Masts – Felling

rob8624

They come in and scar the landscape with minimum aftercare or clean up operation.

There’s a reason they leave it like that, and it’s not slackness or cheap skating.

I’ll leave it to an expert to explain.

Thinning and clear felling are unfortunately part of commercial forest managment. The biggest isdue i have with this is that its usually sub contracted out to firms on piece rate who will harvest without any regard for the trails. Privately owned woodland are usually felled way better. With damage to the hill minimised and much less scrub left.
Discussion with the land owner and GPS of all routes could result in minimising the forwarder damage?

without any regard for the trails

You mean trails that are built without any regard for the land owners management objectives / legal responsibilities?

I looked at the management plans and (assuming I’m in the right area) the hillside is predominantly pine and larch which are infected with Dothistroma and Ramorum respectively, and has large pockets of windblow (they’ve planned in open space around the top of the mast). It’s pretty clear the the crop is compromised on multiple fronts.

You only need to watch a video of the mast trails to see the amount of windblow and fallen deadwood present which is only going to get worse. If NRW don’t fell it then it’s going to fall over and the trails will be lost anyway.

If those complaining had read NRWs wild trails policy they’d understand that the presence of the trails means NRW have a level of legal liability. The fact they know the crop is unsafe doesn’t really give them much of a leg to stand on if someone gets injured. Building more trails and making the sites more popular only increases the pressure on NRW to act – and the only financially viable way is mechanised felling (but could be hand felling + winching if on steep ground).

Perhaps instead of self-entitled melodrama someone should just ask NRW what the plan is – perhaps someone who runs gravity enduro’s on NRW land instead of starting unsubstantiated instawankfests.

.Sign the petition, it won’t do anything but maybe it will raise an eyebrow.

It will only raise eyebrows the wrong way, making mtbers look childish selfish and ignorant, especially if the felling is related to tree disease and not just routine harvest/windblow prevention. Try engaging with land managers in a positive way instead, look at Tweed Valley TA etc.

“Perhaps instead of self-entitled melodrama someone should just ask NRW what the plan is – perhaps someone who runs gravity enduro’s on NRW land instead of starting unsubstantiated instawankfests”

NRW don’t even know what the plan is…

For someone heading to glyncorwygg this Friday and only just hearing about these trails can anyone say where they link in with the established network.

At the bottom of Zig Zags on the Wall turn right instead of left and head over the the 2 viaducts

They come in and scar the landscape with minimum aftercare or clean up operation.

Far from an expert here but the brash is left to rot down and return nutrients to the soil. Same with the stumps

Brash from spruce or larch takes a very long time to rot down. And it stops anything else from growing underneath. The needles can acidify the soil.
If you want natural regeneration of native broadleaf trees, best to remove most of the brash. Or at least stack it into piles, leaving some areas of clear ground.

Brash can be used for producing biomass fuels, so it is becoming more worthwhile to harvest it. Though that can cause more ground damage from vehicles and machines etc.

Ta Craig.

Awesome, many thanks

Not to mention the NRW got investigated for massive corruption to the highest levels of management, they were all ex-private tree feller employees who then sold the trees at lower than market price to their ex-employers or something. If the money got reinvested into the areas, in some obvious way i’d be a lot more happy with them destroying it. But as people have mentioned above the local economies suffer and all the “wealth” from the felled trees disappears into someone else pockets.

They say it incompetence but i doubt that.

Smart thing for NRW to do would be tidy up the trails, put a cafe at the bottom, call it a bike park and charge MTBers to take them back up the hill in a NRW van.

just crossing the viaducts to go there is pretty cool.

Buy the hill for mountain bikers?

Buy the hill for mountain bikers?

Certainly plausible. You’ll need a very motivated group to drive it forward though and a landowner who wants to sell.

they’ll still need to purchase the “crop” and clear the dying/diseased trees though.

I have a small share in this:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/mid-canterbury-selwyn/89851643/bike-methven-crowd-sources-over-100000-in-an-attempt-to-buy-mt-hutt-bike-park

If the money got reinvested into the areas

The money that the timber merchants pay NRW is essentially what funds NRW’s continued management and subsidizes other parts that don’t generate sufficient income (like MTB trails)?

And that’s before the local contractors, local hauliers, and local sawmills are all involved (ergo local economy).

The money that the timber merchants pay NRW is essentially what funds NRW’s continued management and subsidizes other parts that don’t generate sufficient income (like MTB trails)?

