Lots of people refused service in a supermarket.

Please, stop telling someone to go away if they feel excluded. Why do you think that is helpful?

Can people stop accusing others, that disagree with them, of being criminals? Please?

just pause that a sec?

How did I miss this thread? I’m sorry but having not reviewed carefully just jumped page 1 to 4, we havE:

OP posts obviously fictional story guaranteed to produce a response from those who take it at face value (I won’t say the slightly naive. Oh. I did).

Discussion starts.

OP does not respond.

5 pages in and still plenty of steam. It’s definitely a high eight, if not a nine pointer (‘prophets’ probably pushes it to nine).

I am now going to check out the rivets thread hoping it’s equally er, rivetting?

Carry on…

Faerie, if you feel that interactions on this forum amount to criminal harassment, bullying or intimidation them you have every right to report it to the Police.
However, it is very important to try to break down your interpretation of what has been said, the words themselves and the potential intention behind those words, which isn’t always as simple as it sounds, and certainly isn’t helped by people repeatedly asking you to go away. From my perspective, I believe that most of the suggestions for you to leave it are said with good intentions and are simply an effort to try to help but your level of distress relating to this forum after yesterday is making it impossible for you to see this as anything other than an attack, which I’m not sure it always is.
A lot of this feels like poorly understood communication (on both sides) that has now escalated to a level of distress on your part that has me a little concerned. You are clearly very dedicated to your cause and for that I salute you, but it can take a pretty massive toll personally. I guess it might be helpful to ask yourself what you or the cause you are fighting are benefitting from these interactions as, in my experience, such heightened levels of negativity only serve to entrench people against each other.

**** hell, people think I actually meant “take up golf”. Can’t be that thick surely?

**** hell, people think I actually meant “take up golf”. Can’t be that thick surely?

ha ha ha, yeah, who’d be that daft? (slowly puts club down and backs out of golf R us)

**** hell, people think I actually meant “take up golf”. Can’t be that thick surely?

There are conditions that mean people take things literally. Nothing to do with being ‘thick’

Also, jokingly saying “if mountain biking is too white and straight for you, go do something else”, is not helping when dropped in this thread (with its reference in the title to the closed thread). It’s an attitude that’s worse elsewhere, but even here it looks like a backlash against people saying, “hey, let’s try a bit of understating, and, you know, take ownership about our hobby looking like it excludes so many people who don’t feel like they fit”.

What is there to get offended by? Who’s getting bullied? STW is about as PC & left wing as it gets.

If we’re trying to be balanced (speaking as an instinctive PC lefty hand wringer), there is such a thing and “PC & left wing” bullying. Whether or not we have a victim here I cannot say.

Personally I tend to think you’ve lost whatever flawed argument you were pursuing (my bias showing again) if you have to resort to the “I feel harassed/bullied” argument after claiming to see no issue with the marginalisation of certain groups of people from a different background to your own. One minute you can’t stand whingers, the next you are subject to unfair censorship and bullying yourself? It’s worth considering if you’re just being challenged, because all ideas should get challenged…

And I’ve found you’ll get challenged here more than many other places on the interweb.
STW ain’t Facebook or twitter where you can define and refine your echo chamber till it’s just other voices telling you how correct you are all the time…
Its is a pretty basic format forum (like much of the internet used to be) with just two channels where we either discuss ‘bicycles’ or ‘everything else’. There’s no demographic filtering (although you might suppose it tends towards people who like MTBs), basically anyone can have a login, the only real backstop for poor behaviour is the mods and they’re pretty tolerant on the whole IMO…
Don’t forget this is a commercially funded corner of the interweb still and angry shouty “debates” only works for so long when you want CRC & Co. to pay to advertise their dandyhorses on your site….

But you know what, you do have the kernel of a point.
Sometimes those of us reacting (overreacting?) to what we perceive to be Trolls, Bigots or general purpose unthinking Oafs probably could stand to tone it down… I know I have certainly gone too far and been (rightly) pulled up for it in the past.

I think these topics almost inevitably descend into circular arguments and pointless bun fights as people get wound up… knowing when to “walk away” or simply evacuate to the bike forum is a useful skill.
Maybe rather than a blanket thread closures or account bans/suspensions when stuff gets a bit aggressive/personal/heated we should have better ‘timeout’ options?
So Mods is there a way for you to block an individual user from posting on just one specific thread or maybe just the chat forum for say 24-48hrs?

