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USCG seem to be packing in the search for these poor sods very quickly in my eyes. They say the visibility was down to 1 mile so how do they know they've covered the search area thoroughly?
Looking at the [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27473507 ]pic of what may be the boat[/url] to seem the keelbolts have snapped and the keel has dropped off. This would mean the boat going upside down pretty quickly but the crew knew there was a leak somewhere (keelbolts starting to let go) and would very likely all been on deck with all the survival kit ready to go.
Certainly hope the USCG give in and start looking again even if it was to find the hull and see if the liferaft is still on board or not.
Sure I heard somewhere that there was a petition going with 17k signatures (?) already, trying to get the search reinstated.
They said when one emergency beacon ran out the next one was set off, indicating they are in a position to do so. IE in a raft. Hope they turn up safe sonewhere
I don't know much about it (for which read - anything), but I have an image in my head of them bobbing about in ferocious seas in a lifeboat trying to gee up each other's spirits by saying "it's only been two or three days, they'll still be looking". 🙁
95k already signed..
As I've said before in the Malaysian 777 thread, if only we still had Nimrods, the new ones were going to be brilliant but unfortunately Whitehall seen fit to cut them up when they were ready to enter service and the crews were trained, shocking decision for an island nation, as it is we can't go looking for this crew.
It's sad to say, but if there was enough time for the crew to prepare for abandonment in a controlled manner, they would have got into the liferaft fully suited up and with an EPIRB (satellite tracked radio beacon gizmo). The location would be known, and the search would continue until they were found/not found at the indicated position.
I have an image in my head of them bobbing about in ferocious seas in a lifeboat trying to gee up each other's spirits by saying "it's only been two or three days, they'll still be looking"
Me too - makes me very sad. Of course we all realise that the search has to be called-off at some point, but doing so this early feels a bit brutal.
I can't help thinking that if the UK were giving-up this early on some lost Americans, there would be a full-scale diplomatic incident.
^^^^^^
This
Robin Knox Johnston brought some balance when he said the US Coast Guard know what they are doing, if they have decided to call the search off we have to respect that.
From what I have read there where two (Personal Locator Beacons) PLB signals, a PLB is a simple beacon generally without an accurate GPS position. They rely on triangulation fro satellites. Also those signals where lost. a PLB lasts for about 24 hours. It's notable that the articles did not refer to EPIRBS, an EPRIB is more sophisticated device with accurate GPS position and 48hr + battery life.
Also I saw the life raft was a 12 person one. 4 people in a 12 person liferaft is not ideal as the surviors cannot brace themselves together and the raft has a large wind area and with just 4 people is likely to be tossed around very violently in bad weather. The motion of people being thrown against it can destroy the raft.
The US coast guard seem to have searched for longer than the PLB beacon would have lasted (over 30 hours) without picking up a PLB signal and longer than they believed these men could have survived.
This is certainly very distressing, I have good friends who have raced with some of these sailors, but it appears they have perished.
It must be terrible for the families but it seems unlikely anyone has survived.
if only we still had Nimrods
The new MRA4 Nimrods were £800 million over budget and nearly 10 years late.
They still had major issues and problems and it was still not clear if some of the safety issues could of been sorted in a reasonable time.
They are probably the best example of crap MoD procurement and another cash cow for BAE.
They may have been 10 years late but they were on the verge of being ready, problem was trying to put modern wings on an old fuselage, I think the two carriers and F35s will be a bigger waste of money.
Tragic but I guess they knew the risks, and were doing what they loved.
Not sure the OP was the right person to start the thread.....
It must be awful for the families not knowing.
What fascinates me is how this story is the second lead on the Today Programme.
As far as I can see, unless you are able to put forward a survival time model which gives in excess of 53 hours, you're calling for coastguard resources to be wasted when other people who are more likely to benefit may need them.
[url= http://www.uscgnews.com/go/doc/4007/2165286/ ]USCG statement[/url]
I heard someone on the radio talking about this; and he commented that the coast guard know what they are doing, so whilst the families hope they are still alive, the coast guard has kept looking for 2 1/2 times longer than they felt the people would have lasted.
Brutal, but the sea is pretty unforgiving.
Not sure the OP was the right person to start the thread.....
Eh? Why?
[edit] Oh right...... Hmmm.
They may have been doing what they loved and it is a shocker, but I'll tell you what, there's no way I'd get on a First 40.7 to cross the Atlantic - especially a boat that seems to have had a fair bit of use in its life. I suspect it's a charter boat and if so the charter company will/should be nervous right now.
Your name?
Sorry, my inappropriate and warped sense of humour
Username perhaps, tenuous connection imho.