And that’s before the local contractors, local hauliers, and local sawmills are all involved (ergo local economy)

If only NRW knew how to manage the MTB trails properly they’d actually make a decent amount of money out of them.
eg: Annual membership to ride on NRW trails inc Wild trails that have been adopted by local community rider groups and maintained (car parking included).

They have a plan written down on how this can all happen, only problem is there’s no one in the organisation at a high level who actually knows how to implement it. Change is afoot though….

car parking

My irony meter has just died after the cannock car parking / trail mainenance thread.

It would be a shame if the trails were broken up by the felling as they provide lines that are way steeper and more technical than you’ll find in your bike parks or Trail centers.
Just out of interest , how many posters on this thread have ridden the masts?

If only NRW knew how to manage the MTB trails properly

The thing is they do. It’s just the self-entitlement of large parts of the MTB community means they think they can do everything better without even the most basic understand of what it entails.

eg: Annual membership to ride on NRW trails inc Wild trails

So the great idea is to charge people for something they can do for free at the moment?

Afan / Cwmcarn car parks + visitor centres aren’t NRW. That’s the main source of income for recreation sites – hence my point about the timber production side subsidizing other parts of the organisation.

Your more than welcome to show us ‘the plan’ and tell us what qualifies you to do it better tho…

Well, I’d say the “self entitled” mtb community HAS done very well at building and managing trails.
NRW received £118 million in public money in 2017-2018, that’s a pretty big source of income, and I think it gives us a right to say how we want to use our forests. Every tax payer in Wales funds the organisation irrespective of logging income.
And yeah, I think people would pay for a permit to ride on NRW land, even though we can do it for free.

Sustainable – nope
Provides progression – nope
Accessible – nope
Cater to all but a small minority of users – nope
Meets various legal requirements – nope

If you poke your head out of the rad enduro bubble you would realise that (going off actaul trail usage data) 95-98% of trail use is red, blue, green – that is the mass market, that is where funding is best spent for maximum impact.

There may be more people riding off-piste now but there are more people in general riding off-road – the percentages change very little.

You may think paying taxes gives you a right but it doesn’t. NRW provide an opportunity for consultation on management plans that is your opportunity to have a say but it doesn’t mean they have to do what you want and there will always be other people to consider and management objectives that they need to meet – whilst not wanting to go all Brexit thread we don’t live in a direct democracy – see my previous point on entitlement.

Large parts of the MTB community resent paying the parking charges that fund trail centres (irrespective of where it is) it’s fascicle to think people will pay for a permit to ride and even more so that you would ever be able to enforce it.

You clearly don’t ride or approve of unofficial trails, I totally respect that. The 2% will keep building them though. And I don’t agree about a lack of progression, accessibility or sustainability. No ones asking for funding, never said NRW had to do what I want, just meant they should consider the public who fund them. Can’t be bothered to argue about that or the politics though, it doesn’t penetrate my “rad enduro bubble” (that made me laugh)! FWIW I actually think NRW do a great job on all fronts, I’m not against the felling, it’s essential. But the trails in question are important and they do benefit the area, at no cost to NRW.

There is always a cost to access; it’s just demonstrating a total lack of understanding saying anything different.

They are considering the ‘public that fund them’ – by clearing dying trees so they don’t injure anyone (avoiding negligence claims which are paid from…taxes) and to establish productive habitats as per the management plan.

I’d love to see some quantitative evidence for the ‘benefits’ to the local area from these trails. I assume there is some as it keeps being used as an argument to keep them.

For claritys sake most of my riding is unofficial trails and I couldn’t count the number of trails I’ve had a hand in bringing back after harvesting. I do also have a pretty good understanding of ‘the bigger picture’ coupled with a lack of time / interest in social media hyperbole.

Carpe Diem – I ride there every week and have done so for many years, to answer your question. They are not the best trails in Afan, but some of them, certainly one of the best riding spots in Wales. I think other off piste stuff in the valley will become even more secretive that it already is as maybe the Masts has become a victim of it’s own success in a way.

sr0093193 – I kind of understand were your coming from, even though it’s disappointing that some of the hill is being felled, it’s not the end of the World, there are other place to ride, it’s a working forest, less trees to hit, I get that. Several riding spots have been felled that local riders in South Wales have established into pretty popular spots, nobody has really kicked up a fuss. I think what you misjudge, is the lack of trust towards NRW in Wales at the moment, it’s hardly a clean and clear organisation, and the amount of felling in the area does, to a lot of people (outside the mtb scene included) comes across as very excessive. The Masts should have been felled years ago, people are just asking why now? Why at it’s height of popularity? You can’t blame people for questioning it, even if the obvious answer is that the trees need to come down.