Anyway back to the topic, and following on from the Buzzfeed article are there any other similarly minor events that people know of that have been spun out to create a disproportionate amount of Clickbait and social meeja repost material? And how much could be construed as Left wing Vs Right wing propaganda?

I’m sort of fascinated by how we are all influenced/persuaded/lied to today. It’s not new but it is more refined I think.
And I have to resist the urge to think it’s only targeted towards those with right of centre views… Us lefties are equally susceptible IMO.

Discuss…

Not just our government that seems destined not to learn from mistakes in recent history….🤦‍♂️

are there any other similarly minor events that people know of that have been spun out to create a disproportionate amount of Clickbait and social meeja repost material?

“ Winterval “ has to be the classic example.

http://www.snopes.com have loads

There are conditions that mean people take things literally. Nothing to do with being ‘thick’

There are conditions that mean people take things literally and other conditions where people pick and choose what to take literally and what to view as a personal attack.

I certainly am no expert but one of these requires proper medical intervention not just understanding.
NEITHER of these is anyone’s fault…. there is no blame but based on personal experience of F&F if you can’t see when someone is actually supporting you it’s time to get help that cannot possibly be provided on a bike forum.

Just to be clear I haven’t told anybody to go away. And merely asked 2 relevant questions.

^^^^ cookeaa makes some very good points

Often it’s not the inciting incident that brings out people’s prejudices, it’s the reaction.

For what it’s worth, I didn’t think faerie was being bullied when she first brought it up.

However, after a dozen or so white males jumped in to explain to her why she was wrong I changed my mind. We have an autistic woman of colour saying she feels like she is being piled on. The reaction, a bunch of white males pile on.

This place may be left leaning but it is certainly not diverse. Accept that others have a completely different perspective to you and that sometimes you just have to let someone be wrong on the internet.

And no, ‘At least we’re not pistonheads.com’ is not something to congratulate yourself on.

Participation is not mandatory.

About the only useful thing said, it isnt actually mandatory is it? Even if it was “selectively quoted” there seems to be a lot of cut and paste to validate happens around here.

My gaff my rules does not apply to anyone here excepth the site owner no?

Just to be clear I haven’t told anybody to go away. And merely asked 1 relevant question. Which if I elaborate more is that “the supposed victim” has already previously held an account , was he/she banned or did they leave of their own accord, they are now posting under a second account so will have signed up yet again willingly? Therefore they must either have some use for the interaction and counsel of the mebers here or is a complete sadist for putting up with in their opinion what appears to be cycber bullying.

As for cyber bullying this would be a prime opportunity to report it to the police??

“if mountain biking is too white and straight for you, go do something else”, is not helping when dropped in this thread

It was more about the “being ashamed” bit as far as I recall when I posted it. Don’t care enough to read back, I’m afraid.

Personally, I’m hugely grateful for kilo’s absolutely brilliant comment. It does seem to me that this thread is now just continuing the other, closed, thread. My vote would go to framing kilo’s comment for all the posterity it deserves and shutting this down before it gets like the other one. I don’t think anything useful is going to come out of this now, and to be honest I didn’t really think it would when I read the first post either, but kilo proved me wrong. I really doubt that can happen again now, though.

However, after a dozen or so white males jumped in

Pretty presumptuous.
Not for me to say who but I’m certain at least one of them doesn’t fit into that description.

Blimey this has kicked off since I last dipped in at “prophets”. Just poured a coffee but I’m out of biscuits.

Pretty presumptuous.
Not for me to say who but I’m certain at least one of them doesn’t fit into that description.

What, you mean a whole entire person amongst the multitude who jumped in wasn’t a white male?

Well, that changes everything. All my points are invalidated. Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the forum and please feel free to continue explaining to minorities why they are wrong.

DEzB:
**** hell, people think I actually meant “take up golf”. Can’t be that thick surely?

As the person both your golf comment and the “can’t be that thick” one was aimed at… well it seems like i took what you said literally I mean how else can I take 3 or 4 words with no further justification? Am I thick or did you say something ill timed and poorly thought out? I simply said some of the views here (and within wider biking recently) make me ashamed to be associated with riding bikes, your response was well go do something else. I made a comment about being inclusive and you took that as an opportunity to be uninclusive.

If were we talking face to face I would expect an apology after those comments.

DezB:

It was more about the “being ashamed” bit as far as I recall when I posted it. Don’t care enough to read back, I’m afraid.