Sad for the families undoubtably but sailing even minor seas is hazardous nevermind transatlantic crossings. I think those best placed to decide are the USCG - 100K people without any nautical qualifications and or survival experience stirred up by the media is not a reason for professionals to resume their search, perhaps putting others in jeapardy
As a UK boat the MCA (Maritime and Coast Guard Agency) will probably do a report, it will take time but will be informative. I'd like to know whether they had an EPIRB or only the PLB's. A quote form the family said they had set one beacon off first and the second after the battery went on the first which is smart and shows they where alive at that point, equally a family quote said the PLBs weren't waterproof which has to be wrong unless they weren't ones meant for sailing but landbased only which makes no sense.
Sad times.
@surrounded - I know many people who have signed the petition have a very large amount of sailing experience, who've done many ocean passages and have all the formal qualifications and training too.
there's no way I'd get on a First 40.7 to cross the Atlantic
+1
100K people without any nautical qualifications and or survival experience
A sweeping statement and probably wrong (I have qualifications).
(I have qualifications)
What? A RYA ticket?
That hardly qualifies someone to plan SAR or to manage SAR assets.
It's all very sad but why should these resources to be used on what appears to be a lost cause?
All a bit late now, even if it wasn't before - now over 2 days since they called off the search, over 100 hours since the distress call. At what point do they give up the search?
I have an RYA ticket somewhere as well.
It's all very sad but why should these resources to be used on what appears to be a lost cause?
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/9/newsid_2518000/2518229.stm ]Quite simply because things like this can happen[/url]
So when do you give up? A week? A month? A year?
The USCG only have finite resources.
Besides Bullimore survived in his hull, not in a liferaft. The chances of 4 people surviving in a 12 man raft in those weather conditions are very slight.
I think theres some piece of info missing that we're not being told (or I'm not aware of), as far as I know its possible to survive on a liferaft for many days/weeks if you know what you're doing, and have the right equipment, and a bit of luck which these guys do.
So why are the USCG assuming they would only have lasted 20 hours?
I'm a bit torn on this , you have to assume that the USCG are exceptionally experienced in these matters, so it must be the right call the drop the search, but it seems odd to assume just 20 hours survival time.
PS - another RYA ticket holder here - also have a liferaft on our boat similar to what they will be using.
Besides Bullimore survived in his hull, not in a liferaft. The chances of 4 people surviving in a 12 man raft in those weather conditions are very slight
bah blah blah......
How do you know they're not in the hull?
as far as I know its possible to survive on a liferaft for many days/weeks if you know what you're doing, and have the right equipment, and a bit of luck which these guys do
It's a bit more complicated than that. For that to be the case you would pretty much need the raft to be full and for the weather to be kind. From the BBC article the raft was designed for 12 people. The 15ft waves high winds and cold weather will have worked against them too.
there's no way I'd get on a First 40.7 to cross the Atlantic
Whilst not the pinacle of offshore design, it's hardly a bad choice (in the scale of things people have chosen to cross the atlantic in). Designed by Bruce Farr, lower SA/displacement ratio than most similar modern designs, etc.
A better choice than a mini, and I really want to have a play in a mini!
I think theres some piece of info missing that we're not being told (or I'm not aware of), as far as I know its possible to survive on a liferaft for many days/weeks if you know what you're doing, and have the right equipment, and a bit of luck which these guys do.
A life raft is only really at it's best when full to give them some stability, they were 1/3rd full. 4 people in a 12 man raft in a storm in the atlantic would be like trying to survive in a bouncy castle in a giant washing machine.
I too have that nagging doubt that there are four people in a raft giving it "don't worry, it will take few days to be found"... 😐
But I agree that USCG will have more information than is being shared publicly for some reason. I have very limited (ocean) sailing experience, but having been in one big blow on a very dark night, I would hate to think about how the hell you would get into a (blooming big) liferaft that is being blown and swept away in chuffing big waves, in the dark....
A better choice than a mini, and I really want to have a play in a mini!
IMO you'd be better off in a Mini than a 40.7 - in a Mini you'd likely have better safety kit too.
If you want a sail in a Mini and are willing to give a few quid to the skipper to help with is campaign costs I can arrange a sail on the South Coast or in Brittany for you.
Also 4 people in a 12 person raft isn't optimal, you'd be safer in a 4 or 6 person raft.
We shouldn't judge or speculate on the actions of the others in what was undoubtably a very difficult situation but when Pete Goss rescued Raphael Dinnelli in the the Southern Ocean he was stood on his capsized hull, he decided that was safer than getting into his liferaft and he would have had a really tough raft meant for 1 person and a survival suit. It's very very sad to see the upturned hull found but no raft.
