he was still refusing to tell me who he’d been to for it so I could go to them. Yes, I know, I trusted…

but still, he’s got to make a living

That’s what the labour charge is for.

And it’s not the same as LBSes, that’s retail.

There’s the small matter of defrauding me by telling me the part cost more than it did. That’s hard to refute.

He bought something from a supplier and sold it on at a profit. Did you enter into any contract with him that prohibited this? As you say, the contract of sale between the ECU supplier and him was nothing to do with you.

Even if you try to hit him with the immoral card, he can always claim the £750 was supply and fit. Supply was £480 (inc VAT), fit was £270 (inc VAT). That’s probably less than 2 hours work at main dealer rates.

he can always claim the £750 was supply and fit

He told me it would just plug in and it’d go – no work required. Charging an hour would make a meal out of it, and he’d have to charge £270 per hour to make that work. You’ve got to be honest and open.

And where is the ECU in the car, does it require removing bits of interior to access it? “plug and go” could simply refer to his belief of electrical compatibility.

I think I’d advise not bothering with small claims court.

Can only agree with what tonyd says whole heartedly. You’ve created a situation where all you’ve done is, in trying to be cheap, created a massive headache for yourself and a whole load of woe.

Not everyone that works in the motor trade is a crook. Far from it in fact! The key to success here is knowing, and befriending people that aren’t. Whilst plenty of us are more than capable of doing an oil change, or changing the brake pads on our own cars, as soon as electrics are involved its going to have to go to someone that knows what they’re doing (and more importantly that you trust!) to get sorted.

Put it this way, as a bike mechanic, I’ll happily tackle just about anything on a bike, but if the rear shock has failed I’m not going to start taking it apart thinking “how hard can it be” and “I might learn something along the way”… It’d get sent to a specialist who would turn it around inside 3 days, good as new, and allow me to get on with other things that pay the bills! Time is money and all that…

I do sometimes laugh at the people who are so scared of having a car go wrong in their lives that they will happily pay £400 a month for the privilege of a brand new car, but then the flipside is that in running an older car, you have to be prepared that once in a while it might break down and cost a bit of money. I’ve had to cut my losses on a few cars, one lost me £1k, a couple lost me a few hundred, and one only about £100 all told. But given the problems they developed, at the time I was glad to move on rather than throw silly amounts of money at them. I’ve also spent money on the “belt and braces” approach to fixing cars before, knowing it would not be cheap, but in getting it fixed properly it would at least not go wrong again for the foreseeable.

I’m sure working in IT the number of computer faults you fix, that were indeed made worse by the operator trying to fix it themselves, is quite high no? I can tell you that a decently high percentage of other people’s bikes that I fix are problems caused by the owner having a little tinker themselves, with little or no knowledge!

Good luck with getting your money back from the rogue mechanic. May I suggest though that if you don’t have a solicitor as a friend, go down the pub tonight, get talking to one and buy him a few beers! In life it’s not what you know, but who you know that eases your path through it… I can list both a very highly skilled and trustworthy car mechanic and a very good solicitor within my circle of friends.

You’ve got to be honest and open.

No you don’t. He gave you a price and you sucked it up; he didn’t promise on his mother grave that was what the ECU cost. You should maybe have done the research up front.

Take it to VW. Pay them once it’s sorted. Otherwise you will be in this loop forever.

Here’s my tale. I had a Jag XJ8. It needed £2000 of engine work (not dealer prices, but specialist). It was worth £5000 px in tip top order. I sold it as needing attention for £4000 to a guy who still has it to this day. Got £500 discount on my new car for no px

Did I lose £1000 or save £1500? Given molgrips grasp on car-anomics I’ll be interested in how that stacks up.

Devils advocate:

– Ring supplier for new part (15 mins)
– Drive to collect new part as customer is antsy and in a rush (45 mins)
– Take the old one out (15 mins)
– Put the new one in (15 mins)
– Make sure car starts and runs OK (15 mins)
– Dispose of old unit

There’s 1hr 45mins plus the supposed cost of ‘safely disposing of’ an old part. You’re lucky he only charged you £270, which is £225 before VAT.

I think chasing this guy is too late and will prove to be more trouble than it’s worth. I also think you should just go to a VAG dealer/specialist and leave it with them til it’s fixed, swallowing the cost. It’ll cost you more in time and stress otherwise.

All my opinion of course, and you seem set on your course of action. And for that reason, a’am oot!

I am (or was) a greenhorn.

Seeing as you’re blatantly not learning anything from your very expensive lessons here, I’d say you still are!

Anyway… The mechanic was free to charge you what he wanted for the ECU. What he paid is totally inconsequential. What you should have done, was say “ok thanks, I’ll think about it and get back to you” and then get on the phone and the Internet to find a better price yourself. I’m guessing you do this with your bikes, and IT equipment at work? 😕

Molgrips car #4 – A New Hope

but the same conversation 😉

It’s possibly a bit of a trek given you’re in wales but if you’re after a tuning company that knows VAG inside out then AmD Technik who are just outside Bicester are probably worth a call.