I fail to see how recent comments about inclusivity from here and the wider bike community cannot make you feel ashamed. Just read peoples comments about DK stopping production of the general lee frame, recent Wideopen article about our sport being inclusive or even the flack Cotic got for a post Cy made… Hell even go back a few weeks when Singletrack made their stance public. I don’t want people with those view in a sport I love so much. For me its like accepting racist people in football. These views are not acceptable… but then again maybe im just “thick.”

I’m sort of fascinated by how we are all influenced/persuaded/lied to today. It’s not new but it is more refined I think.
And I have to resist the urge to think it’s only targeted towards those with right of centre views… Us lefties are equally susceptible IMO.

Discuss…

There are two ways you can tackle debate on pretty much anything. You either go in “high” and offer up an idea to be challenged and tested, genuinely wanting to hear alternatives to your argument. You take in feedback and refine or change your point of view based on new information or other sides to an argument. You stand as an advocate for your idea but you are prepared to move away from it. Through debating a point everyone involved in the discussion learns a little bit more and the original argument or point is improved.

It actually happens on here a fair bit, but happens more often when the topic is bike geometry than politics.

The other way you tackle a “debate” is with a fixed starting position that you “know” is correct and will never change. Debate, such as it is, basically involves shouting down anyone who disagree, such that opposing views are non-existent. Your classic echo chamber. Everyone involved ends up a little bit dumber as a result and nothing new is ever learned.

Social media and the whole “if you liked this you’ll love this” algorithm driven method of showing you content guarantees that echo chambers form and are reinforced. But its also a basic human behavior to want to see content you agree with. Having your ideas constantly challenged is hard work.

I don’t think there is anything inherently right versus left on any of this behavior. People that hold left wing views can just as easily fall into echo chambers on a particular topic.

What we do have though is a predominantly right wing media so this type of clickbaity shit stirring is always going to have a mainly right wing slant.

It’s funny how this place is a lefty-liberal bastion as long as the people talking to each other are from the same demographic.

And yet as soon as a woman of colour says the wrong thing she gets a torrent of whitesplaing and mansplaining to correct her.

Like I said, often it’s not the inciting incident you need to look at to understand if prejudice is a factor, it’s the reactions.

So Mods is there a way for you to block an individual user from posting on just one specific thread or maybe just the chat forum for say 24-48hrs?

We can and do issue temporary bans. We don’t have any sort of granular control but I’m not sure that such a thing would be desirable – if we had to suspend someone for a couple of days for their own good or to give them time off to calm down and to think, and we only did that selectively, they’d be in another thread continuing the argument before we’d let go of the “send” button.

In this particular case I’ve stepped back from moderating and left it to the rest of the team / admin to deal with, not least for my own sanity. As demonstrated on the previous thread, whatever I say or do will be twisted and presented as wrong. My “fandom” comment on the previous page referring to someone mixing Star Wars and Star Trek references in the previous post got reported as “moderator harassment.” No doubt this post will too. So as a wise computer once said, they only way to win is not to play.

We have an autistic woman of colour

I may be wrong but she is not “of colour” as far as I am aware, though her partner is. And she’s not the only one on the spectrum but that doesn’t seem to matter.

Sometimes those of us reacting (overreacting?) to what we perceive to be Trolls, Bigots or general purpose unthinking Oafs probably could stand to tone it down… I know I have certainly gone too far and been (rightly) pulled up for it in the past.

A lot of good points in that wider post as well, but people do seem to be going in harder, or not taking a moment to think and review before pressing “submit”

I certainly am no expert but one of these requires proper medical intervention not just understanding.

Well I am kind of an expert (at least where autism is concerned) and yes, sometimes autistic people do benefit from medical intervention. But that doesn’t mean that being autistic requires a medical response in and of itself. In actual fact, it is wider understanding that has the greatest possible positive impact on autistic people and those around them.
There’s responsibility on both sides when we are conversing between autistic and neorotypical people. It is the responsibility of neurotypical people to understand that autistic people might misunderstand what we are trying to say, whether this be through taking everything literally or just totally misreading intent and to try to adjust our language or clarify our intent when misunderstanding occurs.
It is the responsibility of the autistic person to try to be as self-aware as possible when trying to interpret social communication and to be honest when they are not finding things clear or to ask people why they have said what they said.
Unfortunately, this is the internet, where all the usual rules of social interaction go a bit off and misunderstandings can quickly blow up into conflict, paranoia and abuse.
Another difficulty is that successful social communication for autistic people can only really happen consistently where this understanding exists from the get-go, meaning that they would have to start all new social interactions with an essay somewhat along the lines of what I’ve just written, which is obviously not practical.
Autism is also experienced on a very individual basis and what seem like subtle differences can have massively varied outcomes when it comes to social interaction.
I think some of faerie’s problems on his forum might stem from these sorts of difficulties with social interaction, difficulties that won’t go away no matter how much medical intervention you throw at them. They are difficulties that need to be accommodated as much as is reasonable to do so, which is often bloody hard for all involved.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with either Tesco or Muslims so…

And yet as soon as a woman of colour says the wrong thing she gets a torrent of whitesplaing and mansplaining to correct her.