Without wishing to go into the grisly details, do we know what the 20 hours is based on? The cold? Physical trauma? They would have food and water in the life raft, I guess?
Like I said, I know nowt about it, so I have to bow to the USCG's superior knowledge, but it still makes me sad that they stopped looking. 🙁
I've done that crossing 7 times, a couple of times in large cruisers with TV's and Showers on in the ARC delivery trips, and the others were to take friends boats over for racing events such as this one, Antigua Week et all. I've also done it in a Bendytoy 37.7 and it's fine, get's a bit tight on space but enough space for three (normal delivery crew number, One on watch, one on half watch and one sleeping). Largest racing yacht was a Kerr 70 which was brutally fast and bone shakingly numbing but great fun downwind with the kite up.
Thing is, doesn't matter how you prepare, how meticulous you are, sometimes accidents like this happen. It’s not unknown for keels to fall off, take a look at some race histories and you’ll find loads littered with cause of accident “keel fell off”, when they go, they go. Boats will tend to sit upturned for a few hours until the cockpit fills with water, but if it’s rough then slapping waves will fill it much quicker as it bounces and squeezes the air out and sucks water in, then as the cockpit fills it’ll sink.
I’ve been lucky in that I’ve never experienced one dropping off, but do know once it starts to wobble you make damn sure you are prepared for the next unplanned boat manoeuvre as it falls over.
Experienced crews know the drill, they would have been prepared for this eventuality and I’m hoping they hopped into the life raft and are bobbing along waiting for collection somewhere. It’s a bit odd that we’ve not been told about EPIRB’s pinging, but that’s not unusual. What’s a little odd is the container ship passing but not stopping to see if anyone was onboard the upturned hull of the boat they passed, normally any vessel would take a GPS plot and at least the name of the boat and report it in. This they may have done and the USCG may have got this info and coupled with what they’ve done already decided to call it quits. You may think this is a bit too soon, I do a little too but hey they are well versed in Ocean rescue, well versed.
As for racing across the Atlantic, ay it gets a bit bumpy, can on occasion be butt clenching, but on the whole it’s a bit boring. You get into a routine pretty quickly once out of sight of land then all that’s around you is nothing but sea and you end up being possessed by weather patterns, which can be both fun and frustrating, so too fellow crew members as it happens.
My thought’s always go out to the crew in situations like this. They were doing what they loved and good on them for that, if I went doing the same thing then I’d be happy knowing that I went doing what I love however when you are doing it it never crosses your mind.
But heres hoping they’re still with us.
It's very very sad to see the upturned hull found but no raft.
Who's to say that it's not still on the boat and one or more of the crew inside the hull.
This is what annoys me - the USCG [b]seem to[/b] have assumed that they jumped in the liferaft whereas maybe they didn't have time (it was windy and the keel fell off... boat would be over pretty quickly). At least if they had sent a ship to check the hull and found no-one and the liferaft gone then fair enough call off the search.
BBC:
The UK coastguard says it believes its US counterpart has done everything it could in the search for four Britons missing after their yacht apparently capsized in the Atlantic Ocean.
That will be that then - USGC will not be trying again. RIP guys.
Very sad news.
Reminded me of the incredible story of [url=
Callahan[/url] ([url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Callahan ]wikipedia[/url]). Hoping they are still out there somewhere and someone spots them.
I've read a few of the books about people surviving long periods after abandoning ship, 115 days adrift etc. One key feature is that have been in warm waters (Pacific) and they have been in small boats not liferafts. Liferafts don't stay inflated that long. Yes they have pumps but in bad weather they will get torn apart and they deflate. They are designed to be a short term "home". After stormy weather and 36 hours I wound not expect a liferaft to be afloat.
I've done a couple of trans-Atlantics on smaller sailing yachts and I just hope to god that either this is going to turn into one of those amazing survival stories or that I sincerely hope the poor devils didn't / don't suffer too much.
The very thought of this honestly sends shivers down my spine.
USCG have taken the search back up again..
Good luck to them. If you think the worlds a small place go offshore in a boat and start sinking. It soon looks very big again. I hope they have a happy ending.
Good on 'em. Give them a fighting chance at least.
The petition was also pushed hard by the Sailing Anarchy web site which some of you may know of. If you don't it's basically it's a pretty US-centric bunch of very noisy and argumentative sailors who pee quite a lot of people off (.... sound familiar?) - the feeling on there was that the USGC should never have stopped in the first place.
A few top Yotters use that SA site don't they? DC was on there and so too RC..
I used to follow it but jeeze the tirade when IAAC Boats went from 90ft'ers to Multis was unbearable..