I think it’s pretty harsh to claim Charlie is starting a ‘unsubstantiated instawankfests’?……he knows the frustration riders in South Wales are facing probably better than you do when it comes to felling. All the spots at Afan, Cwmcarn, Brechfa, Loamworld, Garw, Crychan, Talybont, Pontypool, Rhondda, etc etc…..CwmRhyader is coming down this month and Barry Siddings is being felled at the start of next year. It’s pretty annoying, even if it is justified and has a big impact on areas that simply wouldn’t be visited if it wasn’t for mountainbikers. If the pen pushers at NRW don’t a petition then so be it.

And also, The Masts have been around long before Enduro was cool bro and long before the Instagram generation. Local riders have been working with NRW very closely over many years to keep the trails running, it’s not just some free for all area of woodland. Read my earlier post. That’s what hurts a tad, they are iconic trails to a lot of people that are a part of the history of mountain biking in Afan, which itself has played a big role in mountain biking over the years 🙂

Also, the main carpark (free) used for the Masts is NRW is is full every weekend.

There’s quite simple reasons why lots of sites seem to go at once – 1) ramorum has decimated larch in the western half of the UK 2) mature crops are favoured for their ease to build in which also means they are likely to be felled around the same time.

Almost every criticism is covered in the management plan from the misrepresentations about them felling 15% of the area to the reasons why normal operations have been largely put on hold for so long.

https://cdn.naturalresources.wales/about-us/what-we-do/welsh-government-woodland-estate/afan-forest-resource-plan/?lang=en

The information is freely available how much more transparent can they be.

It’s great that people are passionate about this kind of stuff but they should at least educate themselves or ask if they don’t understand.

The social media posts were turgid tabloidesque melodrama and merely act as a vehicle to perpetuate people’s own interpretations and uninformed opinions. Some of the narrative being pushed was just outright nonsense.

your trails are doomed with your attitude

listen to sr0093193!

This thread has been a really interesting read. I can appreciate it sucks to lose valued trails but being in a managed forest makes that inevitable at some point.
My wider concern (even being in another country) is that landowners and managers are going to link this case to themselves and think “wouldn’t it just be easier to discourage all trail use now rather than having to deal with all this BS in 5-10-20 years when the crop is due?”

He does make some very valid points but also makes some massive assumptions.

Speccyguy: I doubt NRW will be too worried, it’s 70 odd posts on a forum, not like people are chaining themselves to the trees! And there’s not many people really opposing what they do, or people really believing unofficial trail building will ever stop. It’s an important debate for our sport, far more relevant than 29vs27.5 or how LLS is too LLS! Trail building/access is what will really determine the future of the sport, so it’s good to see the various opinions on this.

Just come across this reply from NRW to the local Welsh Assembly member. It states that the felling will occur December to March, and includes a map of the area to be felled.

https://www.davidrees.wales/en/foel-tree-felling-nrw-response/

Over 5000 people signed a petition created by a young lad who rides the masts, shared by WGES and reached 160,000 people, Local Am has got involved. NRW must now surely see that the adoption of Wild trails by local community groups is the only way forward (following their own guidelines). Felling has to happen, that’s a given.
Being the most knowledgeable person on a forum and quietly revelling in it will never ever get anything done.
Melodrama is sometimes required to make people react. Politics rule the world, play the game…

I think landowners (in addition to and including NrW) will be pleased to read this thread and see some very well informed views. My concern is with the social media / petitions aspect which could make an unconnected landowner feel it is easier to disallow access to their land completely today instead of dealing with this kind of hassle in future.

It’s a crop. If we’re lucky to get unofficial access then we should be mindful which sectors we build in and for how long it will remain in use.

I understand it may be different in the uk. Here we have more space than anyone could ever need and not really any tradition of building/armouring trails. Just lots and lots of natural tracks so that none would be sorely missed when a sector gets harvested.

What’s the current state of the Masts trails?

Still rideable , the lines into some have had to be modified after the road was upgraded. Personally I avoid it during weekdays. Rode it a fortnight ago without seeing many up there.

All good to ride. Trees coming down end of January, supposidly.

Might head over there mid Christmas. Been riding risca a lot and fancy something different. Not massively familiar with the area. Is the previously mentioned over the two viaducts the most detailed directions?! If anyone fancies offering a bit more that would be amazing!

double post

PM me you email address and I can ping you over some routes we’ve done there in the past. Also been riding Risca a fair bit lately so perhaps we can swap notes 🙂

Little vid one of our group made there the first time we went