I genuinely have not read this in either of the threads. Just really not seeing that this is what happened. I saw a viewpoint being challenged and possibly tempers flaring a bit from a couple of individuals. If genuine cyber bullying has taken place then report it to the authorities, let the experts decide.

And she’s not the only one on the spectrum but that doesn’t seem to matter.

FWIW, I’m not trying to have a go at you. I think you got drawn into an exchange where meaningful dialogue broke down and it was never going to have a good resolution.

What annoyed me was your ‘supporters’ who felt the need to jump in. It didn’t do anything to help resolve the conflict and eventually turned into a pile on.

I don’t want to get drawn into what started it all. What has disturbed me is the reaction.

If genuine cyber bullying has taken place then report it to the authorities, let the experts decide.

I think we should be aiming a bit higher than just not doing anything illegal.

Life is not like it is in the stories. Sometimes the bad guys win. Sometimes nobody wins. We won’t necessarily live happy ever after. Sometimes there is literally nothing that can be done to make things better. This thread is like that. Surely it would be better to stop it now – and resist the temptation to restart it elsewhere?

FWIW, I’m not trying to have a go at you.

Yeah, I didn’t think you were. My point was just a reminder that it applies to both parties in this debacle if anyone is suggesting it as a factor in anything.

What annoyed me was your ‘supporters’ who felt the need to jump in.

Some of that wasn’t helpful I agree. But some of it was clearly intended to be constructive feedback yet it all got lumped together.

Twenty reported posts and counting on this thread, incidentally (not all by the same person.)

What, you mean a whole entire person amongst the multitude who jumped in wasn’t a white male?

Just one I know in person….
Whenever I meet anyone for MTB related stuff (riding, buying) I don’t remember if any ever identified by race or gender except by pronouns or a first name.
Neither would I ask or care….most self identify by what they are riding or what’s on the back of the car.

please feel free to continue explaining to minorities why they are wrong

Who said anyone was wrong? Except for your pre-judged view of of someones ethnicity or gender.

Yes there are bigots out there… but judging every “white male” as a bigot is wrong.
FYI:
My then 7yr old got told by his previous school female, white teacher he’d be “being sent home” after brexit.
His best friend at school got told Hinduism isn’t a real religion by a minority female teacher.

Is either of these better or worse than the other?

Twenty reported posts and counting on this thread, incidentally (not all by the same person.)

I can quite believe it: Lemon shortbread, I ask you…

Oi! I resemble that comment about the shortbread!

You’re both crackers.

Who said anyone was wrong?

Read the other thread. Lots of people were explaining to her why she was wrong.

The first person can justifiably say they were offering constructive criticism. Maybe even the second.

The eighth person has to really ask themselves if what they are saying is actually adding anything to the conversation or just piling on after everyone else has jumped in already.

If it’s not adding anything then it’s just bullying.

I blame working from home. No-one had the time to get into this level of debate when they had to flick back to an Excel workbook every time their boss came back in to the office

I think we should be aiming a bit higher than just not doing anything illegal.

I don’t think anything illegal has occurred. That’s my point. If it has then it should be investigated by people who know better than you or I don’t you think?

Also some illegal things are fun 😉

fin25

Well I am kind of an expert (at least where autism is concerned) and yes, sometimes autistic people do benefit from medical intervention.

As I said, I’m not an expert but I really classed autistic spectrum as the not needing medical intervention, even though that is an over generalisation.

I’m not going to jump into amateur diagnoses but being on the spectrum doesn’t preclude other issues, indeed it can actually mask them.

I don’t think anything illegal has occurred. That’s my point. If it has then it should be investigated by people who know better than you or I don’t you think?

My point is that I don’t think the slogan of the STW community should be, ‘It may be morally dubious but it’s not illegal’

I’d like to think we could be more inclusive than that 🙂