Based on what I've seen on yachts, I wonder how current their EPIRB was and when their liferaft was last thoroughly checked. Fingers crossed for them.
A few top Yotters use that SA site don't they? DC was on there and so too RC..
Yup, a lot of guys read but don't post too. I've wasted a lifetime on there, gladly.
Looks like the US Coastguard have found the boat's upturned hull.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27551917
😐
Well thats good news, could be sad news but at least they've found the boat. Hoping they get a diver to go under it to see if there's anyone in the cockpit or if the life rafts been let loose.
😕
I'd say given the few days of good conditions that the liferaft would have been found if it was still afloat.
🙁
Seems surprising that they threw a surface swimmer in to check the hull when they would have had time for a diver to get ready to go straight away.
The yacht's keel was also broken, causing a breach in the hull
Sort of surprised at this - make me wonder if the original capsize may not have been caused by the keel dropping off and maybe they were rolled and weakened bolt then gave way causing the keel to fall onto the hull.
They now expect to find the rest of the vessel soon, the spokesman added.
Eh? what 'rest of the hull'?
Yeah I read that, seems odd.. maybe they mean the mast/sail etc..
The keel could have struck a submerged object, who knows. I just hope the search will go on longer now they have found something. Hopefully when they get a diver in they won't just find bodies.
They put a diver in, it was confirmed that the liferaft was still stowed on deck, the windows were smashed, and the cabin completely flooded. The photos show the keel actually ripped part of the hull structure off when it came away.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27551917
It's little wonder, looking at those photos, that it was so difficult finding her, she's the same colour underneath as the surrounding ocean; I'm astounded they found her at all. Amazing search effort by US Navy, Coastguard, US Air Force, Canadian military and RAF, as well as any number of ships and smaller vessels. Finding her in 20,000 sq miles of open ocean's worse than looking for a needle in a haystack.
A sad outcome, but at least the families have closure.
Oh dear. Well at least there can no be no doubt.
You would have thought that the crew would have been wearing saftey harnesses given that it was bowing at the time the keel came off - but it seems they were thrown clear when the boat capsized and couldn't get back to the liferaft.
Also surprised they didn't have the raft ready to go.
So sad, sad indeed. But as ever those that were in the area turned around to lend a hand in the search, shows just how close the sailing community is and always will be.
Not wanting to make speculation I just hope that they would have had a few minutes together before it turned upside down, being with friends at this time is the most precious of moments.
😕
Looking at the pic of the hull, it appears there were only 4 bolts holding the keel.
Seems a bit inadequate to me.
More bolts = more holes. Less holes in a boat, the better.
Truly tragic and I feel for the relatives, friends, loved ones.
As an ex blue water sailor, faith in your boat is paramount and to have the keel tear off like that in the prevailing conditions at the time, it would have turned over within a blink of an eye, so even if they were all on deck, which they probably were as they had reported a water ingress situation, the opportunity to release the raft would have been very small. Scary stuff.
Impressive searching from the US, Canadian, UK search and rescue teams and the ARC boats and commercial shipping. Just such a shame that the find was not a more uplifting one.
I wonder if there are any repercussions on the charter company? Certainly going to hit the value of First 40.7's for sale out there.
Possibly too many variables and unknowns for liability type repercussions? Do Stormforce have anymore 407's? If so, I guess they'll be being checked now. As has been suggested earlier, if they hit a semi-submerged container, or the boat had been run aground at some point, then the cause would be easier to identify/explain but without the log, difficult/impossible to ascertain
As it is, unfortunately the keel is now a couple of miles down and the USCG have stated they don't do salvage and I doubt an assessor would want to go look.
I daresay the travel-hoists will be busy over the next few weeks.
The container ship found the hull a week ago but had no means of putting anyone into the water to check, that's dangerous work and they wouldn't have had the right gear anyway.
Sad news re the life raft but it is very unlikely it would still be afloat anyway
slackalice - Member
More bolts = more holes. Less holes in a boat, the better...
True enough. I owned a gaff rigged ketch for several years and I was paranoid about maintenance on through hull fixings.
However, 4 bolts all in a straight line looks like trouble waiting to happen to me. Lose one and suddenly you have only 75% left, so basically it would be like a zip. If that was my boat I would have wanted more bolts, and with an offset pattern.
Then again I would probably not be driving the boat in those sort of seas, I would have had a sea anchor out. However racing sailors are much bolder than me. 🙂
It's a sad loss, but they died doing what they love. Pretty hard to beat that as a way to go.
Yep. Dying with your lungs filling with water must be the best way to go.
eddiebaby - Member
Yep. Dying with your lungs filling with water must be the best way to go.
You know fine what sentiment I was expressing.
yes he did and that reflects poorly on him and not you